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  1. #141
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    I don't understand the qq about dungeons, the people who are bad or just don't have a lot of time get easy content and the people who actually want a challenge have challenge modes.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    \

    *sigh* It's sad when the official forums have better discussion than these. I'm done feel free to troll the fuck out of this thread, hell I might do it. I've been straw manned to death it seems. How utterly sad and disappointing.
    No straw-man in my argument, just disagreement. I didn't compare expansions, nor qualify your comments, I just disagree.

    In order to get the complete rewards from a Dungeon run, you need to complete the run. Of course you feel un-rewarded because you'll only accept exactly what you want as a reward.

    This expansion is veering away from the insta-gratification scheme, it may be that you are truly not into it. That's fine, but to blame the rewards for your not completing a task is pretty childish.

    My last line was a bit of a Troll, but my sentiment is correct. My advice: "If you don;t like it, don;t do it, and stop yer whining".

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    These are I assume the spiritual brothers and sisters of the same people who insisted that the only way for Blizzard to proceed with the it's next expansion was to make sure the dungeons weren't faceroll and were over tuned? Let's review the course of that decision shall we. People were pissed. Ghostcrawler wrote a blog. Content was nerfed. Heroic Dungeons in MoP are now even easier than in wrath. Challenge modes were introduced to compensate. People were given options in how they wanted to do things. First of all I'd rather not think Mists is Cataclysm 2.0 but it's starting to feel that way. We've got content that's really regressive in terms of being convenient and easily accessible. People are unhappy. It's being nerfed already. Next step Blog. Second of all how long do I have to wait before they give me the same options?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 07:58 PM ----------



    People were complaining dungeons were to faceroll easy in wrath. Now people are complaining dungeons are to hard in cataclysm.

    We're back again with all the same rationalizations and justifications for decisions made based on the feedback of a handful of small players who have taken the forums hostage in some fucking holy crusade against anything that grants users ease of access. The thing that made wow a massive success, making the game progressively more casual friendly and progressively more easier for users to see content apparently is (according to some) it's downfall. This is literally the history of warcraft in a nutshell btw. It was an MMO that made it's name because it was not only far less grindy than the competition but it was also far more accessible overall for the single user to play. It is why WoW became the huge behemoth of success that it is today and it is also why the last really regressive change they made (WOW DUNGEONS ARE HARD) in cata was so poorly recieved and eventually abandoned. I have no problem with challenge modes they provide a great function. I do however have a problem with the regular heroics being so unrewarding because they don't provide you with enough reward. Either through being engaging in terms of difficulty or giving you fucking gear.

    Cool.
    All it proves is that Blizzard can't please everyone. Whatever they do, people will fly off the handle. Dungeons are too easy! They cry. Blizzard makes them harder. Dungeons are too hard! They cry. Blizzard makes them easier. Dungeons are too easy they cry! Etc etc etc.

    This way, now, they have at least put challenge modes in game, which means you have at least some challenge if you want it, and can faceroll your epic lootz if you want that too.

  4. #144
    Originally Posted by Twilightdawn
    If you don't like it, quit the game, and stop complaining, seriously, not to be a dick, but if you hate the system so much, unsub.
    I think we're fine where we are, god forbid you have to work for your reputations
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    I did already....
    Then why do you care about how rewards are handled? You're not playing so why would you care if epics were mailed to you every week on onehand or if they were only from heroic raiding.

    If you've quit, go outside. It's pathetic to see people who claim they don't even play ranting about how the game's working.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uricidea View Post
    No straw-man in my argument, just disagreement. I didn't compare expansions, nor qualify your comments, I just disagree.

    In order to get the complete rewards from a Dungeon run, you need to complete the run. Of course you feel un-rewarded because you'll only accept exactly what you want as a reward.

    This expansion is veering away from the insta-gratification scheme, it may be that you are truly not into it. That's fine, but to blame the rewards for your not completing a task is pretty childish.

    My last line was a bit of a Troll, but my sentiment is correct. My advice: "If you don;t like it, don;t do it, and stop yer whining".
    Your last line was a huge straw man. I don't want gear handed to me on a silver platter, I just want the dungeons to be more rewarding than they are. Even when you complete the dungeon it still isn't rewarding as it was in every other iteration of this dungeon grind game. It's no more instant gratification to grind out rep in a dungeon than grind out rep in daily quests. It's exactly the same thing.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #146
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    So op you leave groups half way through if you don't get your loot and you then whine about your lack of reward?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Your last line was a huge straw man. I don't want gear handed to me on a silver platter, I just want the dungeons to be more rewarding than they are. Even when you complete the dungeon it still isn't rewarding as it was in every other iteration of this dungeon grind game. It's no more instant gratification to grind out rep in a dungeon than grind out rep in daily quests. It's exactly the same thing.

    My initial postings' last line wasn't a Straw-man, it was an insult. Get your Rhetorical Terms straight.

    This is a new set-up designed to strike a balance. It is frustrating to be on one end of the curve or another and find that you have to adapt, but that's the world. I think you may have adapted, if you have quit. I suspect you say you have to deflect that argument, just as you mis-use Straw-man in an attempt to defect mine.

    You cannot be convinced, nor mollified so, my piece has been said. Good luck in your future endeavors.

  8. #148
    One could argue it's equally grindy to have to farm dungeons for rep when you no longer need any gear from them, especially when you can generally gear up in full heroic gear much quicker than you can hit exalted with even one faction via dungeon rep. And trust me, doing dailies is going to be much less time consuming in the long run...and there is nothing less repetitive about running the same dungeons over and over again than doing the same quests, which to be fair, there are rarely more than a couple that are the same every day. At least with dailies, not only do they get you out in the world, they provide some 'gated' reputation if you will, whereas you can pick one faction, grind it out in one 12 hour sitting and have all the stuff you want from them.

    I suppose they could offer additional ways to get some rep, for example if you could loot an item from a final heroic boss once per day that you could then turn into one of the factions as a 'gift' and get a little boost in rep, but I don't dislike their 'getting out into the world' attitude...it keeps people with something to do and makes use of the zones beyond a means to reach max level and never go back.

    All that being said, you do not *need* any rep at all unless you really want the rewards, in which case, earn them, and they will mean more to you. Half of the reputations don't even offer any JP or VP gear to begin with (Anglers/Jade Serpent/Tillers). You can stop doing the Klaxxi and even the Golden Lotus at revered once you have unlocked all of their VP gear, and even at that the Golden Lotus seems to be the only really essential one to do as it unlocks two other reputations. If all you are doing is LFR or heroic dungeons...or scenarios or even Challenge modes, you do not *need* the VP stuff. You don't, you don't need it, it's essentially overkill for any of those things. Not to mention, there are a couple of honored VP items, and I'm pretty sure I was honored with the Klaxxi before I even dinged 90, so there is one item right there.
    Last edited by PBitt; 2012-10-06 at 10:06 PM.

  9. #149
    People keep saying this, but I don't understand what the problem is with grinding some daily's etc for your gear.

    Look at Cata - ding 85, spend maybe one day doing Heroics and you're good for raid finder and for DS normal soon after that. Where do you go from there? Sitting around in Orgrimmar / Stormwind, trolling trade, using the game basically as an IM.

    Now look at MoP, where you are gated from the reason your are probably into the game (getting gear) by a series of daily's and reputation grinds: you're out in the world, you're flying around, you're experiencing the new expansion in ways that are far more compelling than the inside of Orgrimmar.

    I also was not dissapointed with Dungeon Difficulties - as far as I'm concerned, it's fine that they give less VP because let's face it - they are also a lot shorter, and so you can do several in a day, again giving you more to do if you want to: there's always something to play for in MoP, and that's what was missing in Cata sorely.

  10. #150

    I'm not raging, I'm trying to make a point about how unrewarding dungeons will be now and in the long run if something isn't done. I still have yet to hear anyone tell me I"m wrong they are just as rewarding. The simple fact is by any comparative measure they aren't. As far as I can tell for no good reason... You may like that they suck and that's fine.
    What you're missing is that Blizzard doesn't want people to strongly prefer running dungeons because they're significantly more rewarding. Dailies give you some gold and VP/JP and some rep. Dungeons give drops. If dungeons gave rep and VP/JP at the same rate as dailies everyone would run dungeons until they're capped *whether or not they really wanted to* if their goal was rep or points. Why? Because they'd be getting the same rep/hour or points/hour AND getting drop chances.

    Think of it like gear. Gear of a given item level has a stat budget... you can add some of one stat, but you'll need to reduce other stats to stay in the budget. If you don't, then the itemlevel becomes higher and if two items are both good for your toon which do you prefer? Right, the higher ilevel one because it gives you more. Similarly, if you let dungeons give players the same rep/hour and the same points/hour AND you let them give drops to the players then you're making the dungeons a higher 'ilevel' vs dailies. So what they're trying to do is acknowledge that you can get drops so the other 'stats' (VP/JP and rep) need to be reduced to stay in budget.

    I do see your objection, but frankly it's undermined by the fact that you gave up so fast. Like it or not, that makes it seem like you won't play if it's not precisely what you want and has an entitlement feeling. Me, I'd like it if the game could figure out that the group I'm in doesn't have any drops that we need in a dungeon and hike up the points and rep rate. That's one issue with this system... after you have all of the drops you need fro ma dungeon you're getting penalized by the logic I laid out above and dungeons become less rewarding than dailies.

    However, the fact is that there's simply not any one scheme for rep or points that will please everyone. The people who can easily get a group together and like dungeons will always want those to be rewarding. The people who like to play more or less solo will be fine with dailies that they can knock out in 30 minutes.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by razski View Post
    The only problem I currently have with the Dungeons/raids is the RNG dropping items that no one in the group can use. For example, a 5 man with no mail wearers and all the bosses dropping mail. Pointless.
    Welcome to MMO's where gear isn't just handed to you so you can leave the following month and bitch you had nothing to do.

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