1. #1

    Re-teach me how to prot paladin

    Hey guys, I just came back to tanking on prot since 4.2ish, and from what I'm reading I'm quite confused.

    1. Stat priority - have seen sacredduty.net's (theck's) write ups - Hit>exp hardcap > haste > mastery?

    In the past, we’ve suggested hit to cap, expertise to soft-cap, and then mastery and haste. But I think that you could make a strong argument that our first two priorities should be to hard-cap both hit and expertise. After that, any combination of mastery and haste is good – each have their pros and cons, and it’s really hard to definitively say that one is better than the other.
    -http://sacredduty.net/2012/10/02/damage-smoothing-expertise-mastery-and-haste/

    So (correct me if wrong please) we cap hit (7.5%), hardcap expertise (15%), then go for haste or mastery. Avoidance stats (parry/dodge) are no longer that valuable - ergo, this sounds like I aim for almost Ret-like gearing? (Exception of not gemming for Strength, of course).

    2. Seals - I missed the memo where SOI is now our tanking seal. From what I've read, we use SOI now? And we pair that with Battle Healer for OP group heals? Is it true that HOTR will proc the melee heal from SOI on every mob it hits?

    3. What are the glyphs you guys use? I'm thinking Alabaster Shield + Battle Healer + Final Wrath. Might consider Divine Protection glyph and Consecration if neccessary.

  2. #2
    3. I use Alabaster Shield, Divine Protection, and Battle Healer now. Divine Protection (glyphed) is especially valuable for those first few seconds on a boss or any hard-hitter when you're prone to eating a big spike of damage and still have to build HoPo for SotR. After that, if you're specced into Unbreakable Spirit, you'll be able to have 20% reduced physical damage for about 10 out of every 52 seconds.

    I played with the Glyph of Consecration before the rude awakening that Seal of Insight was intended to be our go-to tanking seal; giving that one up was a sad, sad moment. Fast forward a day and a half and I'm too busy enjoying competing on the healing meters to miss it.

  3. #3
    First off, let me apologize in advance for being unable to accurately answer your concerns... Just wanted to thank you for sharing that article, those results are interesting to say the least. Hit and Expertise becoming extremely important doesn't come as much of a surprise (it's more or less the same as with DKs when they had to land Death Strikes), but having Haste on par with Mastery is completely unexpected.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardi View Post
    First off, let me apologize in advance for being unable to accurately answer your concerns... Just wanted to thank you for sharing that article, those results are interesting to say the least. Hit and Expertise becoming extremely important doesn't come as much of a surprise (it's more or less the same as with DKs when they had to land Death Strikes), but having Haste on par with Mastery is completely unexpected.
    It came as a huge shock to me as well. It is a big status change from cata mindset of MASTERYYYYYY + Avoidance, then you go read a book till the DPS kill the boss. Again, I'm waiting for the more advanced Pally tanks to correct me if I'm wrong, but it's almost like we're "DPSing" the boss as hard as possible now in order to get our active mitigation to work. Haste being so important just feels... weird.

    Also, the use of Seal of Insight's self-heal makes haste again very important (more hits = more miniheals for yourself, and your party if glpyhed for Battle Healer). If anything SOI would then make Haste > Mastery.

    I'm also not sure how I feel about it yet, it feels like a roundabout Blood DK. Again, I'm hoping some senior pallies can weigh in on the changes.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 09:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    3. I use Alabaster Shield, Divine Protection, and Battle Healer now. Divine Protection (glyphed) is especially valuable for those first few seconds on a boss or any hard-hitter when you're prone to eating a big spike of damage and still have to build HoPo for SotR. After that, if you're specced into Unbreakable Spirit, you'll be able to have 20% reduced physical damage for about 10 out of every 52 seconds.

    I played with the Glyph of Consecration before the rude awakening that Seal of Insight was intended to be our go-to tanking seal; giving that one up was a sad, sad moment. Fast forward a day and a half and I'm too busy enjoying competing on the healing meters to miss it.
    Is the healing from SOI *that* extreme? I've seen posters show themselves outhealing blood DKs (I would LOVE for that! Though it was prolly raid heals from Battle Healer rather than on himself)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    Is the healing from SOI *that* extreme? I've seen posters show themselves outhealing blood DKs (I would LOVE for that! Though it was prolly raid heals from Battle Healer rather than on himself)
    On single target raid bossses I am sitting on 20-30k hps, about of which 50-70% is on myself, rest on the raid.


    Problem with avoidance and mastery now is that they changed the way CTC works. Basically they removed CTC. Avoidance and block no longer works together, but rather counter eachother. Which causes avoidance to lose most of its value.

  6. #6
    glyph of battle healer, albaster shield and DP are pretty beast.. i use DP constantly cuz of it only having like a 40 sec CD or less.

    always throw on sacred shield before going into a pull. its a 30 second buff which lasts roughly every 1-2 pulls.

    SoI has been buffed i think.. its pretty insane and yes it heals multiple times at once if u smack a mob with your hammer.

    ive tried using glyph of final wrath.. its alrite but its very situational. since our aoe dmg has been buffed by a ton.. it doesnt need a further buff for holy wrath.. plus most dps will kill your mob thats below 20% hp before u have a chance to cast holywrath.

    your main stats are active avoidance now.. hit/expertise/ and mastery/haste help tons.

    oh and dont be afraid to spam multiple Shield of righteous procs.. the buff stacks up.. ive had 7 in a row while tanking and my shield lasted like.. 11 seconds.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    Is the healing from SOI *that* extreme? I've seen posters show themselves outhealing blood DKs (I would LOVE for that! Though it was prolly raid heals from Battle Healer rather than on himself)
    It's more the combined effect of Seal of Insight, Glyph of Battle Healer, Sacred Shield (absorbs count as effective healing), and Holy Prism.

    All of the above scale with Vengeance. Yeah. (Refresh Sacred Shield early when you get a lot of Vengeance; I don't believe it updates dynamically with your stats.)

    I beat my healers a lot in 5-man heroics.

  8. #8
    Dreadlord OGXanos's Avatar
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    Yeah I'm not sure how this whole DPS stats thing works out. Can I get a breakdown of how/why it's better than the traditional tank avoidance stats. Graphs and numbers don't really 'click' for me as to why it's better just staring at them.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ximinez View Post
    Yeah I'm not sure how this whole DPS stats thing works out. Can I get a breakdown of how/why it's better than the traditional tank avoidance stats. Graphs and numbers don't really 'click' for me as to why it's better just staring at them.
    More haste -> more abilities -> more hp -> more SoTR -> Higher uptime the SoTR buff

    More haste -> more attacks -> more healing

    Also some other more minor stuff like SS scaling with haste.

    Hit and Expertise ones are rather obvious. Missing spells = no hpower, or even worse missing SoTR = no buff.

  10. #10
    Dreadlord OGXanos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    More haste -> more abilities -> more hp -> more SoTR -> Higher uptime the SoTR buff

    More haste -> more attacks -> more healing

    Also some other more minor stuff like SS scaling with haste.

    Hit and Expertise ones are rather obvious. Missing spells = no hpower, or even worse missing SoTR = no buff.
    right i get why this style works but what makes it better/more effective than our traditional parry/dodge ?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ximinez View Post
    right i get why this style works but what makes it better/more effective than our traditional parry/dodge ?
    Diminishig returns on "old" avoidance stats mean you can't have enough to reliably mitigate damage anymore. You can prolly reach about 30% mastery, 16% parry and 9% dodge with current hc dungeon gear.

    If you want to do more healsy type stuff too then throw in lights hammer as the level 90 talent. With vengeance you can easily get 16k ticks on EVERY raid member every 2 seconds for 16 seconds. Thats 1.3 mill in healing if people stack in it for the duration.

  12. #12
    Dreadlord OGXanos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Diminishig returns on "old" avoidance stats mean you can't have enough to reliably mitigate damage anymore. You can prolly reach about 30% mastery, 16% parry and 9% dodge with current hc dungeon gear.

    If you want to do more healsy type stuff too then throw in lights hammer as the level 90 talent. With vengeance you can easily get 16k ticks on EVERY raid member every 2 seconds for 16 seconds. Thats 1.3 mill in healing if people stack in it for the duration.
    Get off my armory brah! lol Thats damn close to my current stats. I think I'm at about 31.5 mast 16.7 parry 8.9 dodge after Mastery self buff. Ilvl 459.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ximinez View Post
    Get off my armory brah! lol Thats damn close to my current stats. I think I'm at about 31.5 mast 16.7 parry 8.9 dodge after Mastery self buff. Ilvl 459.
    Have you tried the reforging yet? Any word on the results it has given you?

    I am in crappy gear ATM, so not much point for me to reforge. Tell me if it's really a huge improvement in performance!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    Is the healing from SOI *that* extreme? I've seen posters show themselves outhealing blood DKs (I would LOVE for that! Though it was prolly raid heals from Battle Healer rather than on himself)
    active mitigation is the key now.. hit/expertise mastery and haste are king stats...

    as for seal of insight. i switched to using it and glyph of the battle healer on my pally never dropped below 80% hp. when i checked overall healing at the end i outhealed the healer without even using wog like once..

  15. #15
    Dreadlord OGXanos's Avatar
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    switched to this new gearing method, still have a bit of pure avoidance gear but it's overall much stronger based on preliminary results. HP rarely gets below 380k my max is about 420k.

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