Staff vs. MH/OH and Mistweaver Emminence

[Siddown]

Are you a sock-puppet of the other guy who keeps mindlessly repeating that nonsense? Just curious.

Not at all. I was the one who posted in the other thread about a week ago where you kept insisting the same thing. See, this is what you don't get: I am not saying you are wrong, I am asking you to prove it. You speak about this issue in many threads and every time you declare that DW >>> 2H as it is fact. I posted a video where someone found it wasn't the case, and you said it was "beyond useless" claiming sample size.

I build software for a living, and as part of it I have build many simulators (including for heavy regulated industries such as gaming and banking), so I know a bit what I'm talking about. If someone tells me that they are finding real world values don't match the simulator, my first reaction isn't to call the people stupid or make excuses for how they are doing it wrong. My first reaction would be to determine where the simulation was incorrect and try to fix it. The most common issue is there are variables present I didn't consider.

There is so much more to WoW DPS than just rotation, which is what I'm guessing the sim is using. Latency is a huge issue, especially when it varies from second to second, these are things a sim cannot capture accurately.

Raid parsing won't help because they are different people with different gear with different raid makeups. The video I showed, despite a small sample size, was the same person, with identical buffs, with identical gear except weapons so it was much better than anything you have shown to defend your position.

As Arthur Conan Doyle once wrote: "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." This is what you are doing. You were given some numbers and you instantly dismissed them because they didn't fit what you have already made up is the truth in your head.

tl;dr, I'm not saying you are wrong, but your insistance that you are right and the way you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you despite having zero proof is laughable.

[Schizoide]

Simcraft models latency and reaction time. It models a patchwerk-type fight by default, because that's a convenient comparison, but you can change your uptime around to model movement also.

The simcraft WW monk model is very mature and comes extremely close to in-game performance. If you find any spots where it diverges open a ticket and the devs will fix it. I've done that myself on over a dozen occasions.

The value in simulation is that you can run enough iterations to eliminate random variance. You can't get that with a small sample size, such as with your video. The downside is that if the sim models the game incorrectly, it can lead you down the wrong path. Luckily, simcraft is extremely good for WW monks. If anything looks off to you, open a ticket and make it better!

Again, once raidbots is up and running it will give some info, but I doubt it'll differentiate between 2H and DW windwalkers, because there's no real way to do so beyond looking at how hard autoattacks hit or how many autoattacks you get over a time period, and even that can be difficult due to way of the monk.

[Siddown]

Simcraft models latency and reaction time. It models a patchwerk-type fight by default, because that's a convenient comparison, but you can change your uptime around to model movement also.

The simcraft WW monk model is very mature and comes extremely close to in-game performance. If you find any spots where it diverges open a ticket and the devs will fix it. I've done that myself on over a dozen occasions.

The value in simulation is that you can run enough iterations to eliminate random variance. You can't get that with a small sample size, such as with your video. The downside is that if the sim models the game incorrectly, it can lead you down the wrong path. Luckily, simcraft is extremely good for WW monks. If anything looks off to you, open a ticket and make it better!

Again, once raidbots is up and running it will give some info, but I doubt it'll differentiate between 2H and DW windwalkers, because there's no real way to do so beyond looking at how hard autoattacks hit or how many autoattacks you get over a time period, and even that can be difficult due to way of the monk.

Answer this, how come on all the different WoW forums not one person posted a parse that backs up the sim?

I think we all know that people are out there testing the crap out of this. There is a small, but very eager, percentage of the people who play this game who live for this kind of stuff. People who live to eek that extra 1% of DPS out of their toon, hell that why they put attack dummies in the game in the first place, and yet there is not one post where people show in game that DW > 2H. Not one.

Like I've said multiple times, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'd sure like to see something in game to at least back it up.

[Grubjuice]

why are you talking about the same topic on two different threads? this is supposed to be a Mistweaver thread.

[Schizoide]

The difference is 4.8% in T14H gear. But remember, this is a scaling problem and nobody has T14H gear. Most people aren't even raiding in 463 gear yet. Simcraft doesn't even have profiles for monks in 463 gear, because nobody bothered to build them. They'll be obsolete very quickly, so why put in the effort?

Anyway, it does have T14N profiles; in T14N gear the difference is only 3.2%. As your gear worsens, the difference narrows. I would expect them to be even closer in 463 and lower gear.

Edit: You're right, lets continue this in the WW thread please.

[Siddown]

why are you talking about the same topic on two different threads? this is supposed to be a Mistweaver thread.

I realized afterward that there is another thread, but isn't 2H v. 1H + OH for damage the purpose of this thread?

[Schizoide]

For mistwalkers, yes. They can't dualwield.

[Grubjuice]

I realized afterward that there is another thread, but isn't 2H v. 1H + OH for damage the purpose of this thread?

yes indeed.

Of course, Mistweavers have a particular problem in that the tooltip in game for "Way of the Monk" does not match what actually happens in the game. "Way of the monk" explains what happens when a monk is dual wielding or 2H wielding, but does not explain what happens to a MW that wields 1H+OH, so a lot of players are confused.

In fact when wielding 1H+OH you get a 70% bonus to auto attack damage from the 1H weapon, but you wouldn't know that from the tooltip.

Also the real damage difference between 2H and 1H+OH is probably a smaller issue for MW's than the difference between 2H and DW for WWs because that difference only effects the strength of one spell (emminence via Serpent's Zeal, probably amounting to a fraction of a percent difference in HPS) and therefore other factors like stat balance and secondary stat allocation as they relate to mana regeneration trump the issue (at this early tier MW's will probably just take whatever has the most spirit and intellect). Whereas for WW's, DPS is their raison d'etre, so it's srs bzns.

[hellomynameis]

1) Haste doesn't work that way. A 3.3s weapon with 40% haste will attack at 2.36s, not 1.98s.

The 2H still wins on autoattacks, but not by a lot, and the extra stats on the offhand should make up for it (remember 1 spellpower converts to 2 attackpower). The correct numbers are 2035dps versus 1834dps.

You are correct, my bad. However, the difference at ilvl450 between 2h and 1h+oh would be 153 intellect, including the oh enchant. Which is 306 atp. I won't go into the math, but if you do the calculations and the result says 153 int/sp and 306 atp is better than 201 wdps (keep in mind, at this point we have 15k spellpower and 30k atp, so 150/300 sp/atp is like a drop in the ocean) then I won't try to disprove you. i just want to have all the facts on the table.

2) Monk special attacks don't work that way. Read this link for more info.

http://www.disargeria.net/2012/08/14...es-weapon-dps/

I don't really know if you answered me or not. And if this was directed at me, I don't think you understood what I meant. Are you saying Spinning Crane Kick is not a special attack? ..cause I see a lot of yellow special attack numbers on my screen when I use it. If you are referring to Serpent's Zeal (2 stacks) that give 50% auto attack damage as heal, then I can inform you I was referring to "Eminence: When the Monk deals non-autoattack damage, the summoned Jade Serpent Statue will heal the lowest health nearby target within 20 yards equal to 50% of the damage done", which excludes auto attacks.

My point being, a mistweaver monk won't stand around auto attacking very much unless those auto attacks can actually heal the tank+party/raid. It works at low levels, but not at lvl90. It is situational ok to stand around auto attacking, but most of the time, atleast how I heal with my lvl90 monk, I can't stand around auto attacking. It is mostly special attacks to get Serpent's Zeal and Tiger Power buffs up, and to keep them up, and depending on the situation, Spinning Crane kick or some non-melee spells. Don't get me wrong, I do put up Serpent's Zeal buff, so I do think it has merrit, but while putting that buff up, I also give heals with that damage since I have the statue up so its worth it. Jab + Tiger Palm is part of "get chi, spend chi, drink tea" to conserve mana and still give out some heals, auto attacks are just a small bonus.
TL;DR
Monk special attacks do work that way. They do heal 50% of the damage you do. 3x Tiger Power(30% ignored armor) + Spinning Crane Kick on lots of mobs are sufficient healing, and there are no auto attacks involved except those few getting in between the Tiger Palms.

All this being said, I am not an expert on monks, they havn't been out long enough. But I do feel I have a good handle on things when I try it out in PvP to learn all the abilities in the heat of the battle. Having earned 16k honor already after 11 days into the expansion, I do have some experience, if not the math skills..

[Dreyo]

In case anyone's still confused, Way of the Monk, while in Mistweaver spec, says that you get a +40% bonus to autoattack damage with a 2h weapon, and +70% to autoattack damage with a 1h weapon. It says nothing about DW, because Mistweavers can't DW.

[Schizoide]

@hello: You said something about special attacks working with weapon damage, and monk abilities don't work that way. That's what I was referring to.

@Dreyo: Yes, that has come up 5-6 times already in this thread.

[hellomynameis]

@hello: You said something about special attacks working with weapon damage, and monk abilities don't work that way. That's what I was referring to.

No, I didn't.

[Schizoide]

Well, someone did!

[DirewolfX]

2) Monk special attacks don't work that way. Read this link for more info.

http://www.disargeria.net/2012/08/14...es-weapon-dps/

This link basically says it DOES scale with weapon damage. It either scales by a factor k of 2H weapon DPS or a factor k' of MH + OH weapon DPS (1Her weapons have a lower DPS than 2Hers!). If it doesn't scale differently for MWers, then it will be reduced damage for MWers.

[Schizoide]

It doesn't scale with weapon damage like sinister strike, it scales with weapon DPS. Speed doesn't matter at all. Right, if those formulas don't change for MW, 1H+offhand will not be competitive for fistweaving.

I suspect that they do change for MW, but I haven't tested it-- and also GC posted that the devs "don't mind" if 2H is better than 1h+OH for MW, because for most other specs it's the opposite. So it's up in the air.

[KyleEverett]

Weapon dps matter's a huge amount. Its the main reason I've been unable to upgrade from my Cranedancer's Staff for Mistweaver. It has nearly double the weapon dps it should and it gives the same sp as any other caster weapon.

I've also compared proper weapons and our special attacks do less damage with a one hander, but autoattacks come out very close.

[Schizoide]

Yeah, the cranedancer's staff is bugged; it didn't sacrifice weapon DPS for spellpower. It has higher DPS than the heroic raid caster staff. I would have picked it too if I realized it was so awesome when my monk hit 90.

[DirewolfX]

You can buy all of the Monk level up quest rewards from vendors in Peak of Serenity, including the 3 staves from level 90.

[Schizoide]

Awesome! I did not realize they sold the 450 staves also.

[DirewolfX]

Yup, barring any secret hotfixes, I saw them all for ~200g each last week.