Thread: 2H vs DW frost

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  1. #21
    Math is super-hard! Oh, man. You are the gift that keeps on giving. Please, keep talking.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Keep it civil, please

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan017 View Post
    Math is super hard apparently.

    If I get off X number of spells during an encounter. And another DK in the same gear gets off Y number of spells where Y=X-25 due to empty globals from RNG then I do more damage.
    So a Mage spamming Ice Lance does more damage than one casting Frostbolts?

    Hint: different abilities hit for different amounts, so your blanket argument does not work. One ability at 25 damage with four hits
    is the same as another ability at 100 damage one time.

  4. #24
    2H Frost is superior on single target encounters. It is also slightly further ahead than shown on sims because of the incalculable human error involved with play the difficult spec that is Masterfrost. However, like Ivan said, if you have a 2H weapon that is 13 ilevels higher than the 2 blue 1Hs you have, 2H is superior for a fight like Stone Guard H simply by altering your stat priorities to haste>mastery>crit instead of haste>crit>mastery.

    I'll be playing DW because I didn't get Starshatter Week 1, our damn Ret got it

  5. #25
    I feel like people are also leaving a pretty big element out of this discussion: personal preference. Some people just prefer one over the other. I like seeing big Oblit crits, so I play 2H.

  6. #26
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosluoc View Post
    I feel like people are also leaving a pretty big element out of this discussion: personal preference. Some people just prefer one over the other. I like seeing big Oblit crits, so I play 2H.
    Not really, the point is, personal preference triumphs any argument. If you don't like it, no one can force you to do it. People that ask what is better want a mathematical approach or at least talk about what the specs toolkit brings that's beneficial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mummbles View Post
    Being born in this day in age just seems like a giant teaser.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nye View Post
    Not really, the point is, personal preference triumphs any argument. If you don't like it, no one can force you to do it. People that ask what is better want a mathematical approach or at least talk about what the specs toolkit brings that's beneficial.
    While personal preference is very important, spec performance is equally so. If you really enjoy spec A, but it's way behind spec B, will you keep on Aing? Or will you bite the bullet to help your guild and go with spec B?

    I don't consider myself a tank per se, but I've MT'd for my guild for over a year. Why? Because we had no tanks. I even became a raid leader (another position I'm not quite comfortable with) just so that we could keep on raiding. Granted, most of my guild know each other IRL, but we've all met through the game. That's why I'll play what's best, not what I really like at the time.
    Last edited by Kraeth; 2012-10-07 at 02:09 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nye View Post
    Not really, the point is, personal preference triumphs any argument. If you don't like it, no one can force you to do it. People that ask what is better want a mathematical approach or at least talk about what the specs toolkit brings that's beneficial.
    Or people want to find out exactly how much they are gimping themselves by going with personal preference :P

    I PvP, 2h has better single-target as well as burst, and most targets don't wear Plate. But most importantly, Zin'Rokh. Level 60 version, muhuhaha~
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  9. #29
    Can blizzard please remove the stupid hair from the s12 helmet?

  10. #30
    Looking back on my dps, I am playing right now 2H Frost with a ilvl 463 hc drop weapon but I sometime mess my rotation a bit, still need more practice. My gear is decent I would say, about ilvl 474 stacking strg/haste as requested after hit cap/expertise. Thing is I also have in my bags ilevel 463 hc drop weapons for DW. I have played DW frost in ICC25 and did very good, but then haven't played on my DK until MoP as I used my resto shaman as main.

    So the question is, is it worth trying out DW with reforging some gear for max mastery? I mean did the rotation change that much, last time I checked in late Cata masterfrost was spamming HoB.

    ps: I have seen some very good geared masterfrost DK's (past ilvl 480) right now pulling insane dps on AoE friendly bosses and good on single target bosses.

  11. #31
    DW frost (masterfrost) is certainly harder than 2H frost, and less forgiving if you make mistakes. That doesnt mean its superhard though, 2H is just really simple :P
    Masterfrost has some perks though, like decent damage from range and obviously the cleaving. You deal about 15-20% of your singletarget damage to every 2nd target. (going by logs from my guilds dw frost dk)

  12. #32
    Is it still weapon dependent? Like if you have very good 1h weapons (ilvl 483+). Since 1h conquest weapons are cheaper and Elegon might drop one as well, if not the 2h drops from him. I know that in this first weeks you mostly spec depending on what gear you get or can get via crafting/BMAH/AH. That's why I am asking. Right now im deep into haste 2H like 5300+ haste but on some fight (the AoE friendly oens) I pull good but not top damage.

    ps: Taking a look at T14 pieces (got the pants already) they are about +300 more into mastery then haste, so maybe DW will be most viable down the road also.
    Last edited by naturestorm; 2012-10-11 at 06:57 AM.

  13. #33
    The Patient Cerunnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan017 View Post
    Math is super hard apparently.

    If I get off X number of spells during an encounter. And another DK in the same gear gets off Y number of spells where Y=X-25 due to empty globals from RNG then I do more damage.
    Well, you are right math wise. But your failing to take into account the balance blizzard work towards. If you do stuff 50% of globals hitting for 100.000 every move, or 100% of globals hitting for 50.000 per move (on average) your DPS is the same and you havent "lost DPS" balance wise. Strictly speaking your losing DPS by making a move 50% of the time, but your still hitting the DPS goal blizzard has in mind.

    However, I feel its bad design that you dont have stuff to do all the time.
    Cerunnir - Frost/Blood Death Knight

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Is it still weapon dependent? Like if you have very good 1h weapons (ilvl 483+). Since 1h conquest weapons are cheaper and Elegon might drop one as well, if not the 2h drops from him. I know that in this first weeks you mostly spec depending on what gear you get or can get via crafting/BMAH/AH. That's why I am asking. Right now im deep into haste 2H like 5300+ haste but on some fight (the AoE friendly oens) I pull good but not top damage.

    ps: Taking a look at T14 pieces (got the pants already) they are about +300 more into mastery then haste, so maybe DW will be most viable down the road also.
    The sims are usually done in BiS gear for their spec, and in pure singletarget 2H frost is somewhat better. The weapons available to you will obviously have a huge impact, but thats just how RNG treats you. 2H frost is just pretty bad at aoe, its usually better to just singletarget nuke with diseases on all targets and D&D up.

  15. #35
    I just simmed it, 2H frost should switch to AE on three or more targets. That seems about right; the devs usually tune AE to be worthwhile at either 3 or 4 targets, and 2H frost AE is only barely worth using on 3.

    2H Frost T14N 1 target, single-target priority: 97457 DPS
    2H Frost T14N 2 targets, single-target priority: 97470 DPS
    2H Frost T14N 3 targets, single-target priority: 103634 DPS
    2H Frost T14N 4 targets, single-target priority: 106727 DPS
    2H Frost T14N 5 targets, single-target priority: 109755 DPS

    2H Frost T14N 2 targets, AE priority: 83428 DPS (-14.4%)
    2H Frost T14N 3 targets, AE priority: 106097 DPS (+2.4%)
    2H Frost T14N 4 targets, AE priority: 117389 DPS (+9.9%)
    2H Frost T14N 5 targets, AE priority: 128793 DPS (+17.3%)

    Of course this assumes you're reforged/gemmed for haste. If you're stacking mastery because you're primarily AEing dungeon trash and don't have 463 1H weapons yet (for some reason 2H weapons are several orders of magnitude easier to get in MoP), the numbers change considerably.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-10-11 at 04:12 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinu View Post
    i assure you the difference between 2H and DW is alot higher stop blindly trusting simcraft for current available content and gear levels 2H > DW
    your right 2h with current content and gear is > than dw. i think it will remain that way for sometime. i do know that my soul reaper when it crits is hitting for 135k+ i wonder if that will ramp up as gear does .

  17. #37
    The big delayed soul reaper hit has nothing to do with weapon damage.

    Of course it'll scale with gear, just not weapon damage.

  18. #38
    High Overlord
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    Standing still? 2h

    Movement and any sort of aoe? Technically 2h, realistically DW

    Since most fights are not Ultraxion style and there is movement or multiple things to hit, DW is just as viable as 2h.

    The difference between DW and 2h with mostly equal gear and optimal reforging is very, very small.

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  19. #39
    The single-target patchwerk difference is very small, yes. DW blows 2H out of the water with movement and AE.

    The only problem is finding 1H weapons; it's tremendously easier to get 2H weapons for some reason.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    The single-target patchwerk difference is very small, yes. DW blows 2H out of the water with movement and AE.

    The only problem is finding 1H weapons; it's tremendously easier to get 2H weapons for some reason.
    Because you don't have to get two?

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