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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by AiAtola View Post
    It's an MMO-RPG, people should be playing in the Open World and not be stuck in main cities 99% of the time. And yes the instances entraces are in the world, but the instances are in "De Sitter space", also people use the teleport LFD tool so it made the world empty. That was the main problem with Cataclysm, that expansion didn't had the epic WoW feeling.

    People want to play World of Warcraft, the epic MMO-RPG, not Stormwind of Warcraft.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 11:34 AM ----------



    Translator?
    So you've been playing wow since 2004? You must've started playing as a toddler then because the way you communicate seems to suggest you're about 14 years old. There's a lot of valid thoughts being made about the lack of rewarding gameplay at the moment and how they switched from getting gear in dungeons to getting gear by doing dailes. I've also played since 2004. So if that is what makes your arguments valid then we're at a stalemate since I agree with the OP.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 03:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zefix View Post
    i thought bout coming back after ~3 month break - but
    If its one thing i hate about WoW its "daily quests".

    You can send me running the same dungeon over and over - for gear, rep, points, fun, whatever. I never had a negative thought about tbc while running non-hcs for rep to get the heroic-key (and learning to play my class in a not-so-punitive-world); i remember doing the "3 mark mecha run", running utgarde keep for over one month on a daily basis for my tanking-sword. I like dungeons + raids (i prefer the slight more difficult ones instead of the wotlk-zergfests)

    Worst time in WoW? Fireland-Dailys (for gear + acvs), TolBarad-Dailys (for tank-trinket with 4 chars), Shattered Sun dailys, ogrilla a.s.o. not to forget you HAVE to quest 2/3 of deepholme to get neutral with therazane with every non-inscriptioneer-toon.

    They removed the "you have to"-daily dungeon thingy long ago - great move. But then introduce dailys for gear again?

    I'm not a big fan of questing - sure, leveling=questing and that's ok - but questing at maxlevel? nah... that's what alts are for

    Tenor was, they want players to have the decision what they want to do - but you don't have it. You "have" to do dungeons till you have your set complete and you HAVE to do your dailys. Dungeons afterwards give next-to-zero award AND are just a simple zergfest.

    So i assume, mop is the worst that could happen for me and i should not come back



    p.s.: tell me the difference in "5 people running silent through a dungeon" and "5-10 people gathering daily-quest-items without communicating" other then "one is instanced, one is in open world". (playing on a pve-server, so pvp+ganking is not a valid reason for me)
    You've put words to my thoughts.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefix View Post
    i thought bout coming back after ~3 month break - but
    If its one thing i hate about WoW its "daily quests".

    You can send me running the same dungeon over and over - for gear, rep, points, fun, whatever. I never had a negative thought about tbc while running non-hcs for rep to get the heroic-key (and learning to play my class in a not-so-punitive-world); i remember doing the "3 mark mecha run", running utgarde keep for over one month on a daily basis for my tanking-sword. I like dungeons + raids (i prefer the slight more difficult ones instead of the wotlk-zergfests)

    Worst time in WoW? Fireland-Dailys (for gear + acvs), TolBarad-Dailys (for tank-trinket with 4 chars), Shattered Sun dailys, ogrilla a.s.o. not to forget you HAVE to quest 2/3 of deepholme to get neutral with therazane with every non-inscriptioneer-toon.

    They removed the "you have to"-daily dungeon thingy long ago - great move. But then introduce dailys for gear again?

    I'm not a big fan of questing - sure, leveling=questing and that's ok - but questing at maxlevel? nah... that's what alts are for

    Tenor was, they want players to have the decision what they want to do - but you don't have it. You "have" to do dungeons till you have your set complete and you HAVE to do your dailys. Dungeons afterwards give next-to-zero award AND are just a simple zergfest.

    So i assume, mop is the worst that could happen for me and i should not come back



    p.s.: tell me the difference in "5 people running silent through a dungeon" and "5-10 people gathering daily-quest-items without communicating" other then "one is instanced, one is in open world". (playing on a pve-server, so pvp+ganking is not a valid reason for me)
    Jesus, the worst times for you where the best times for me in WoW lol. Quel'thalas Island was so epic, the w-pvp back then is something i will never forget.
    "PvE is like playing chess against an opponent that makes the same moves everytime"

    "PvP is like playing chess"

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    You've got to be kidding me. This has been the least rewarding dungeon experience I've ever had in this game and I"ve been grinding my face off in dungeons for at least 6 years now. It's piss easy so theirs no sense of personal reward from it. The rate that you acquire jp and vp at is slow as hell so it doesn't feel rewarding from a gear perspective. The JP is also worthless because the gear is just so bad. The drops you need are subject to such huge amounts of rng I end up leaving dungeons before they finish anyway because the boss I need doesn't drop the loot I need. I don't get rep and it doesn't look like their going to make that happen any time soon. WHAT THE FUCK IS REWARDING ABOUT DUNGEONS? Look I swore I would never start a thread in this general forum because it will just get shouted down but I can't fucking help it. Please don't shout this down with bullshit, I'm just so stunned they feel this way.
    You lost all credability from the bolded section.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Xinogaz View Post
    So you've been playing wow since 2004? You must've started playing as a toddler then because the way you communicate seems to suggest you're about 14 years old. There's a lot of valid thoughts being made about the lack of rewarding gameplay at the moment and how they switched from getting gear in dungeons to getting gear by doing dailes. I've also played since 2004. So if that is what makes your arguments valid then we're at a stalemate since I agree with the OP.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 03:58 PM ----------



    You've put words to my thoughts.
    Im 33 years old and english is not my native language, sorry for that.

    In my opinion, the worst times ever in this game was between LFD tool launch in Wrath and MOP launch, i play this game for the open world epic mmo-rpg experience, having 99% of the population in major cities idle ruined that experience for me.

    My favorite times ever was the Quel'thalas Island dailies (patch 2.4?), i loved TBC but that zone was so amayzing, no flying mounts, great quests and great W-PvP. Firelands dailies where also cool, they only thing i liked in Cata.
    "PvE is like playing chess against an opponent that makes the same moves everytime"

    "PvP is like playing chess"

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefix View Post
    i thought bout coming back after ~3 month break - but
    If its one thing i hate about WoW its "daily quests".

    You can send me running the same dungeon over and over - for gear, rep, points, fun, whatever. I never had a negative thought about tbc while running non-hcs for rep to get the heroic-key (and learning to play my class in a not-so-punitive-world); i remember doing the "3 mark mecha run", running utgarde keep for over one month on a daily basis for my tanking-sword. I like dungeons + raids (i prefer the slight more difficult ones instead of the wotlk-zergfests)

    Worst time in WoW? Fireland-Dailys (for gear + acvs), TolBarad-Dailys (for tank-trinket with 4 chars), Shattered Sun dailys, ogrilla a.s.o. not to forget you HAVE to quest 2/3 of deepholme to get neutral with therazane with every non-inscriptioneer-toon.

    They removed the "you have to"-daily dungeon thingy long ago - great move. But then introduce dailys for gear again?

    I'm not a big fan of questing - sure, leveling=questing and that's ok - but questing at maxlevel? nah... that's what alts are for

    Tenor was, they want players to have the decision what they want to do - but you don't have it. You "have" to do dungeons till you have your set complete and you HAVE to do your dailys. Dungeons afterwards give next-to-zero award AND are just a simple zergfest.

    So i assume, mop is the worst that could happen for me and i should not come back

    p.s.: tell me the difference in "5 people running silent through a dungeon" and "5-10 people gathering daily-quest-items without communicating" other then "one is instanced, one is in open world". (playing on a pve-server, so pvp+ganking is not a valid reason for me)

    Yeah this is me completely as well, I couldn't agree more on basically every point. I don't usually post just to agree, but this deserves an exception.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Elementalkin View Post
    Maybe I've just been out of the endgame loop for a while, but I don't really understand what the fuss is about. If you're looking for difficult and rewarding content, then do challenge modes. There's unique class specific gear up for grabs that you won't be able to acquire any other way than by being on par with the best on your server, and the e-cred that goes with that. Is that not good enough, or am I missing something?
    I think it is the perceived laziness on Blizzard's part that gives challenge modes a somewhat bad rap.

    Blizz: "Oh you finished the dungeon on normal mode? Ok, go do it again, this time just go faster!" And we'll give you a free t-shirt if you do!"

    It just feels cheap and contrived.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruwon View Post
    You lost all credability from the bolded section.
    Why? Should I continue running the dungeon when the net gain is next to nothing? Furthermore virtually every party I find these days has another person just like me who leaves after the boss is dead and the loot they get doesn't drop. I don't expect them to say I don't see why anyone should expect me to either.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 07:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AiAtola View Post
    Jesus, the worst times for you where the best times for me in WoW lol. Quel'thalas Island was so epic, the w-pvp back then is something i will never forget.
    I liked Iqod to for all of a week and even then it was only because it didn't matter wether or now I contributed. I could if I chose and had the time but otherwise the event would still go on. It was a neat thing that promoted community to an extent because everyone had a hand in it. This is just dailies for the single player sake of dailies.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-06 at 07:52 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #88
    People were complaining they had no reason to leave SW/Org, just spending all day portalling to randoms to get gear. They also complained seriously hard when said content was actually slightly challenging for them.

    Now they are complaining because if they do that, it's not rewarding enough and a little easy. Despite the fact challenge modes are there now to fill in the gap of hard content.

    Cool.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Just to chime in. He's actually right.

    I've been in top raiding guilds for most of my WoW lifetime and almost everybody in those circles disliked justice (and later valor) points vendors since they were first introduced in TBC. They were specifically called welfare vendors then and people wearing JP or VP gear was mocked as badly as people wearing PvP gear in dungeons and would get you kicked from groups back then.

    So yeah... JP and VP vendors always carried around a bit of a stigma for a while. This has been less prevalent the past few years though.
    These are I assume the spiritual brothers and sisters of the same people who insisted that the only way for Blizzard to proceed with the it's next expansion was to make sure the dungeons weren't faceroll and were over tuned? Let's review the course of that decision shall we. People were pissed. Ghostcrawler wrote a blog. Content was nerfed. Heroic Dungeons in MoP are now even easier than in wrath. Challenge modes were introduced to compensate. People were given options in how they wanted to do things. First of all I'd rather not think Mists is Cataclysm 2.0 but it's starting to feel that way. We've got content that's really regressive in terms of being convenient and easily accessible. People are unhappy. It's being nerfed already. Next step Blog. Second of all how long do I have to wait before they give me the same options?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 07:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bansa View Post
    People were complaining they had no reason to leave SW/Org, just spending all day portalling to randoms to get gear. They also complained seriously hard when said content was actually slightly challenging for them.

    Now they are complaining because if they do that, it's not rewarding enough and a little easy. Despite the fact challenge modes are there now to fill in the gap of hard content.

    Cool.
    People were complaining dungeons were to faceroll easy in wrath. Now people are complaining dungeons are to hard in cataclysm.

    We're back again with all the same rationalizations and justifications for decisions made based on the feedback of a handful of small players who have taken the forums hostage in some fucking holy crusade against anything that grants users ease of access. The thing that made wow a massive success, making the game progressively more casual friendly and progressively more easier for users to see content apparently is (according to some) it's downfall. This is literally the history of warcraft in a nutshell btw. It was an MMO that made it's name because it was not only far less grindy than the competition but it was also far more accessible overall for the single user to play. It is why WoW became the huge behemoth of success that it is today and it is also why the last really regressive change they made (WOW DUNGEONS ARE HARD) in cata was so poorly recieved and eventually abandoned. I have no problem with challenge modes they provide a great function. I do however have a problem with the regular heroics being so unrewarding because they don't provide you with enough reward. Either through being engaging in terms of difficulty or giving you fucking gear.

    Cool.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-06 at 08:06 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #90
    Herald of the Titans Pancaspe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    You've got to be kidding me. This has been the least rewarding dungeon experience I've ever had in this game and I"ve been grinding my face off in dungeons for at least 6 years now. It's piss easy so theirs no sense of personal reward from it. The rate that you acquire jp and vp at is slow as hell so it doesn't feel rewarding from a gear perspective. The JP is also worthless because the gear is just so bad. The drops you need are subject to such huge amounts of rng I end up leaving dungeons before they finish anyway because the boss I need doesn't drop the loot I need. I don't get rep and it doesn't look like their going to make that happen any time soon. WHAT THE FUCK IS REWARDING ABOUT DUNGEONS? Look I swore I would never start a thread in this general forum because it will just get shouted down but I can't fucking help it. Please don't shout this down with bullshit, I'm just so stunned they feel this way.
    I am certain I can search your history and find numerous posts crying about "Welfare Epics". So now that the system effects YOU, it is a problem.
    @Ghostcrawler:Some advice: [My pet issue] is why there were sub losses is one of the weaker arguments players use. Players don't have that data.

  11. #91
    Seems there are a lot of people in this thread that think you are being forced to do dailies.

    The valor gear is 489, which is on par with Mogu'Shan Normal. Pretty much any guild should be clearing Mogu'Shan by the end of its cycle, so you'll get loot on par from just doing that. Afterwards you have LFR, plus Heart / Terrace to push through. All you need is a little bit of heroic dungeon gear to get you going.

    The problem is the "I need it now" mentality that people have in Warcraft. During BC days, people enjoyed the game more because they knew that it took time to get what you wanted. If you were a hardcore player, you grinded out what you needed for hours at a time. If you were a casual player, you recognized that it would take you months to get the gear that you wanted. Now, everyone thinks they need and deserve everything one day after hitting level 90.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancaspe View Post
    I am certain I can search your history and find numerous posts crying about "Welfare Epics". So now that the system effects YOU, it is a problem.

    Go ahead and look. Let me know what you find. I should note I haven't been on these forums that long, in fact I've been playing wow for far longer and during vanilla/tbc at one point I was the guy grinding shit out over and over again and trying to gear my guy out. The game grew and changed alot since then and so did I. This however is just a total and absolute regression.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 08:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    Seems there are a lot of people in this thread that think you are being forced to do dailies.

    The valor gear is 489, which is on par with Mogu'Shan Normal. Pretty much any guild should be clearing Mogu'Shan by the end of its cycle, so you'll get loot on par from just doing that. Afterwards you have LFR, plus Heart / Terrace to push through. All you need is a little bit of heroic dungeon gear to get you going.

    The problem is the "I need it now" mentality that people have in Warcraft. During BC days, people enjoyed the game more because they knew that it took time to get what you wanted. If you were a hardcore player, you grinded out what you needed for hours at a time. If you were a casual player, you recognized that it would take you months to get the gear that you wanted. Now, everyone thinks they need and deserve everything one day after hitting level 90.
    Not for a second do I feel that way. I do however feel that everything you could stand to gain from these heroic dungeons is far to gated. It's far to paltry and you don't get enough out of each heroic to make it even worth doing. If the boss doesn't drop what I need why stay around? The model they had for what like 5 years now? Yea that model worked fine. If their concern was that people gear out to fast well okay then DROP THE CAP OF VP FOR EACH WEEK. Make it 500 instead of 1000. Christ I probably won't even reach 500 this week let alone 1000. If I push I'll make 750 but at this point I can't be arsed to do any of it. It's so BORING and so unrewarding. It is however the simplest and neatest solution but instead they threw VP behind rep for some absurd reason and double gated it. Just as in cataclysm their were a handful of people who insisted that WOW MUST BE HARDER or must be more of a wall and that didn't work out very well in cataclysm. In fact in cataclysm they tried to make it more difficult, turned into a mess. Now they just want it to be more grindy, probably be a mess as well.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-06 at 08:15 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Just to chime in. He's actually right.

    I've been in top raiding guilds for most of my WoW lifetime and almost everybody in those circles disliked justice (and later valor) points vendors since they were first introduced in TBC. They were specifically called welfare vendors then and people wearing JP or VP gear was mocked as badly as people wearing PvP gear in dungeons and would get you kicked from groups back then.

    So yeah... JP and VP vendors always carried around a bit of a stigma for a while. This has been less prevalent the past few years though.
    Yeah I bet those same guilds were just so happy to stop progression in Black Temple and go back to Karazhan/TK to gearup/attune the replacements for their burned out raid.

  14. #94
    Pandaren Monk Faithshield's Avatar
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    Well all the nonsense about grinds, maybe the MoP grind is too severe I don't know. However, WoW is more than a glorified dungeon/instance queuing system, and maybe the players need to be reminded of that?
    "If you look out of the window as a human being, at nature, all of nature is unconditionally and absolutely beautiful wherever it is. Whether it's a jungle. Whether it's a desert. Whether it's the Arctic wastes. Or even your own back garden. The only ugly things you will ever see when you look out of the window are things made by man." - Stephen Fry

  15. #95
    To be perfectly honest I am rather non-plussed by the shift to do dailies and the '5' VP points you get for 'some' of them. I suppose its a real good thing that Blizzard made the dailies fairly easy to do, especially for Prot Paladins.

    EDIT: Ah, a quick look in game made me realize just what Blizzard did to annoy the hell out of me- they reverted the Daily Dungeon VP award from 7 times a week whenever, to 1 a day. Lame.

  16. #96
    Pandaren Monk skatblast's Avatar
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    dont complain about grinding in an mmo. go play Fable 3

  17. #97
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    Look I swore I would never start a thread in this general forum because it will just get shouted down but I can't fucking help it.
    You could have helped it... /facepalm
    Last edited by Inflammable; 2012-10-06 at 08:39 PM.

  18. #98
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    You know the other bizarre thing about this is that every time Blizzard made a decision that was progressive and helpful to the community their was a battle between people on forums who insisted that it was good and the right thing to do and didn't effect anyone elses play style so why do you care? versus the people who insisted hey were hardcore your making the game to casual it's lame. Dungeons are hard is an excellent example of that. The change to heroic dungeons where you can do all 7 at your own pace instead of one a day is another example. The second group is still around as evidenced by this thread but all the people who defended them before when they made progressive decisions well where the fuck are you people? They've made decisions in this expansion that are diametrically opposed to that and all you hear is the same blizzard defenders adjusting their positions in accordance with Blizzard as opposed to pointing out the serious regression and change in their logic. I'm sorry I just can't help but notice that instead of being upset that Blizzard changed it's position, a position many of you defended against so called haters when Blizzard changes it's position instead of being upset about it you go along with the party line.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 08:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by skatblast View Post
    dont complain about grinding in an mmo. go play Fable 3
    Except for the simple fact that wow became a success by moving away from that kind of thing.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 08:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Inflammable View Post
    You could have helped it... /facepalm
    Actually it hasn't turned out that way for the most part. I've had rather good conversations with people.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-06 at 08:40 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #99
    wow is less grindy than it ever has been, I have no idea what you are on about.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zylos View Post
    wow is less grindy than it ever has been, I have no idea what you are on about.
    If you discount running umpteenth amount of dailies to unlock reputation for gear progression. Sure. Dailies tied to reputation are the most obnoxious, time wasting and boring form of grind ever. I any event it is also not the point. The dungeons are simply not rewarding by any relative or comparative measure. Funny enough I haven't seen anyone telling me I'm wrong about that, just that it's not a bad thing.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-06 at 08:48 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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