Tanks' DPS is WAYYY too high.

[fangless]

Why do tanks have to have horrible damage?

Stop being stuck on old mechanics.

[kenshinag]

PPS: They actually could have went with a fourth role, Buffer/Support, which would have basically been the Off-Healer/Buffer/Off-Damage player, and if such a class existed in WoW, I would play it immediately. (In terms of FFXI, this would be a Red Mage or Bard)

This was shammy until WotLK. I remember having to be in the rogue group to drop windfury totem and the aggro reduction totem for them.

[Christan]

No, because high tank dps relies on Vengeance even on non-gimmick fights and for Vengeance you need to be hit in the face. You can't just remove dps and play with 5 healers and 20 tanks. The only negative effect of high tank dps is hurt mage egos.

pretty much this, according to OP's logs, there ARE people beating tanks, so it is indeed possible.

the point of the dps game so you don't have that hurt ego is now to beat tank dps.

it's possible, why aren't you doing it (this isn't directed at broken rogues...i feel for you guys atm)

Vengeance don't get worse with more avoidance, or better doing /sit. Vengeance is a 2% of the melee damage you would have received with 0 armor, no avoidance, no block, no % for stances, no nothing. Parrying 10 attacks on a row gives the same vengeance that getting naked and giving your back to the boss.

avoidance doesn't give vengeance, mitigation does, avoiding damage completely gives zero out of a zero possible unmitigated,
if you dodge a blow completely naked, it is still zero damage,
only mitigation does(armor, cooldowns, block--)

It's a perfectly legit strat and I wouldn't be shocked if some cutting edge guilds balanced the increased damage with the increased dps in an attempt to beat tight enrages. I don't think he was suggesting extremes.

some of the top end guilds indeed did this for ultraxion heroic second week of DS actually, it has already been done.

that was before the new veng changes 2% regardless for mitigation only blizzard did recently fix it so overkill damage doesn't work (the last week of DS, i was getting 50k AP from impales roflroflrofl)
granted it didn't last to long, i'd pop a dps cd right after ofc! gogo beserk and enrage!

[Zabyt]

Why do tanks have to have horrible damage?

Stop being stuck on old mechanics.

"tank".. tanks damage..
Damage Dealer... Does damage.

Should make sense even for a 5 year old.

[Holo]

Same thing happened early cata. Things will stabelize sooner or later. Calm down.

[shise]

Look, if the tank putdps you right now there are two options:


1-Your gear is just not there yet, and now tanks relay on their damage aswell.
2-You have another kind of issue...

[darkwarrior42]

Why do tanks have to have horrible damage?

Stop being stuck on old mechanics.

If tanks can do more damage than dps while also performing a critical role, they're the spotlights of the raid.

One could argue that they always were, but with this setup they absolutely are. Everyone else in the raid is just there to help the tank get the job done.

Why should anyone that rolls a character solely for the purpose of doing damage (specializing in damage, one might say... as if it were their role in the raid or something) be happy if, by design, an entirely different role within the raid (one that does not say "focuses on dealing damage to the enemy) is able to equal and exceed their output?

If I'm playing a dps and another dps beats me, that's life. If I'm playing a dps and a tank beats me on a gimmicky fight (such as Alysrazor), that's fine. If a tank beats me on multiple fights because of a gimmick inherent to the role (which is not the same as a gimmick fight), then that's a flaw in the system.

There's a difference between having the best damage and having decent damage. A tank doing 20% of the damage of a dps is not fun for the tank. A tank doing 100%+ of the damage of a dps is illogical and not much fun for the dps. There is room for a compromise in between those extremes.

Edit: For clarity, I don't play WoW atm. This is entirely a theoretical post, based on the assumption that tanks are able to match or exceed the dps of specialists on non-gimmick fights (meaning: fights that don't artificially inflate tank dps through buffs or debuffs that explicitly increase damage, as opposed to inflating tank damage through vengeance). If that's not the case, then this entire discussion is purely theoretical.

[momirmaster]

Call it whatever you like, it just takes away the fun and makes your effort worth less.

\

you do realize that tanks will scale 0 with gear right? and tanks right now are pulling 50-60kish on fights. ALL DPS classes are simming in full normal mode gear at 75k+ in heroic gear 100k+.
http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14N.html normal mode
http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14N.html Heroic mode
so basically if dps learn to play there classes they will always out dps the tanks once they start getting gear. whereas the tanks will be better untill the dps start getting gear.

---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 01:23 AM ----------

If tanks can do more damage than dps while also performing a critical role, they're the spotlights of the raid.

One could argue that they always were, but with this setup they absolutely are. Everyone else in the raid is just there to help the tank get the job done.

Why should anyone that rolls a character solely for the purpose of doing damage (specializing in damage, one might say... as if it were their role in the raid or something) be happy if, by design, an entirely different role within the raid (one that does not say "focuses on dealing damage to the enemy) is able to equal and exceed their output?

If I'm playing a dps and another dps beats me, that's life. If I'm playing a dps and a tank beats me on a gimmicky fight (such as Alysrazor), that's fine. If a tank beats me on multiple fights because of a gimmick inherent to the role (which is not the same as a gimmick fight), then that's a flaw in the system.

There's a difference between having the best damage and having decent damage. A tank doing 20% of the damage of a dps is not fun for the tank. A tank doing 100%+ of the damage of a dps is illogical and not much fun for the dps. There is room for a compromise in between those extremes.

Edit: For clarity, I don't play WoW atm. This is entirely a theoretical post, based on the assumption that tanks are able to match or exceed the dps of specialists on non-gimmick fights (meaning: fights that don't artificially inflate tank dps through buffs or debuffs that explicitly increase damage, as opposed to inflating tank damage through vengeance). If that's not the case, then this entire discussion is purely theoretical.

There is a reason that most of the top 10 world guilds raid leaders are there tanks. Tanks always needed to be the one that knows everything about the encounter and is always the easiest person to be able to see the whole field. There rotations have never been that hard because there the one in the raid who usually has to watch everything So honestly its always been Tanks are the spotlight of the raid, healers are backbone of the raid, and DPS are the grunts that if they cant do there job are easily replaced. Ive raided top 30 US and watched us go through 10-15 DPS a tier like candy, our 2 tanks were the tanks in the guild since BC and 4 of the healers the same.

[Lightfist]

All these people talking about how tanks need high DPS to have fun fucking disgust me. Go play a fucking DPS spec.

[Gsara]

While I can see the concerns with tank dps in raids, better gear for dps classes will fix the issue. Better gear for prot does not really mean better dps whereas the vast majority of dps classes are in shit gear and have not even begun to scale yet. With that said, I do believe that Blizz will, at some point, cap vengeance if dps in raids does not fix itself with dps getting better gear.(which I think it will)

The biggest issue right now, at least for prot pally, is very poor solo damage while questing/dailies due to basically no vengeance. Sometimes pulling 8-10 mobs at a time just isnt going to happen.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Watch tanks doing 10% more dmg than they are now in t16 and dps doing 50% more. Tank dmg isn't nearly as reliant on gear as it is for dps, better gear will not greatly improve tank damage. Being the only one doing 70k dps on the 1st boss in vault is pretty fun though . (Yes, I made the % numbers up to bring the point of gear scaling, 70k was my dps on the stone guard 2nd highest was our mage at 60k.)

avoidance doesn't give vengeance, mitigation does, avoiding damage completely gives zero out of a zero possible unmitigated,
if you dodge a blow completely naked, it is still zero damage,
only mitigation does(armor, cooldowns, block--)

You are absolutely wrong, blows that are completely avoided still provide full vengeance. The only damage that does NOT factor into vengeance now is overkill damage. You should pay more attention to the current vengeance model before trying to make statements regarding it.

[Gsara]

If tanks can do more damage than dps while also performing a critical role, they're the spotlights of the raid.

One could argue that they always were, but with this setup they absolutely are. Everyone else in the raid is just there to help the tank get the job done.

Why should anyone that rolls a character solely for the purpose of doing damage (specializing in damage, one might say... as if it were their role in the raid or something) be happy if, by design, an entirely different role within the raid (one that does not say "focuses on dealing damage to the enemy) is able to equal and exceed their output?

If I'm playing a dps and another dps beats me, that's life. If I'm playing a dps and a tank beats me on a gimmicky fight (such as Alysrazor), that's fine. If a tank beats me on multiple fights because of a gimmick inherent to the role (which is not the same as a gimmick fight), then that's a flaw in the system.

There's a difference between having the best damage and having decent damage. A tank doing 20% of the damage of a dps is not fun for the tank. A tank doing 100%+ of the damage of a dps is illogical and not much fun for the dps. There is room for a compromise in between those extremes.

Edit: For clarity, I don't play WoW atm. This is entirely a theoretical post, based on the assumption that tanks are able to match or exceed the dps of specialists on non-gimmick fights (meaning: fights that don't artificially inflate tank dps through buffs or debuffs that explicitly increase damage, as opposed to inflating tank damage through vengeance). If that's not the case, then this entire discussion is purely theoretical.

Tanks have always been the "spotlight" of the raid as you put it. If you g an look at some of the most solid guilds in the world, it is always the tanks and healer base that stay constant with dps always interchanging. Not saying dps isnt important because you need solid dps to do high end raiding, but tanks and healers always make or break the raid.

[Irony]

And this is the problem with a lot of players playing DPS. Downing the boss doesn't matter, progressing doesn't matter, numbers that ultimately mean nothing matter. Yes it's a fun way to invoke competition among your raid, but when a Tank starts doing insane dps, it ruins it for everyone? Why? Because you can no longer swing your epeen around and spam the meters due to a mechanic within the games giving tanks rather "broken" damage? Just ignore the Tanks on the meters, and masturbate to your pretty numbers while being in second place.

[Synthaxx]

Blizzard made a mistake with vengeance having no cap in MoP. On several fights tanks are pulling actually bigger numbers than most of dps and it's not an issue of dps' skill.
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu'shan_Vaults/Elegon/25N/dps/ <- out of top 10 dpses on Elegon, 4 are tanks
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu'shan_Vaults/The_Spirit_Kings/25N/dps/ <- out of top 10 dpses on Spirit kings, 6 are tanks. Whole top5 are tanks.
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu'shan_Vaults/Feng_The_Accursed/25N/dps/ <- top 10 dpses on Feng, 9 tanks

In my opinion it's silly. It diminishes fun of playing a dps, seeing tanks doing more damage than you. Do you think blizzard should fix it and put a vengeance cap back on?

The only one out of those "top damage dealers as tanks" that's concerning is Feng the Accursed from player Kayros. The others, if you cared to look, had high peaks but were relatively in check throughout most of the fight.

Also, Spirit Kings 25N lasted 20 seconds apparently; http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-tm...=5921#Rlazgoth
Evidently, that one's been cheated, so the second on the list, a Blood DK, his peak at the start was crazy, but drops like a lead zeppelin.

See. It's easy to just assume when you only look at what you want to see. Until you delve a little deeper, you don't have any real evidence to go on. You know what i did a few nights ago? Mimiron 10 solo. Protection Paladin. I first tried hard mode. I survived for 4:30 MINUTES after enrage went off due to vengeance scaling and my healing scaling with vengeance. Yes, it was epileptic-central visually, but i was surviving. I then did normal mode. First time i wiped due to a screw up. Second time i killed it in about 9 minutes, even when you consider the lack of ranged attacks a protection paladin has.

You know how? Standing in everything possible; Shock blast being the most common, but most importantly, popping up Ardent Defender and standing in the rocket. 520000 AP from vengeance. 220K ability hits, consecration ticking for i think 88K or so. He did one rocket in P2, which i AD'd for, and proceeded to 3-shot the rest of his health. When he did a rocket in P3, AD was popped, i stood in it, then nuked through the 3 pieces in a combination of 6 GCD's.

I then went to try Marrowgar 25 Normal. He hit 3M HP before he enraged. I popped all my cooldowns, survived for the duration, and did 2 million more damage before they dropped off and i died. I did 10 normal at 85 solo after 5.0 was released, so i tried to step it up. It's really lack of gear right now stopping me soloing 25.

I then went to BT and did what was previously impossible for me as a tankadin; Najentus solo. Sure, he doesn't do the spine, but he does still bubble and heal for 300-400K over the duration. I brought in EVERY trash mob from the start of the entrance, and nuked him down to 400K before the first shield, and then finished him off once that dropped off. Having a vengeance cap wouldn't have allowed me to do that.

If i want to solo something from old content, i gather more mobs. Doing this in Cataclysm would have left me dead even with the current tank healing mechanics due to the vengeance cap and my inability to go beyond a specific DPS value. With no cap, it scales linearly and fairly, and it makes it valuable in old content to bring in more mobs.

Since the dawn of WoW, almost every 25-man raid boss has had a super-nuke for tanks. Mimiron had Plasma, Lich King had Soul Reaper, Freya had adds that gained damage as they died, Thorim had unbalancing strike, Iron Council had "rune strike", XT had earthquake, Sindragosa had the frost breath. I could go on. The point is that when bosses do damage designed around the expected gear of the tanks, it's not strange that a mechanic like Vengeance gives DPS a run for their money.

We're on the second week of the expansion and the first week of raids. Gear quality is exceptionally low right now. It's going to take time. I am confident that by the end of this tier, once everyone is geared, DPS will be doing 1.5-2x the DPS of tanks. We need vengeance both for threat, and to feel like we're contributing. Tank TBC damage is something i NEVER want to return.

Don't start screaming bloody murder just yet. It's a gear issue. That's all.

All these people talking about how tanks need high DPS to have fun fucking disgust me. Go play a fucking DPS spec.

I could say something similar about DPS. Specifically for the DPS that spammed meters, cheated them instead of focusing on killing progress bosses, used their class mechanics incorrectly (blinking AWAY from the tank when they overaggro an add they shouldn't have even been attacking), or made the tanks job less fun than it should have been. Sure, there's a million and one great DPS players out there, but there's only a handful who've ever really stood out as exceptional. There's many in the middle, but the ones that are bad tend to ruin the overall impression.

Still, i suppose someone's got to do the job other's wont. If you think you'll enjoy tanking, give it a shot some time. If i think i'd enjoy DPSing, i'd try it. Since i don't, i prefer to stick to tanking.

[Thirtyrock]

If tanks can do more damage than dps while also performing a critical role, they're the spotlights of the raid.

One could argue that they always were, but with this setup they absolutely are. Everyone else in the raid is just there to help the tank get the job done.

Why should anyone that rolls a character solely for the purpose of doing damage (specializing in damage, one might say... as if it were their role in the raid or something) be happy if, by design, an entirely different role within the raid (one that does not say "focuses on dealing damage to the enemy) is able to equal and exceed their output?

If I'm playing a dps and another dps beats me, that's life. If I'm playing a dps and a tank beats me on a gimmicky fight (such as Alysrazor), that's fine. If a tank beats me on multiple fights because of a gimmick inherent to the role (which is not the same as a gimmick fight), then that's a flaw in the system.

There's a difference between having the best damage and having decent damage. A tank doing 20% of the damage of a dps is not fun for the tank. A tank doing 100%+ of the damage of a dps is illogical and not much fun for the dps. There is room for a compromise in between those extremes.

Edit: For clarity, I don't play WoW atm. This is entirely a theoretical post, based on the assumption that tanks are able to match or exceed the dps of specialists on non-gimmick fights (meaning: fights that don't artificially inflate tank dps through buffs or debuffs that explicitly increase damage, as opposed to inflating tank damage through vengeance). If that's not the case, then this entire discussion is purely theoretical.

Look, you guys are missing something crucial.

I'm a tankadin and pulled 2nd dps in our first raid (just a trial run, still had people in 450 avg ilvl gear) on stone guardians.

The mage beat me. If the mage can beat me then later the others will beat me for a simple reason.

As a Tankadin I will be stacking hit and expertise until hard caps 7.5/15% respectively and then stacking mastery. Vengeance is infinite yes, but I won't be stacking crit or *much* haste, instead I'll be stacking mastery. Mastery as a tankadin gives a bit of damage, but mainly it lowers damage taken or increases my self heals. The dps will be stacking their damage increasing stats. I will never do more damage than I am now, except that bosses will deal more damage. But in this tier... with the bosses set... No, I'm capped. I won't get any better, or if i do, it will only be a little and due to mastery. Whereas DPS will be doing much much more damage as the tier increases. So, for now, the mage is beating me. Later the other 4 dps in our 10 man will be beating me as they A: get gear and B: get used to the fights.

Tanks always do higher damage at the beginning of a raid tier than at the end in comparison the the rest of the raid.

This is not a problem which will be ongoing. Get over it for a few weeks, make sure you're nailing your rotation and get gear, you'll be back on top in no time and I'll be at the bottom. Right now it's fun, but it won't last.

[Constraint]

[/COLOR]

Tanks always do higher damage at the beginning of a raid tier than at the end in comparison the the rest of the raid.

They do..? Since when? They didn't in Vanilla. They didn't in BC. They didn't in WotLK. They didn't in Cata. Please elaborate.

[Ryan Cailan Ebonheart]

The only reason Vengeance is in this game is for tanks to carry 5 man dungeons if the dps players are bad. Its also in the game to carry bad tanks who couldn't keep aggro before it existed.

Tank DPS is working as intended.

[Thirtyrock]

How is that even slightly relevant? When people "do as much damage to the correct targets as possible" in a DAMAGE DEALING role, their job is still to 'whore the meters' and put out the most damage possible. Or do you encourage your dpsers to take it easy, not worry about how much damage they're putting out - it's not that important after all?

And how will tank damage go down..? Tanks will have far greater health pools, and far greater mitigation, therefore in order to challenge survivability, boss unmitigated damage will have to increase exponentially. This in turn gives FAR greater vengeance. Please think ahead before posting, my friends.

Ok, your first point: No, he said do as much damage as possible, to the correct target. He didn't say "take it easy." What he also said, that you and everyone in this thread who agrees with you doesn't seem to understand is that Your damage doesn't go down when a tank's damage goes up. If you are doing your maximum possible damage, doing everything exactly right, popping everything at the right time, etc. You are doing your job. Now, if I, as a tank, right this second, am doing more damage does that make you do less damage? No, it's not zero-sum.

Second, Tank damage will not go up at the same rate as DPS. It's a scaling issue. My dps is at it's max right now at the beginning of a tier since i'm hit capped and almost exp hard capped. The bosses this tier won't increase their damage output so my damage won't go up.

Yours will. If some dps are already beating tanks this means....gasp....more dps will beat tanks later.

Please read other's posts and think about them before posting my friend.

Edited because I realized more of your stupidity, and more of you not reading the thread.

vengeance is no longer, in any way, affected by gear. at all. I can avoid 100% of attacks or 0% of attacks and I will get the same vengeance. I can have 10m health or 10 and I will get the same vengeance from the attacks and that is 2% of physical damage. period, end of story. This is why tank damage will go up each tier and each jump into heroics but not during the tier itself. I'm doing my maximum possible damage the moment i am hit and expertise capped.

[Eike]

dps is a filler role, accept the reality.

[Thirtyrock]

dps is a filler role, accept the reality.

You're not helping.