Thread: 2H vs DW frost

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  1. #61
    Switching up play styles is a bit weird but only takes a few hours to get sue to it and build up muscle memory and proc watching and what not.

    DW is better for most of the cleave fights and add AoE bits.

    It all depends on what weapons you can get your hands on and whether you have the tier bonuses yet. I've got 489 2H or 476 1H so 2H wins out for me atm.

    I'm playing Frost 2H (474 ilvl) and have got top 50 rankings on pretty much every parse - cwatididthar? Parses don't necessarily mean it's better as good RNG will probably have more impact on your dps than weapon choice.

    In terms of sub 35% phases the DW rotation is definitely a lot easier to manage than 2H.

    I'm very glad that both specs are very close so it gives people some flexibility.

  2. #62
    Manging KM procs while trying to raid lead and watch everyone else is a bit rough, which makes me prefer the DW style as you can button smash with a lot more leniency..

    However, pretty sure i'm sticking with 2h unless the damage difference comes out way way way ahead.

  3. #63
    You don't need to manage KM procs. It's a negligible DPS increase, and the only way to manage it effectively (with a swing timer) is too much effort for the benefit, detracts from play more than it gains.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Wih View Post
    You don't need to manage KM procs. It's a negligible DPS increase, and the only way to manage it effectively (with a swing timer) is too much effort for the benefit, detracts from play more than it gains.
    You do need to manage KM procs. Any player who wants to pull top 20 WoL rankings and likes maximising his class to the utmost will be watching their swing timer. I'd agree with you that watching a swing timer is neglidible if we are GCD capped but we sadly aren't so watching your swing timer and delaying an Obliterate by 1-3 seconds when not rune capped (i.e. you still have all 3 sets of runes recharging) is a DPS increase and an extremely good way to minimise getting rune/runic power starved.

  5. #65
    Sims disagree with you, as do the majority of the players I've seen posting here. Delaying for KM procs delays resource generation cycle and so loses DPS. You need to compare the DPS loss of holding your KM proc or waiting for a KM proc against the DPS gain of using a KM proc on the "right" attack, and you'll find it's not the DPS boost you think it is. IIRC it's been simmed at 0.3%.

  6. #66
    The Patient Ganaza's Avatar
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    Ranking is 90% fight mechanics and 10% min/maxing your playstyle (assuming you already play at a good level)

    DW synchronizes with fight mechanics better in just about every situation.

    Think about it x
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  7. #67
    It should be pointed out that the DPS gain, if any, assumes absolutely perfect play.

    Last I checked, humans aren't perfect, have to deal with latency, and also have to deal with external environmental factors (e.g., movement, watching timers, etc.). So, basically, with your swing mod, you're probably performing worse than you would be if you simply ignored KM. Of course, there's an easy way to find out, which would be to perform a legitimate test yourself, but I can assure you that stalling anything over a half of a second results in a DPS loss from optimal. Perhaps not noticeable in short-sample tests, but two different sims confirm that it is indeed a DPS loss to do so.

    The ratio of KM-FS / KM-OB is largely dictated by your priority. What you manually try and force barely shifts that ratio, unless you're taking drastic measures (>2s stalling).

    WoL rankings just turn Recount into a game. They don't necessarily show how flawlessly you perform your rotation. They can be an indicator, but they are not the absolute measure. What WoL rankings primarily show is how well you can mold the mechanics of the fight (e.g., higher DPS uptime by clever positioning on a movement-heavy fight) into a measurable output (e.g., Recount): a game within the game. There's a reason why the phrase "padding the meters" exists, whether it is meant negatively or not.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    WoL rankings just turn Recount into a game. They don't necessarily show how flawlessly you perform your rotation. They can be an indicator, but they are not the absolute measure. What WoL rankings primarily show is how well you can mold the mechanics of the fight (e.g., higher DPS uptime by clever positioning on a movement-heavy fight) into a measurable output (e.g., Recount): a game within the game. There's a reason why the phrase "padding the meters" exists, whether it is meant negatively or not.
    Building on this, doing more Recount DPS/Damage done does not assure you're still playing to your absolute best, I can cite two logging entries where ranking top actually meant you were playing worse.

    One, was back in firelands, the Frost DK Rankings on Alysrazor. They were made by Frost DKs tanking hatchlings as frost with an additional dedicated pair of healers to keep them alive, while multi-dotting the second hatchling as well. It was insane DPS, to be sure... but it wasn't by any means the optimial way to do the encounter, and much can be said of the healers deserving the praise more then anyone.

    Secondly... pretty much any Spine of Deathwing parse. If you can sort out who's multi-dotting bloods and who's doing practical DPS that moves the encounter along, you rapidly discover the people 'topping the meters' are basically dead weight for most of their log.

    That's the problem with WOL rankings as a measure of effectiveness. Sure, the Frost DK spamming Howling Blast on four targets while being fed Tricks by two rogues is going to do a ton of Recount DPS, but the Frost DK that focuses fire, and globals one target and gets back on the boss is actually moving the encounter along faster, and plainly playing more effectively.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    blah
    blah
    blah

    That's the problem with WOL rankings as a measure of effectiveness. Sure, the Frost DK spamming Howling Blast on four targets while being fed Tricks by two rogues is going to do a ton of Recount DPS, but the Frost DK that focuses fire, and globals one target and gets back on the boss is actually moving the encounter along faster, and plainly playing more effectively.
    I've got an important evidence for you! Seriously.
    For the people who are really confident about the Raid, the Scada was created. And, yes, you CAN actually see WHO was doing the damage on the boss. And you can see it on WOL. It is not WOL problem, it is your problem that you're stupid enough to be unable to just click some options in DamageDone filters to be able to see who was the best on
    >leeching the boss to get Recount DPS on ZonOzz, and who was hitting orbs and tentackles.
    e t c
    And you know, serious raiders are able to obtain that data.
    Your arguments are all blah. All your base are belong to us. Read the WoL guide, install Scada and try to obtain data that really matters.
    Otherwise play your Recount WoW. Cheers.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Minoan View Post
    I've got an important evidence for you! Seriously.
    For the people who are really confident about the Raid, the Scada was created. And, yes, you CAN actually see WHO was doing the damage on the boss. And you can see it on WOL. It is not WOL problem, it is your problem that you're stupid enough to be unable to just click some options in DamageDone filters to be able to see who was the best on
    >leeching the boss to get Recount DPS on ZonOzz, and who was hitting orbs and tentackles.
    e t c
    And you know, serious raiders are able to obtain that data.
    Your arguments are all blah. All your base are belong to us. Read the WoL guide, install Scada and try to obtain data that really matters.
    Otherwise play your Recount WoW. Cheers.
    Except that ranks dont take that into account. And he's talking about rankings. How about you read his post instead of calling it all blah?

  11. #71
    Because apparently reading someone's argument on the internet is too hard for most people, if it's put together with language and conviction rather them memes and insults.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  12. #72
    Immortal Destil's Avatar
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    2H Frost is simming, although I don't believe the sims, higher than DW.

    They're both very close to one another in DPS so play what you'd like.

    I love 2h Frost so, that's what I personally play in PVP AND PVE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
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  13. #73
    They sim very close on single targets. Go with your weapon quality for single targets.

    On AE/cleave/movement obviously DW wins.

  14. #74
    So I switched to DW last night, tried to get some practice on the raid dummy. I was doing maybe 1k less than my 2H tests, but that can be chalked up to being new at it. Just asking if this sounds right for how DW is supposed to be played:

    Ignoring diseases, Plague Leech and Soul Reaper which we all know about: You mostly spam Howling Blast to get runic power up, but Frost Striking takes priority when either you have a Killing Machine proc, or are about to be RP capped. If you have both unholy runes available, you use DnD or Obliterate to make only one Unholy rune depleted, so that your Runic Empowerment will refund frost or death runes. That's what people mean when they say "gaming" runes, right? If Obliterate's the only ability I can use and I don't have enough RP for a Frost Strike, then just Obliterate, even if I've got a KM proc up.

    If all runes are recharging, Frost Strike. If all are recharging and I don't have enough RP, Horn of Winter. Oh, and several places say Rime procs should always be attended to right away. Does all of that sound right? My head hurts.

    I feel like the biggest noob for posting this, but in my defense, ElitistJerks is not updated as often as it used to be. And while I check noxxic and icy-veins, all three sites have slightly different priority rotations listed so I don't have 100% faith in any particular one.

  15. #75
    DW is superior mostly to 2h in pvp right now. I want to play 2h so much with the FS damage buff from DW.

    2H is a little weak on heavy armor, DW is not. The amount of damage output agaist heavy armor is superior as DW compared to 2h. I really dislike MOP 2h frost if you havn't noticed yet and i have to play DW to have the playstyle i want, even tho i want to use 2h. Cata 2h frost was nearly perfect, only Obliterate could have been a litle better in cata, but else then that, it was perfect. DW is the closest i can get to cata 2h frost atm.

    As 2h i have huge problems against heavy armor but i'm strong against low-armored classes.
    As DW i'm strong against any class.

    That's the main difference.

    I don't see why everyone loves the new 2h frost. Yes, you can crit 100k on cloth targets, but you can't get close to half of that on heavy armor-classes like holy paladins. I can kill holy paladins with DW, but not with 2h. The new "Threat of Thassarian" and "Might of the Frozen Wastes" are just stupid (imo)

    my greatest wish for 5.2 (quote):
    Removal of FS and Obliterate damage bonuses from ToT and MotFW. Increase FS-damage by 40% and Obliterate by 10% passively for both DW and 2H. Make Obliterate ignore 15% armor per diseases on the target
    Last edited by Wrien; 2012-10-15 at 11:51 PM.

  16. #76
    That's pretty much it, except just like 2H frost you should completely ignore Killing Machine and Rime is not a priority, you just don't want to Obliterate with Rime already active because that's likely to waste it. But you only Obliterate every 15-16s or so, so that situation doesn't really come up.

    Obliterate is never the only ability you can use. Any time you can Obliterate, you can Howling Blast. You only Obliterate when you have two active Unholy runes.

    To AE, use DnD to consume your second unholy rune on cooldown and skip Obliterate entirely. If your AE lasts long enough and you have free GCDs, plague strike on a second Unholy rune for the extra RP.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-10-16 at 12:51 AM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post

    To AE, use DnD to consume your second unholy rune on cooldown and skip Obliterate entirely. If your AE lasts long enough and you have free GCDs, plague strike on a second Unholy rune for the extra RP.
    You can use a similar method to AE effectively as 2H frost as well, provided you're beyond the 4ish target threshold.

    DND> HB > HB > HB > Oblit.

    You burn your first Unholy on the DND like the Masterfrost rotation, then clear all of your frost/death runes except one with HB, then drop a obliterate on your primary target, ideally this procs Rime and gets you another HB, but if it doesn't it still nets you more total RP and a hefty wallop since it's very likely KM is procced at this point.

    Then you just dump with FS and resume the cycle, spending orphaned runes on DND or obliterate. Ideally this is being done with Unholy Blight so you can keep both diseases active fairly effectively; and at the end of cycles can PS+Pest for a re-spread of Blood Plague, but that's a bit more advanced, and likely won't be an issue.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  18. #78
    Sure, that's how hastefrost has always AE'd. It just does substantially less damage than DW, because you aren't reforged to mastery and your frost strikes hit for much less.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Sure, that's how hastefrost has always AE'd. It just does substantially less damage than DW, because you aren't reforged to mastery and your frost strikes hit for much less.
    Yes, but that's why you burn your Unholy Runes with Obliterate more then DND/PS, Obliterate makes up the lost FS damage and provides additional HBs via Rime Procs.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  20. #80
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    DW is much more forgiving because with 2H it is almost a waste to use KM procs on FS anymore. It was always important to go for OBs, but now the difference is just massive. You can still faceroll as DW.

    I will likely try to keep both in my bags, but go for 2H as priority. Seems like weapon swapping may be the way to go if you want to maximize frost. Lots of folks had the 2 specs already. I know that I used an aoe and single target build in cata.

    If I was just raiding I would love the new setup, but I do not raid at all, so I find the distinguishing features rather annoying. Glad to see them try to make the two unique, just think it is a bit forced.

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