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  1. #501
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    I for one feel mostly ambivalence towards the Pandaren. At times it feels misplaced, but other times it feels appropriate. Not really sure what to think yet and I prefer not to have a mindset.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    It's obvious that OP plays WoW with his own sight of the lore and his own image of how wow runs. But there is the point: If you don't realize that you have that own image because that's how games and books and whatsoever "run" you will never be able to accept expansions / specifications. Blizzard has implanted the pandas pretty well and explained everything understandable ingame lorewise. It's up to everyone to accept or not accept it.
    Yea, well, thats just like, his opinion, man.

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiandra View Post
    Personally I'm glad for the Pandarian.
    I'm all for conflict, but the Horde vs Alliance stuff has gotten stale for me, time to move on and make a new kind of war.
    Yes, making the alliance and horde one faction would play hell on PvP, but what about adding one or even two new factions to create new chaos?
    Doubt they'll do that, but I am excited by what Wraithion hinted at.
    On top of it all I am glad that Horde has a new race that isn't green, seriously I hate orcs, goblins and trolls and Bloodelves now have competition.
    I've not tried a Monk yet, but from what I have seen and heard they are pretty fun.
    Plenty of conflict brewing to satisfy all my bloodthirsty cravings and in the meantime my cute Panda hunter will be killing hordes of gazelle in vale of two moons to steal their skin and sell on the AH.

    Sit back and wait patiently impatient for the carnage!
    Actually merged factions could still have PvP as "War Games" or training skrmishes. Essentially they could be like two countries at peace with one another but training for joint exercises. i think this scenario would play out nicely.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 08:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    "Strangely, the gnomes refused to send any personnel to aid their allies during the Burning Legion's invasion during the Third War. Though their designs also helped turning the tide against the Legion," The unit was designed by gnomes piloted by dwarves, but yes I did a mistake there is no direct unit gnome in warcraft3

    As for pandas as 4th race, I want a link as proof because I remember every stage of warcraft3 there was no mention at all about pandas as 4th race ever (I even remember early beta where human and orcs build building same style as warcraft2, not to mention there was units in horde in demo that didn't make it to live game)
    I don't see complains from Argus itself (however they will argue about other things like Sargeras shouldn't be fight-able at all etc), pandas made controversial talk first time after Draenei, and unlike BC time where they used to respect us (first and only time Metzen posted on forums and apologized), they didn't say any comment at all



    People were asking for pandas as playable race before even wow was in alpha stage... yeah right
    I was a fan of pandas as a joke, a comical relief, but not to have a complete expansion built around them
    And yet BC is often considered among if not THE highest point by fans. While wrath and cata(where from what i know they listened to alot of groups) are considered among the worst. Hell i for one loved the new cata dungeons pre nerf.

    But yeah i think listening to fans is good in some cases(certain amounts of class feedback) however too much as they had been i think was a mistake.

    So yeah i suspect that this may actually be one of the best if not the best xpac so far.

  4. #504
    I don't get the Panda hate.

    Warcraft as a game has always been comic. The bloodthirsty Horde has grunts saying "Zub Zub!".

    I like Pandas, and accept them as the new playable race. If there was any reason for contention for new race choices, it would have been for me at TBC, when Elves joined the Horde and pre-demonized space goats joined the Alliance. Since then, they're very well integrated into each faction, and I can see pandarens doing the same over time. And as for the haters, well, they gonna hate.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Sivick View Post
    pandaran were specifically made for world of warcraft. this entire expansion has been based off a pandaran character that made it's debut in Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne.
    Pandas were made has an easter egg in an Aprill's fool patch has a joke.
    Bad - This is a bad player, he refuses to learn how to play correctly.
    Casual - This is a player that will let everything else take priority over wow.
    Hardcore - This is a player that is fine with putting things on hold while he's on wow.
    Bad/Good - Measure of Skill.
    Casual/Hardcore - Measure of Time

  6. #506
    Herald of the Titans Zellviren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    On the other hand, the writers deciding they liked that easter egg, making it canon, and taking advantage of a blank lore slate to bring the oft-requested faction war back to the forefront while setting up new long-term plot hooks does constitute legitimate lore.

    Also, until the RPG was deemed non-canon, it was a veritable treasure trove of lore for the pandaren ever since Dark Factions was released.
    I completely agree with you, Callei - all I'm saying is that those choosing to argue that Pandaren lore long predates this expansion are incorrect. It doesn't, and Blizzard are always at pains to say the RPG does not constitute canon. That does not mean that there can't ever be Pandaren lore in the game, or that great ideas in the RPG can't find their way into the world and become canon. That's called innovation, it’s what happened with Pandaria, and it's odd to me that people seem hell-bent against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by unholytestament View Post
    Try 9 years. The joke they admitted to was that before Warcraft 3's release they said Pandaren would be the final playable race (which we later found out to be the undead).
    Try "no", for logical reasons already posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    Well again, I'm asking for the people who disdain the Pandaren so much to please step up and explain their logic to me.
    First and foremost, those bashing individuals who have a problem with the Pandaren need to get over their indignation before any real debate can happen. For example, there are a number of gross mischaracterizations posted, of which there are some blunt examples:

    ”While I'm not one of said people, I will try my best to imitate their insight -
    They believe that Pandaren are childish/immature, and don't want to play a childish/immature game. The irony here being, of course, that such an attitude is in itself immature.
    Any mature person should have no problem looking past the "pandas are a fluffy bear" stigma. Especially after having played through the zones once, and reading / discovering the lore of the Pandaren.”


    Statements like this close-down discussions off the bat, because they imply that anyone who dislikes the Pandaren must, by default, be immature. That’s not how you promote debate; by personally slighting anyone who disagrees with you. People are entitled to their own opinion, are they not?

    It is, however, how you start an argument that goes nowhere, making it akin to trolling.

    Another example:

    ”Im curious on where do this people that think that pandarens are "too childish" draw the line?
    Cow People ... not childish
    Wolf People ... not childish
    Blue Goat People ... not childish

    and then npcs
    Walrus People .. not childish
    Fish People .. not childish

    Pandaren : OMG KUNGFU PANDA, THIS GAME SUXS, KIDS MOVIE INTO WOW”


    Again, this sets the tone of insulting anyone who dislikes the Pandaren by implying that their view can be boiled down to the final, mindless sentence.

    The saddest part is that the first half of the argument is neither valid, nor cogent. It’s sets up a dreadful counter-argument in as childish a way as possible.

    Cow people – based on the Greek Minotaur, a story of an island with a butchering monster.
    Wolf people – based on the lycanthrope legend of which there are countless recounts.
    Goat people – based on goats, an animal frequently associated with Satanism (think “Eredar”).

    Arguments can be made that these races have no childish connotations whatsoever, just as people can try their best to lump the Pandaren in with them and describe them as peas in a pod. The issue, however, is not merely what the models might be based on, but what the culture of each race represents. The tauren are nomadic hunters and respecters of the earth. The worgen are curse-tormented humans with their home destroyed. The draenei are a spiritual, hermetic race born of genocide.

    Every time someone says “lolgnoamz”, I say “horrific biological disaster based on Chernobyl”. Every time someone says “Jamaican trollz”, I say “society of assassins that cultivate hatred”. The problem isn’t the models that could be based on anything depending on who you ask (FFS, people see Jesus in TOAST), but rather how Blizzard culturally chose to represent the race and its origins.

    As you can see, none of this can be considered lowbrow or childish in any way, shape or form. These are all utterly dead arguments and need to be kicked to the curb where they belong. They have absolutely no bearing on whether Pandaren can be considered childish or not.

    Then we come to the Pandaren.

    Just as the ridiculous “lolcowpeople” argument is invalid, so is the “Easter Egg” argument Callei dismantled previously – so let’s ditch it. Regardless of where the idea came from, arguing that it means no lore can ever be created is not based in logic and crumbles under even casual observation.

    The snag with the Pandaren is that they’re arguably the first race not presented against a backdrop of conflict. Orcs, tauren, trolls, the Forsaken, blood elves, goblins, humans, dwarves, gnomes, night elves, draenei and worgen are all born of tragedy in one way or another, and it shapes their outlook in some fashion. This is a trait the Pandaren do not share with the Azerothian races by and large. Living in peace and harmony while growing crops and drinking beer doesn’t paint the first impression of a race that takes itself too seriously. Asking players to do so is, therefore, a stretch.

    Alas, first impressions tend to last – particularly when dealing with Internet-based communities.

    The Sha tormenting the Emperor, the thousand-year assaults by the mantid, the grim task of the Shado-pan or the enslavement by the Mogu are all forgotten against that initial presentation of tubby, anthropomorphic pandas that bear more than a passing resemblance to a beloved character in a children’s movie. Only by getting into the zones, playing the quests and engaging with the content do you start to learn that Pandaren history is every bit as blighted as the Azerothian races, but we’re looking at an amalgamation of constituent parts.

    1) Mists of Pandaria is the most casual-friendly expansion to date.
    2) The initial presentation of Pandaren was far from bleak.
    3) The success of “Kung Fu Panda” could make this cynical marketing.

    When presented on their own, there’s no doubt that each of these arguments hold no water whatsoever. They can be logically blasted while stood on their own, but lambasting an argument that contains all three of these points is far harder.

    Easy-to-consume solo quests and activities are aimed at those with lower attention spans or lower time availability (read “school” and “bed time”), while BlizzCon chose to show pandas frolicking about like Jack Black’s character in a children’s movie. Add this to the fact we know Kotick/Tippl were determined to break into a more Eastern market, and you have an expansion aimed at youngsters who will hopefully be drawn in due to their love of Jack Black.

    The thing is, no matter how much you argue that Pandaren existed before that movie (they did), the similarities are there and there can be absolutely no argument about which of the two franchises is more widely known about. We know the game is becoming more casual and easier to play at the skill floor, and we also know that Activision has caused Blizzard to become more interested in the bottom line than in better games. We’re equally aware that the East has the majority of the subscribers for WoW depending on how you classify said subscribers, so you’re still on a running track down the way.

    Season with Farmville, spice with Pokemon, leave on low heat for 30 minutes and you have yourself one Hell of a marketing challenge.

    Now, please, I’m begging you – don’t recycle the same old arguments that the last 26 pages have already cited. I know them and don’t want to read them again. Blizzard have deliberately promoted 5.0 and Mists of Pandaria as a departure from the OMGSERIOUSFACE slant of the past three expansions, to the point of outright saying so. Sure, war is supposedly coming; but arguing that Pandaren can only be mature, adult characters when Blizzard is putting barmaids called “Alebelly” in the game, is doing the debate a disservice by using strawman arguments or downright trolling.

    For my money, I like the Pandaren. I think it’s a breath of fresh air, a clean lore slate and a well-executed story in itself with more depth than longer standing races have been given in World of Warcraft. Heck, my warrior is now a Pandaren because I think the race is fun. The story of the Paragons is some of Blizzard’s best work in my humblest of opinions, while Savior of Stoneplow possibly even eclipses the Wrathgate in terms of being an epic set piece. If you want to understand how I view Pandaria in general, watch Tom Cruise in “The Last Samurai” and you’ll get a general idea of how I feel.

    But arguing that Pandaren can not be viewed as immature or childish is extremely arrogant, and ignorant of why someone might feel that way. Trying to boil their gut opinion into a silly anecdote about goat people is both insulting, and embarrassing.

    Mind how you go.
    Last edited by Zellviren; 2012-10-09 at 09:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

  7. #507
    Herald of the Titans Zuben's Avatar
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    I think they fit in just fine.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Cow people – based on the Greek Minotaur, a story of an island with a butchering monster.
    Wolf people – based on the lycanthrope legend of which there are countless recounts.
    Goat people – based on goats, an animal frequently associated with Satanism (think “Eredar”).
    I read all your post and I agree with you in every bit except that the reasons that make you like them make me hate them
    If I wanted fresh air I'd play another game (and I did before) then come back to the familiar wow world, a story from scratch in a game that (every expansion) was always based on pre-vanilla wow story in a way or other is also a bad idea, last is they still didn't spend resources on fixing (they need fix now not "upgrade) character models that you see them every sec you play, if not your character you see them in your party dungeon or killing them in pvp

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    That character was a side-joke, never intended to be a serious race.

    Cry moar? :/

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 08:06 AM ----------

    Don't make a panda, then.

    /thread

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  10. #510
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Thylacine: This is a nitpick, but the Tillers farm is closer to Harvest Moon than Farmville, since your farm is visible only to yourself (you can''t bring your friends along to show it off) and it's got a heavy element of befriending your neighbors by giving them gifts/delivering things to them/etc. Where the homage gets problematic is that Farmville is much more widely-known (a farming-slash-slice-of-life-slash-dating-sim game like Harvest Moon is kind of a niche market) so a lot of people have confused the former for the latter.

    As for the RPG, they only went to lengths to point out it isn't canon since Ask CDev #2; up until then they'd held that it fit into their interpretation of canon (which seems to be that the most recent telling of a given event is that event's canon, be it from a novel, comic, the RPG, or the games). When confronted with the numerous glaring inconsistencies, they acknowledged it and changed their stance on the RPG in that you can consider its lore canon only where it's not contradicted elsewhere (and a lot of the Pandaria lore seems to have been cannibalized from said RPG).

    Otherwise I think your post hit a lot of points fairly squarely on the head.

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    "Strangely, the gnomes refused to send any personnel to aid their allies during the Burning Legion's invasion during the Third War. Though their designs also helped turning the tide against the Legion," The unit was designed by gnomes piloted by dwarves, but yes I did a mistake there is no direct unit gnome in warcraft3
    So by following your logic there should be no gnomes in World of Warcraft.
    As for pandas as 4th race, I want a link as proof because I remember every stage of warcraft3 there was no mention at all about pandas as 4th race ever (I even remember early beta where human and orcs build building same style as warcraft2, not to mention there was units in horde in demo that didn't make it to live game)
    Fifth race, actually. I remembered it wrong.

    Back on 2003, Blizzard was soft on the jokes. Warcraft III players logged in into Battle.net to see their icons replaced by … The Lost Vikings. Blizzard announced the new Pandaren Empire race … originally a Samwise artwork joke. However, this was one of those rare April’s Fools that were widely loved by fans and became reality when Blizzard released Warcraft III: Frozen Throne. And to make sure fans won’t think it was a April’s Joke anymore, new lore was added in the Blizzard-licensed Arthaus’ Warcraft RPG: Alliance and Horde Compendium in 2003. Further Pandaren Lore has been added in future RPG Book releases such as Warcraft The Roleplaying Game, Warcraft RPG: Monster Guide, Warcraft RPG: Lands of Conflict, and Warcraft RPG: Magic & Mayhem among others.

    Back in Warcraft III, the pandaren were originally introduced as the "fifth race" for the game as an April Fools joke that many people thought legitimate. But the pandaren's origins extend back even farther than that. In the first BlizzCast in January 2008, during an interview with Samwise Didier, creator of much of Warcraft's concept art (including the first pandaren concept art pieces), Didier commented on the creation of the pandaren.
    I don't see complains from Argus itself (however they will argue about other things like Sargeras shouldn't be fight-able at all etc), pandas made controversial talk first time after Draenei, and unlike BC time where they used to respect us (first and only time Metzen posted on forums and apologized), they didn't say any comment at all
    I like the part where you assume you know the attitude of an entire company based entirely around a single forum post from years ago.

    Absence of evidence and all that.
    People were asking for pandas as playable race before even wow was in alpha stage... yeah right
    I was a fan of pandas as a joke, a comical relief, but not to have a complete expansion built around them
    I fail to see what your opinion of them has to do with what other people have been doing for years.
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  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    I completely agree with you, Callei - all I'm saying is that those choosing to argue that Pandaren lore long predates this expansion are incorrect. It doesn't, and Blizzard are always at pains to say the RPG does not constitute canon. That does not mean that there can't ever be Pandaren lore in the game, or that great ideas in the RPG can't find their way into the world and become canon. That's called innovation, it’s what happened with Pandaria, and it's odd to me that people seem hell-bent against it.




    Try "no", for logical reasons already posted.

    First and foremost, those bashing individuals who have a problem with the Pandaren need to get over their indignation before any real debate can happen. For example, there are a number of gross mischaracterizations posted, of which there are some blunt examples:

    ”While I'm not one of said people, I will try my best to imitate their insight -
    They believe that Pandaren are childish/immature, and don't want to play a childish/immature game. The irony here being, of course, that such an attitude is in itself immature.
    Any mature person should have no problem looking past the "pandas are a fluffy bear" stigma. Especially after having played through the zones once, and reading / discovering the lore of the Pandaren.”


    Statements like this close-down discussions off the bat, because they imply that anyone who dislikes the Pandaren must, by default, be immature. That’s not how you promote debate; by personally slighting anyone who disagrees with you. People are entitled to their own opinion, are they not?

    It is, however, how you start an argument that goes nowhere, making it akin to trolling.

    Another example:

    ”Im curious on where do this people that think that pandarens are "too childish" draw the line?
    Cow People ... not childish
    Wolf People ... not childish
    Blue Goat People ... not childish

    and then npcs
    Walrus People .. not childish
    Fish People .. not childish

    Pandaren : OMG KUNGFU PANDA, THIS GAME SUXS, KIDS MOVIE INTO WOW”


    Again, this sets the tone of insulting anyone who dislikes the Pandaren by implying that their view can be boiled down to the final, mindless sentence.

    The saddest part is that the first half of the argument is neither valid, nor cogent. It’s sets up a dreadful counter-argument in as childish a way as possible.

    Cow people – based on the Greek Minotaur, a story of an island with a butchering monster.
    Wolf people – based on the lycanthrope legend of which there are countless recounts.
    Goat people – based on goats, an animal frequently associated with Satanism (think “Eredar”).

    Arguments can be made that these races have no childish connotations whatsoever, just as people can try their best to lump the Pandaren in with them and describe them as peas in a pod. The issue, however, is not merely what the models might be based on, but what the culture of each race represents. The tauren are nomadic hunters and respecters of the earth. The worgen are curse-tormented humans with their home destroyed. The draenei are a spiritual, hermetic race born of genocide.

    Every time someone says “lolgnoamz”, I say “horrific biological disaster based on Chernobyl”. Every time someone says “Jamaican trollz”, I say “society of assassins that cultivate hatred”. The problem isn’t the models that could be based on anything depending on who you ask (FFS, people see Jesus in TOAST), but rather how Blizzard culturally chose to represent the race and its origins.

    As you can see, none of this can be considered lowbrow or childish in any way, shape or form. These are all utterly dead arguments and need to be kicked to the curb where they belong. They have absolutely no bearing on whether Pandaren can be considered childish or not.

    Then we come to the Pandaren.

    Just as the ridiculous “lolcowpeople” argument is invalid, so is the “Easter Egg” argument Callei dismantled previously – so let’s ditch it. Regardless of where the idea came from, arguing that it means no lore can ever be created is not based in logic and crumbles under even casual observation.

    The snag with the Pandaren is that they’re arguably the first race not presented against a backdrop of conflict. Orcs, tauren, trolls, the Forsaken, blood elves, goblins, humans, dwarves, gnomes, night elves, draenei and worgen are all born of tragedy in one way or another, and it shapes their outlook in some fashion. This is a trait the Pandaren do not share with the Azerothian races by and large. Living in peace and harmony while growing crops and drinking beer doesn’t paint the first impression of a race that takes itself too seriously. Asking players to do so is, therefore, a stretch.

    Alas, first impressions tend to last – particularly when dealing with Internet-based communities.

    The Sha tormenting the Emperor, the thousand-year assaults by the mantid, the grim task of the Shado-pan or the enslavement by the Mogu are all forgotten against that initial presentation of tubby, anthropomorphic pandas that bear more than a passing resemblance to a beloved character in a children’s movie. Only by getting into the zones, playing the quests and engaging with the content do you start to learn that Pandaren history is every bit as blighted as the Azerothian races, but we’re looking at an amalgamation of constituent parts.

    1) Mists of Pandaria is the most casual-friendly expansion to date.
    2) The initial presentation of Pandaren was far from bleak.
    3) The success of “Kung Fu Panda” could make this cynical marketing.

    When presented on their own, there’s no doubt that each of these arguments hold no water whatsoever. They can be logically blasted while stood on their own, but lambasting an argument that contains all three of these points is far harder.

    Easy-to-consume solo quests and activities are aimed at those with lower attention spans or lower time availability (read “school” and “bed time”), while BlizzCon chose to show pandas frolicking about like Jack Black’s character in a children’s movie. Add this to the fact we know Kotick/Tippl were determined to break into a more Eastern market, and you have an expansion aimed at youngsters who will hopefully be drawn in due to their love of Jack Black.

    The thing is, no matter how much you argue that Pandaren existed before that movie (they did), the similarities are there and there can be absolutely no argument about which of the two franchises is more widely known about. We know the game is becoming more casual and easier to play at the skill floor, and we also know that Activision has caused Blizzard to become more interested in the bottom line than in better games. We’re equally aware that the East has the majority of the subscribers for WoW depending on how you classify said subscribers, so you’re still on a running track down the way.

    Season with Farmville, spice with Pokemon, leave on low heat for 30 minutes and you have yourself one Hell of a marketing challenge.

    Now, please, I’m begging you – don’t recycle the same old arguments that the last 26 pages have already cited. I know them and don’t want to read them again. Blizzard have deliberately promoted 5.0 and Mists of Pandaria as a departure from the OMGSERIOUSFACE slant of the past three expansions, to the point of outright saying so. Sure, war is supposedly coming; but arguing that Pandaren can only be mature, adult characters when Blizzard is putting barmaids called “Alebelly” in the game, is doing the debate a disservice by using strawman arguments or downright trolling.

    For my money, I like the Pandaren. I think it’s a breath of fresh air, a clean lore slate and a well-executed story in itself with more depth than longer standing races have been given in World of Warcraft. Heck, my warrior is now a Pandaren because I think the race is fun. The story of the Paragons is some of Blizzard’s best work in my humblest of opinions, while Savior of Stoneplow possibly even eclipses the Wrathgate in terms of being an epic set piece. If you want to understand how I view Pandaria in general, watch Tom Cruise in “The Last Samurai” and you’ll get a general idea of how I feel.

    But arguing that Pandaren can not be viewed as immature or childish is extremely arrogant, and ignorant of why someone might feel that way. Trying to boil their gut opinion into a silly anecdote about goat people is both insulting, and embarrassing.

    Mind how you go.
    That is pure gold. Though the people you are replying to might just go ''TL;DR lolz, lrn2trollbetter, lolz hater''. It's not worth replying to them. They are just close minded idiots, who won't accept the fact, that people don't like the Pandaren.


  13. #513
    Herald of the Titans Zellviren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    I read all your post and I agree with you in every bit except that the reasons that make you like them make me hate them
    If I wanted fresh air I'd play another game (and I did before) then come back to the familiar wow world, a story from scratch in a game that (every expansion) was always based on pre-vanilla wow story in a way or other is also a bad idea, last is they still didn't spend resources on fixing (they need fix now not "upgrade) character models that you see them every sec you play, if not your character you see them in your party dungeon or killing them in pvp
    I’m more than comfortable with differences of personal opinion. For the record, I can understand why some people find Pandaren difficult to accept, for the reasons I already posted.

    You’re entitled to your (in this case, perfectly valid) opinion.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 03:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Thylacine: This is a nitpick, but the Tillers farm is closer to Harvest Moon than Farmville, since your farm is visible only to yourself (you can''t bring your friends along to show it off) and it's got a heavy element of befriending your neighbors by giving them gifts/delivering things to them/etc. Where the homage gets problematic is that Farmville is much more widely-known (a farming-slash-slice-of-life-slash-dating-sim game like Harvest Moon is kind of a niche market) so a lot of people have confused the former for the latter.
    Heh, I’m also comfortable with nit-picking corrections when that’s how they’re presented. :3

    Actually, though, you’re (possibly) inadvertently hitting on an important point – I plumped for the Farmville similarity, despite Harvest Moon being the more accurate comparison, because Farmville is the more commonly known game. I, personally, never played Harvest Moon.

    This is where a lot of the “Kung Fu Panda” criticism comes from, I think. It’s a far better known brand than Chen Stormstout from the Frozen Thone, causing the viewpoint that its derivative; the fact Pandaren technically existed prior to the movies is a secondary argument, barely worth consideration.

    The argument can be made that Mists of Pandaria is based loosely on a children’s film. That doesn’t mean that it was, merely that it might have been. These are small distinctions, but vital.

    Oh, and for the record; I think the Tillers are a great faction. They’re optional in that there’s no obvious reason to farm up (pun intended) your reputation, but doing so is fun in itself and CAN have endgame value in the form of raid feasts and Motes of Harmony.

    A reputation that’s optional, but connected to the wider game?

    The Tillers are probably the best faction ever put into the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    As for the RPG, they only went to lengths to point out it isn't canon since Ask CDev #2; up until then they'd held that it fit into their interpretation of canon (which seems to be that the most recent telling of a given event is that event's canon, be it from a novel, comic, the RPG, or the games). When confronted with the numerous glaring inconsistencies, they acknowledged it and changed their stance on the RPG in that you can consider its lore canon only where it's not contradicted elsewhere (and a lot of the Pandaria lore seems to have been cannibalized from said RPG).
    Aye, I think that’s a fair assessment. It doesn’t really alter my original point (that in-game Pandarian canon didn’t technically exist until the 25th of September, ’12), but I think it’s relatively fair to consider the RPG’s canon unless Blizzard have deliberately contradicted their material.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

  14. #514
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Heh, I’m also comfortable with nit-picking corrections when that’s how they’re presented. :3

    Actually, though, you’re (possibly) inadvertently hitting on an important point – I plumped for the Farmville similarity, despite Harvest Moon being the more accurate comparison, because Farmville is the more commonly known game. I, personally, never played Harvest Moon.
    Yeah, it's a mistake I don't fault people for because, as you said, Farmville is more widely-known and HM tends to be a niche franchise in the States.

    This is where a lot of the “Kung Fu Panda” criticism comes from, I think. It’s a far better known brand than Chen Stormstout from the Frozen Thone, causing the viewpoint that its derivative; the fact Pandaren technically existed prior to the movies is a secondary argument, barely worth consideration.
    It doesn't help that Pandaria uses a similar color palette, I'm sure (despite that color palette being popular in depictions of Ancient China regardless).

    The argument can be made that Mists of Pandaria is based loosely on a children’s film. That doesn’t mean that it was, merely that it might have been. These are small distinctions, but vital.

    Oh, and for the record; I think the Tillers are a great faction. They’re optional in that there’s no obvious reason to farm up (pun intended) your reputation, but doing so is fun in itself and CAN have endgame value in the form of raid feasts and Motes of Harmony.

    A reputation that’s optional, but connected to the wider game?

    The Tillers are probably the best faction ever put into the game.
    I love the Tillers. I find Valley of the Four Winds' slice-of-life approach as a whole makes it one of my favorite zones to level through, with likable characters that you really get to know while you run around depopulating the local wildlife for fun and profit.

    Also, gief Li Li companion pet plox.

    Aye, I think that’s a fair assessment. It doesn’t really alter my original point (that in-game Pandarian canon didn’t technically exist until the 25th of September, ’12), but I think it’s relatively fair to consider the RPG’s canon unless Blizzard have deliberately contradicted their material.
    Less 'alters' and more 'adds to.'

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  15. #515
    Brewmaster Brittany's Avatar
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    Have not started on Pandaria yet, besides doing the Pandaren start area to completion.

    My thoughts were it was the best starting area/race I can remember. The architecture, lore, culture is all around you from the moment you start.

    The ONLY thing I didn't like was the "both sides are good, choose one and represent it well" part. I think that the alliance monk and the horde monk should have got involved in bloody combat and you choose which one to kill. I guess they're faction leaders or whatever lol.

    As for TC you could say the Dutch with their peaceful, happy ways were not the right type of people to be involved in World Wars, but they were. People get dragged up in wars.
    Last edited by Brittany; 2012-10-09 at 03:16 PM.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Etna View Post
    Pandas were made has an easter egg in an Aprill's fool patch has a joke.
    Wrong. Simple as that. Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne had Chen Stormstout as a playable hero. Blizzard had originally planned on having the Pandaren appear in Burning Crusade, but that eventually was changed and later implemented as an April Fool's joke.

    You can argue until you're blue in the face, but fact is fact.

  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Now, please, I’m begging you – don’t recycle the same old arguments that the last 26 pages have already cited. I know them and don’t want to read them again. Blizzard have deliberately promoted 5.0 and Mists of Pandaria as a departure from the OMGSERIOUSFACE slant of the past three expansions, to the point of outright saying so. Sure, war is supposedly coming; but arguing that Pandaren can only be mature, adult characters when Blizzard is putting barmaids called “Alebelly” in the game, is doing the debate a disservice by using strawman arguments or downright trolling.
    Are you really implying that the last three expansions were OMGSERIOUSFACE?
    Because as a player of all expansions and Classic I have to disagree with you.

    The snag with the Pandaren is that they’re arguably the first race not presented against a backdrop of conflict. Orcs, tauren, trolls, the Forsaken, blood elves, goblins, humans, dwarves, gnomes, night elves, draenei and worgen are all born of tragedy in one way or another, and it shapes their outlook in some fashion. This is a trait the Pandaren do not share with the Azerothian races by and large. Living in peace and harmony while growing crops and drinking beer doesn’t paint the first impression of a race that takes itself too seriously. Asking players to do so is, therefore, a stretch.
    Mists of Pandaria is a story about a peaceful society that gets wrecked by despair, anger and hate.
    Yes, all other races are born out of a tragedy. And all those tragedies always happened "in the past".
    Just look at the Orcs: Everything was fine and peaceful, but then they got corrupted and shit hits the fan.
    How great would it be to have an expansion where you could experience that instead of reading it on a Wowwiki-page?
    For 15 years I have played WoW and every single time the great society has already been destroyed!

    We only see the Orcs after the corruption.
    We only see the Humans after Lordaeron was destroyed.
    Night Elf? Only the post-Shattering.
    High/Blood Elves? Only after their city got destroyed.
    Draenei? We meet them after their race got destroyed.
    Gnomes.. Their capital has been taken and it's filled with radiation.


    The story isn't about Pandaren growing crops and drinking beer.
    For the first time in the history of WoW I can meet a great race before their doom, before the corruption and before their cities got annihilated.
    And at the same time I can experience their downfall myself, I don't have to google it to find out what exactly happened.

    Same with the expansions.
    Classic: World was already destroyed.
    TBC: Outlands were already fucked up.
    WotLK: Northrend was taken over by Arthas.
    In all of these games we basically are "too late", the damage has already been done.

    Today I entered Vale of Eternal Blossoms, and I loved it.
    If it were old-style, I would have found it destroyed and corrupted by the Sha.. I would have never been able to see how great those things looked when they were still intact.

  18. #518
    ive read over most of the posts here and the majority of people who hate pandaren are ignorant and have not actually played the game or atleast havent read anything story wise.

    first argument: pandaren are and april fools joke. technically they are correct however it wasnt really an april fools joke more of an inside jab at samwise. that was before they were added to warcraft 3 and after so many fans liked the idea they reworked pandaren a bit, drew up a bunch of concept art and lore and added them in. from that point on the only other time pandaren were used as a joke was in the april fools "pandaren express" joke where they were making fun of everquest see a while back in everquest if you typed /pizza you would be able to order from pizza hut ingame and this joke was that if you typed /panda into wow you could get chinese food. that was the joke only reason it involved pandaren was because it was the easiest one to parody panda express.

    second argument: pandaren are childish peace loving kung fu disney dreamworks whatchamacallits. this is just plain ignorance if you dont have the time to go in and learn about the shado-pan the august celestials, the empirial uprising, the zandalari war, the sha banishment, the origin of the cloud serpent tamers or any other parts of the wars the pandaren have taken part in or part of their military then oyu have no right to say there childish, if you wont take the time to actually look up any of the lore you have no right to comment on it.

    third argument: nobody wanted pandaren/knew about them. thats just not true either, pandaren are the most asked for feature since vanilla whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you doesnt change anything they are the most asked for its fact. as for people not knowing about them sure im willing to assume theres a good amount of wow players who dont know much about warcraft 3 however thats not a valid point. should doctor who not make references to older characters like the brigadier just because alot of new who fans dont know who he is?

    fourth argument: the expansion is all about the pandaren: again another thing that shows ignorance the expansion is about war pandaria is where that war happens after 5.1 comes out we wont see much of the pandaren anymore because will be working with our faction leaders. things like the mogu/zandalri resurgence, the mantid ect ect are all 5.0 storylines in 5.1 the story is about varian with the trials of the high king questline for alliance players, wrathion and his questline being added onto, and jade forest being destroyed in a battle.

    fifth arguement: pandaren dont fit in with wow, while this one is mostly opinion the pandaren themselves have been in warcraft lore for a very long time from their former relationship with the night elves (this is why night elves have asian influence in their architecture along with roman and greek influence instead of the typical mayan influence of the trolls) chen stormstout was at the founding or orgrimmar and helped build it, the children in stormwind talk about seeing or hearing someone talk about a pandaren, some of the dwarves talk about chen, at brewfest there used to be chens keg. note everything i just mentioned is lore that was created BEFORE mists came out or even started development which is more lore then races like gnomes had before they were added into wow.


    so there you go all main complaints against pandaren countered if after all that you still cant seem to get over pandaren then either quit the game or grit your teeth and close your eyes until 5.1 when you wont have to hang around and quest with those damn empire havin, beer brewin, flyin dragon havin, damn pandas O-O
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

  19. #519
    I like Pandarens, they are cute

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    ive read over most of the posts here and the majority of people who hate pandaren are ignorant and have not actually played the game or atleast havent read anything story wise.

    first argument: pandaren are and april fools joke. technically they are correct however it wasnt really an april fools joke more of an inside jab at samwise. that was before they were added to warcraft 3 and after so many fans liked the idea they reworked pandaren a bit, drew up a bunch of concept art and lore and added them in. from that point on the only other time pandaren were used as a joke was in the april fools "pandaren express" joke where they were making fun of everquest see a while back in everquest if you typed /pizza you would be able to order from pizza hut ingame and this joke was that if you typed /panda into wow you could get chinese food. that was the joke only reason it involved pandaren was because it was the easiest one to parody panda express.

    second argument: pandaren are childish peace loving kung fu disney dreamworks whatchamacallits. this is just plain ignorance if you dont have the time to go in and learn about the shado-pan the august celestials, the empirial uprising, the zandalari war, the sha banishment, the origin of the cloud serpent tamers or any other parts of the wars the pandaren have taken part in or part of their military then oyu have no right to say there childish, if you wont take the time to actually look up any of the lore you have no right to comment on it.

    third argument: nobody wanted pandaren/knew about them. thats just not true either, pandaren are the most asked for feature since vanilla whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you doesnt change anything they are the most asked for its fact. as for people not knowing about them sure im willing to assume theres a good amount of wow players who dont know much about warcraft 3 however thats not a valid point. should doctor who not make references to older characters like the brigadier just because alot of new who fans dont know who he is?

    fourth argument: the expansion is all about the pandaren: again another thing that shows ignorance the expansion is about war pandaria is where that war happens after 5.1 comes out we wont see much of the pandaren anymore because will be working with our faction leaders. things like the mogu/zandalri resurgence, the mantid ect ect are all 5.0 storylines in 5.1 the story is about varian with the trials of the high king questline for alliance players, wrathion and his questline being added onto, and jade forest being destroyed in a battle.

    fifth arguement: pandaren dont fit in with wow, while this one is mostly opinion the pandaren themselves have been in warcraft lore for a very long time from their former relationship with the night elves (this is why night elves have asian influence in their architecture along with roman and greek influence instead of the typical mayan influence of the trolls) chen stormstout was at the founding or orgrimmar and helped build it, the children in stormwind talk about seeing or hearing someone talk about a pandaren, some of the dwarves talk about chen, at brewfest there used to be chens keg. note everything i just mentioned is lore that was created BEFORE mists came out or even started development which is more lore then races like gnomes had before they were added into wow.


    so there you go all main complaints against pandaren countered if after all that you still cant seem to get over pandaren then either quit the game or grit your teeth and close your eyes until 5.1 when you wont have to hang around and quest with those damn empire havin, beer brewin, flyin dragon havin, damn pandas O-O
    What if I told you, that you can't make me like the Pandaren?


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