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  1. #1

    Hit/Exp Capped in Raids-As Prot

    As we all know there isn't a whole lot of agreeing on whether to go hit/exp as prot. What I'd like to do with this thread is get Prot Warriors experience with being/not being capped while in a raid setting to try and hammer out a preferable reforging choice.

    My personal experience so far has been with the caps, having tanked Stone gaurds(being on the 2 energizing) and tanking Feng, and found the damage to be quite managable with consistant useage of SB and Sbar when needed.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerkuh View Post
    As we all know there isn't a whole lot of agreeing on whether to go hit/exp as prot. What I'd like to do with this thread is get Prot Warriors experience with being/not being capped while in a raid setting to try and hammer out a preferable reforging choice.

    My personal experience so far has been with the caps, having tanked Stone gaurds(being on the 2 energizing) and tanking Feng, and found the damage to be quite managable with consistant useage of SB and Sbar when needed.
    If it doesnt have mastery on it reforge to that 1st. You do NOT need to go out of your way to gem/reforge hit or expertise. Tanked all bosses with about 2% hit and maybe 3% expertise and rage management was perfectly fine. Did not find myself rage starved or hoping I had 60 rage for a CD. Will more then likely drop more as gear scales up.

    Avoidance is still the way to go
    Mastery>Parry>Dodge> Hit=Expertise

    Tankspot has some good info if you need further anaylsis on what "rotation" nets more rage and the math behind it by foregoing threat stats.
    Last edited by ruwon; 2012-10-04 at 10:46 PM.

  3. #3
    Im well versed with my rotation and reforging, what I am trying to accomplish is compare going for the Hit/Exp vs straight Avoidance, not learn my class

  4. #4
    I was not trying to offend just give you other evidence that you do not need to be hit/expertise capped. Was giving you another source incase you didnt believe me

    If you would like a direct answer: Avoidance>Threat Stats. You gain plenty enough rage without needing to be remotely close to caps

  5. #5
    Theck at sacredduty did more sims last week. Gearing for avoidance and total damage reduction will work in most situations, but as always with avoidance stacking and missing your attacks that damage is spiky (as avoidance gearing always has been outside CTC cap). You take about 10% more damage overall gearing for offensive stats and mastery only, but the damage is more predictable. Both ways are fine. I prefer predictable.
    Last edited by idefiler6; 2012-10-05 at 12:44 AM. Reason: smartphone typos

  6. #6
    Meh, i ran the first six bosses with hit and expertise caps (a few hit+mastery gems) and mastery serpent eyes until Elegon where i used dual stam trinkets and stam serpent eye's while still hit and expertise capped. In any case i prefer capping offensive stats since it's undeniably more rage and i like that. I will probably use it for heroic progression as well because missing a shield slam or have it dodged when bosses starts hitting really hard just feels like an unnecessary risk.

  7. #7
    I ran with about 6% on each (max mastery, then hit/exp) and went up to about 7.5% on each for Elegon (sacrificing some mastery) because our dps was a bit lacking.

    Though on a fight like Elegon I find myself using Shield Barier quite a lot due to breaths and add aoe being the highest spikes and being magic damadge. Would it parhaps be better to forsake mastery and go for parry/dodge if I'm not using shield block a lot? Afterall a big part of mastery is crit block, the actual block % it gives is quite small.

  8. #8
    Brewmaster ridish's Avatar
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    Last time i played prot warrior you could pretty much keep threat by using thunderclap at the start of the fight and then go afk...
    My point is that you don't need hit or exp, it's almost a useless stat for you since your role is not to do good dps. Focus on your avoidance. If you get to rage starved to keep aggro your not doing it right :S

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ridish View Post
    Last time i played prot warrior you could pretty much keep threat by using thunderclap at the start of the fight and then go afk...
    My point is that you don't need hit or exp, it's almost a useless stat for you since your role is not to do good dps. Focus on your avoidance. If you get to rage starved to keep aggro your not doing it right :S
    Prot now gains rage from shield slam/revenge instead of auto attacks/damage taken, meaning that you need to land those abilities to fuel your defensive skills.

  10. #10
    I've been running with a Hit/Exp build now, coupled with Mastery and I have to say that my healers seem to appreciate the lack of any huge spikey damage. I can maintain an almost 100% Shield Block uptime, which then allows Mastery to shine and me to get a whole host of Critical Blocks.

    While the overall damage I'm taking does seem to be slightly higher than when I was running an avoidance build, the lack of spikes seems to reduce the pressure on the healers and lead to fewer moments where they've panic healed and risked their mana pools.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruwon View Post
    If you would like a direct answer: Avoidance>Threat Stats.
    just want to open your mind with saying, that hit/expertise in fact are now defensive stats also - to some extend at least.
    more of those > more rage > higher shield block uptime > more critical blocks > more rage (CBs enrage you, which is giving 10 rage) > more shield block uptime > ...
    or
    more of those > more rage > more/higher Shield barriers
    (depending on which ability you use in a given situation)

    it may work for you / your raid to basically ignore them and go full avoidance after mastery, but hit and expertise aren't exclusively offensive/threat stats anymore, and thus, shouldn't be labeled as such.

    afterall, going for mastery > hit/exp > dodge/parry nets in a higher total damage taken (over the course of a fight), but a more smooth, consistent way.
    going for mastery > dodge/parry > hit exp nets in a lower total damage taken, but makes you more vulnerable to be a victim of RNG, and the damage you take is more spiky.

    every tank has to adjust his/her way of gearing as a prot warrior to their raid and their healers. there basically is no bread and butter way to do it.
    Last edited by xebtria; 2012-10-05 at 10:59 AM.

  12. #12
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I actually find that Hit/Exp capping will make your damage smoother and more predictable. As I recall Theck's sims say you'll take ~10% more damage overall during the fight, but the actual damage will be lower and you won't have spikes. So far I'm at like 6% Hit and 7.35% Exp, and I'm swimming in Rage. I can pretty much keep Shield Block up on cooldown with very little issues, and outside of the occasional trouble packs (looking at you, groups before Taran Zhu and Scarlet Halls Guardians) pretty much no problem at all with damage.

    I really like the fact there is no real "one true way" of doing it.
    NOBLESHIELD
    <Meliora> of Turalyon-US
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator


  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ridish View Post
    Last time i played prot warrior you could pretty much keep threat by using thunderclap at the start of the fight and then go afk...
    My point is that you don't need hit or exp, it's almost a useless stat for you since your role is not to do good dps. Focus on your avoidance. If you get to rage starved to keep aggro your not doing it right :S
    It might be a good idea to at least somewhat know what you're talking about before giving advice.

  14. #14
    I noticed it last night on Feng. A S&B proc shield slam got parried as I watched my health plummet to 10%. I wish I raided in my brown pants.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome chaddd's Avatar
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    I tried our 1st round on Quilen with Parry>Dodge>mastery>hit=exp. I think with this current gear (ilvl 466) I prefer the hit/exp caps. If you go the avoidance heavy build you are probably going to be using barrier more. With the hit=exp>Mastery>parry>dodge build you will get to shield block more. When trying the boss w/o the hit/exp caps there was also one other component I didn't like...threat. With the threat changes, constant swapping of the Quilen, and low hit, it became hard to control them sometimes.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 10:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ridish View Post
    Last time i played prot warrior you could pretty much keep threat by using thunderclap at the start of the fight and then go afk...
    My point is that you don't need hit or exp, it's almost a useless stat for you since your role is not to do good dps. Focus on your avoidance. If you get to rage starved to keep aggro your not doing it right :S

    /vote down ability wanted.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 10:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    I really like the fact there is no real "one true way" of doing it.
    It's basically how do you want to play. Here are the 3 models and stat priority to achieve them. Much like the talents, for the most part, pick what works best for your for that situation. I was going to go with the Avoidance build but I think at this point in the game the Control or Mitigation builds will work a bit better for me.

    STAT PRIORITY:
    Avoidance:
    Stamina > Parry >= Dodge > Mastery > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (7.5%)
    Mitigation:
    Stamina > Mastery > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (7.5%) > Parry >= Dodge
    Control:
    Stamina > Melee Hit (7.5%) >= Expertise (15%) > Mastery > Parry >= Dodge

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 10:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Viperslayer View Post
    I've been running with a Hit/Exp build now, coupled with Mastery and I have to say that my healers seem to appreciate the lack of any huge spikey damage. I can maintain an almost 100% Shield Block uptime, which then allows Mastery to shine and me to get a whole host of Critical Blocks.

    While the overall damage I'm taking does seem to be slightly higher than when I was running an avoidance build, the lack of spikes seems to reduce the pressure on the healers and lead to fewer moments where they've panic healed and risked their mana pools.
    In addition to the better mob control I agree with you on this, and so do my healers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 10:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerkuh View Post
    Im well versed with my rotation and reforging, what I am trying to accomplish is compare going for the Hit/Exp vs straight Avoidance, not learn my class
    Look at my stat priority above. Hit/Exp will be SB more, more predictable damage, better mob control with better snap threat. Avoidance will be possibly more spiky damage, you will have more SS/Rev misses, lower rage incoming for the most part, not pressing SB as often, and relying on barrier more often. That is how I have seen it from the different stat priorities I have been trying out. I like the hit/exp caps builds, control or mitigation.
    Last edited by chaddd; 2012-10-05 at 02:45 PM.

  16. #16
    You can look at all the sims you want and compare the math and overanalyze the figures, but for me it boils down to one major thing...since my interrupts can now miss is it worth not being hitcapped and causing a wipe? To me the answer is clearly no. Go with your hitcap!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by roflmfao View Post
    You can look at all the sims you want and compare the math and overanalyze the figures, but for me it boils down to one major thing...since my interrupts can now miss is it worth not being hitcapped and causing a wipe? To me the answer is clearly no. Go with your hitcap!
    Sincerely F the interrupts, you need it for rage and damage mitigation first and foremost. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they kill the hit requirement for interrupts last expansion?

    EDIT: They had to remove it. I never missed one in all of cata and I had close to zero offensive stats.

  18. #18
    True, however I am not sure if that still applies since we are using Pummel to interrupt instead of slam.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by roflmfao View Post
    True, however I am not sure if that still applies since we are using Pummel to interrupt instead of slam.
    No. Slam is a melee attack. If you're referring to the old ability of Shield Bash (protection interrupt), that was removed in cata. Shield slam never interrupted but used to dispel buffs (now you have to glyph that if wanted). What exactly are you getting at here?

  20. #20
    ok, bash, not slam. My point is no matter how you look at it you need to focus on hit cap for interrupts as well which gives hit capping a huge priority.

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