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  1. #101
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sephrie View Post
    Blizzard made a mistake with vengeance having no cap in MoP. On several fights tanks are pulling actually bigger numbers than most of dps and it's not an issue of dps' skill.
    Number one, I like it because levelling as a tank is feasable.
    Number two, I believe you when I see raids attempting bosses with 6 healers and 19 tanks.....
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  2. #102
    you are complaining about your raid getting free dps?
    you are a team, you know?
    better raid dps is a huge favor.
    No, Kanrethad is not too hard.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Well I guess than it would be fine as well for every dd using his damage gear to tank just as well as somebody who puts thought into gearing appropriately to avoid as much damage as possible. Or for any healer. I am aware that there are games that work that way out there but I consider them even worse balanced shitfests than this here.
    But well I'll see how it scales.
    But, for a tank to be effective as a tank, they need to still take as little damage as possible. One of the reasons that I'm expertise and hit capped is that Theck, over at Sacred Duty, has shown that this will smooth out my damage intake, causing me to take as few spikes as possible.
    Other tanks have different ways of getting this result.
    No tank will be effective in pure dps gear, at least early on in the tier.

  4. #104
    Wait, OP complains of extra damage of his raid and want raid damage to become lower? I thought every player in raid work for raid's benefit, not the opposite. You seems like some shitty PuGgie with bruised ego who I honestly wouldn't want in my raid.

  5. #105
    No I agree. Tank damage is stupid atm. The Wrath system worked better where the tank would do a lot less damage than the dps yet still held all the aggro they would ever need just based off threat generated from their abilities. Nowadays it's like...why roll a dps when you can top the damage meters and have more survivability. Hell, tank specs are even superior for leveling, and even though they were great for leveling in Wrath, you were sacrificing doing higher dps for more survivability so you could pull more mobs more often while leveling. Now it's just like...lemme pull anything and everything I can and do 300k aoe and call it a day.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 06:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Number one, I like it because levelling as a tank is feasable.
    Number two, I believe you when I see raids attempting bosses with 6 healers and 19 tanks.....
    Leveling as a tank has always been feasible. Now it's the ONLY way you should be leveling if you wanna level fast.

    We all very well are aware that's not possible since the most of the tank damage comes from non-capped vengeance. If you had 19 tanks, only 1 or two of them would do OP dps while the other would suck balls.

  6. #106
    Bloodsail Admiral Vayshan's Avatar
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    Is this seriously a QQ thread about where someone in a >>>>> RAID <<<<< (also known versus a BOSS) does too much damage? Or is this a "I'm a dps and I'm jealous of the tank beating me on recount" thread? Jeez... OP, be glad atleast someone in your raid is pulling high numbers...

    Quote Originally Posted by CapricaCenarius View Post
    ah the salty, bitter, butthurt tears of "me,me,me!"

    its a good thing the goal of a raid encounter isn't to work as a group and defeat the boss, rather than mash buttons so you can troll post meters in /1 regardless of the outcome of the fight.

    I'd LOVE to be in a guild raid with some asshat who cares more about their meters than us downing a boss.
    Quote Originally Posted by casually View Post
    who cares honestly.. if a tank is helping out that much good for him.. thats more dps added to a faster kill.. only a fucktard would complain and want that nerfed.. faster kills= faster loot.
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    Wait, OP complains of extra damage of his raid and want raid damage to become lower? I thought every player in raid work for raid's benefit, not the opposite. You seems like some shitty PuGgie with bruised ego who I honestly wouldn't want in my raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ympetn View Post
    you are complaining about your raid getting free dps?
    you are a team, you know?
    better raid dps is a huge favor.
    Quoting for truth. OP, please do your guild a favor and stop raiding.
    Last edited by Vayshan; 2012-10-07 at 01:58 PM.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    No I agree. Tank damage is stupid atm. The Wrath system worked better where the tank would do a lot less damage than the dps yet still held all the aggro they would ever need just based off threat generated from their abilities. Nowadays it's like...why roll a dps when you can top the damage meters and have more survivability. Hell, tank specs are even superior for leveling, and even though they were great for leveling in Wrath, you were sacrificing doing higher dps for more survivability so you could pull more mobs more often while leveling. Now it's just like...lemme pull anything and everything I can and do 300k aoe and call it a day.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 06:42 AM ----------



    Leveling as a tank has always been feasible. Now it's the ONLY way you should be leveling if you wanna level fast.

    We all very well are aware that's not possible since the most of the tank damage comes from non-capped vengeance. If you had 19 tanks, only 1 or two of them would do OP dps while the other would suck balls.
    Your first point: In wrath, near the end of the expansion, dps were pulling ahead of tanks, even if played perfectly which is why vengeance came in.
    Your point about leveling: Did you try to level prot through 85-90. It is PAINFULLY slow, I know, I did it. At 90, in full heroic gear, on 1 lvl 90 mob in the world I do a grand total of...15k dps. On 10 lvl 90 mobs out in the world I do 40k (you'll notice that it's not 10x as much because they don't hit for much in the world)
    It takes forever to kill anything as a tank from 85-90 and I, who have historically leveled my alts in their tank specs, will not be doing so this time around. It may still be the way to level through dungeons, but it is NOT the way to level from 85-90.

  8. #108
    Everyone saying that it's fine for your tank do do huge DPS in a raid because you are part of a team needs to think of the bigger picture.

    Some DPS are seeing the very small picture (recount).

    What some raiders are seeing is "oh we get free DPS to kill this boss with, great"

    What they are failing to see is this is potentially coming at the cost of tank survivability. The big problem comes if it becomes accepted that tanks are going to contribute a large percentage of your raid's damage. Then we will see enrage timers based around this. This will mean that tanks will then be required to pull as much DPS as possible, and we will see raid encounters where tanks aren't able to focus on defense as much.
    And they will go down like a sack of spuds.

    If tanks being top DPS becomes a thing you are going to have to bomb the tank with huge heals in later content. Constantly.

    There is no such thing as free DPS in raids. If damage potential is there, that's where your enrage timers come from.
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2012-10-07 at 02:03 PM.

  9. #109
    Bloodsail Admiral Vayshan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Everyone saying that it's fine for your tank do do huge DPS in a raid because you are part of a team needs to think of the bigger picture.

    Some DPS are seeing the very small picture (recount).

    What some raiders are seeing is "oh we get free DPS to kill this boss with, great"

    What they are failing to see is this is potentially coming at the cost of tank survivability. The big problem comes if it becomes accepted that tanks are going to contribute a large percentage of your raid's damage. Then we will see enrage timers based around this. This will mean that tanks will then be required to pull as much DPS as possible, and we will see raid encounters where tanks aren't able to focus on defense as much.
    And they will go down like a sack of spuds.

    If tanks being top DPS becomes a thing you are going to have to bomb the tank with huge heals in later content. Constantly.

    There is no such thing as free DPS in raids. If damage potential is there, that's where your enrage timers come from.
    What you fail to see is that no tank is tanking in dps gear here. It's a mechanic that does NOT come at the cost of survivability. You understand mechanic don't you? It means it's supposed to be that way, it rolls like that, it works like that.

  10. #110
    The Lightbringer
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    The only issue I see here is that tanks have rarely been dishing out there maximum dps because the group was never penalized because the tank lacked a 2k extra dps output. If Blizzard is now truly balancing around tanks topping the meters then the raid as a whole will be penalized by a huge margin if the tank fucks up his rotation or doesn't abuse vengeance for extra attack power.
    As an example my raid leader throughout Cataclysm never chose to play feral dps (only feral tank), because he knew that he couldn't do optimal dps as feral dps and still lead the raid. Instead he may have been dealing 500-800 less dps as a tank, but still managed to lead the raid.

  11. #111
    If you're losing out to your tank then either you are bad or your tank is bad at using AM or gearing. Pure and simple.

    Keep crying about tank DPS though, even though I can only pull 30k a fight it's pretty rewarding to see 15% of raid healing being done by Battle Healer, SoI and Blessed Hammer. Hope Blizz don't catch onto that.
    Last edited by Farabee; 2012-10-07 at 02:25 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Vayshan View Post
    What you fail to see is that no tank is tanking in dps gear here. It's a mechanic that does NOT come at the cost of survivability. You understand mechanic don't you? It means it's supposed to be that way, it rolls like that, it works like that.
    Yes. It does come at the cost of survivability in some cases, as resources will be spent on damaging abilities instead of defensive ones in order to do more damage.

    As detailed in the extensive active mitigation posts.
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2012-10-07 at 02:37 PM.

  13. #113
    I don't think that tank DPS is too high or that DPS of damage classes is too low. I think it's a scaling problem. As a tank it's nice to have vengeance so that I can do a good amount of damage while leveling, farming, in dungeons, scenarios and raids. Doing some damage as a tank just feels right and shouldn't be changed. On the other hand as a DPS I do in most cases more damage in comparison to a tank but it doesn't feel right. I have to min/max so much and have close to no space to customize the stats to my playstyle without sacrificing too much DPS.

    I know Blizzard itemized loot different this time so that rating wouldn't go nuts by the end of the expansion but it feels like they didn't do a good job by adjusting the DPS specs to the new itemization. Tank and heal feel good in my opinion but DPS feels broken.

  14. #114
    People care way to much about their damage. Who cares as long as the boss goes down and everyone gets loot right ?

  15. #115
    Personally I don't care if the tanks dps is too high. Why should I as a dps? If I'm doing my job and they have high dps that just means the group for heroics or the raid we are in is doing better.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post

    Leveling as a tank has always been feasible. Now it's the ONLY way you should be leveling if you wanna level fast.
    Complete rubbish.

    The only way to level fast as a tank is if you can attract enough mobs to take truckloads of damage so that vengeance can work for you. This is rarely possible. If mobs aren't tagged already then when you collect them you will have to run so far away from their spawn point that they will evade.

  17. #117
    yes it's good that someone's doing good dps, yes it's good that the boss is downed but the feeling of being a dps that does less damage than someone who ISN'T a dps, that feeling is not good. Why does the enrage timer have to be balanced around huge tank dps? And if that's the case, why not give healers high dps while healing at the same time? Or why not let DPS players be able to tank the boss? As long as the boss is dead before he enrages and kills everything, all is good right?

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    Leveling as a tank has always been feasible. Now it's the ONLY way you should be leveling if you wanna level fast.
    I would very well ask you to go level same paladin as tank.

    Is it nice to see 6 digits numbers in raids from damaging abilities? As tank, I personally don't care, I care more that boss/mobs which I fight, would be on me, and care to help healers by reducing damage I take.

    But people care when they see same 600k HP mobs in their daily quests, and there is no vengeance, simply because you can't go and aoe them all out. Go try it, when there is like queue for those mobs, or mobs spreaded out too much. Even then if to assume you managed to get lots of mobs on you, to keep 13k AP buff, you need to take so much damage, that it won't be healable through your own defensive abilities And it's only at 13k+ when you start seeing really bearable numbers.

    Don't forget than in TBC lv 69-70 mobs had 5-6k health, and 5-men geared tank's single target dps was around 300-400, and it was considered as very slow killing speed and nigh impossible to properly farm anything. Now compare it with 15k dps against 600k HP mobs in MoP. And it is around 15k (at least for tankadins) without all those AoE (which barely adds without vengeance) and without vengeance.

    So, as I posted earlier, Vengeance must go, overall dps to be buffed to around 40k at around ilvl 465-470 and tanks' damage output to be made scalable with their gear.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Farabee View Post
    If you're losing out to your tank then either you are bad or your tank is bad at using AM or gearing. Pure and simple.

    Keep crying about tank DPS though, even though I can only pull 30k a fight it's pretty rewarding to see 15% of raid healing being done by Battle Healer, SoI and Blessed Hammer. Hope Blizz don't catch onto that.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/1xno5...?s=7677&e=8044

    That's me on our first night in MSV. On this fight, our best attempt, I was 2nd on damage, 4th on heals. As far as heals taken 58% of them were from me, meaning I did massive dps and saved the healers a ton of damage.

    Now, I got beat by a dps, because he was full 463 and is good. The rest will catch up as they get better gear/get better at the fights. Our AM does damage as well as lowering intake (you're a paladin too i see)

    If you're only pulling 30k in raids you're the one doing something wrong.
    Edit: This is, as I pointed out, in raids. If you are getting beat as a tank in 5 mans that's pretty normal. But, for now, tanks are at or near the top in raids.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 05:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    I would very well ask you to go level same paladin as tank.

    Is it nice to see 6 digits numbers in raids from damaging abilities? As tank, I personally don't care, I care more that boss/mobs which I fight, would be on me, and care to help healers by reducing damage I take.

    But people care when they see same 600k HP mobs in their daily quests, and there is no vengeance, simply because you can't go and aoe them all out. Go try it, when there is like queue for those mobs, or mobs spreaded out too much. Even then if to assume you managed to get lots of mobs on you, to keep 13k AP buff, you need to take so much damage, that it won't be healable through your own defensive abilities And it's only at 13k+ when you start seeing really bearable numbers.

    Don't forget than in TBC lv 69-70 mobs had 5-6k health, and 5-men geared tank's single target dps was around 300-400, and it was considered as very slow killing speed and nigh impossible to properly farm anything. Now compare it with 15k dps against 600k HP mobs in MoP. And it is around 15k (at least for tankadins) without all those AoE (which barely adds without vengeance) and without vengeance.

    So, as I posted earlier, Vengeance must go, overall dps to be buffed to around 40k at around ilvl 465-470 and tanks' damage output to be made scalable with their gear.
    Oh my god this!!!!!

    It takes me 4-5x as long to do my dailies because:
    1: If someone tries to gank me I don't gain vengeance, to terrible damage and get killed. This takes several minutes to happen, but it happens, There's not much I can do as a tankadin after about 2 minutes, because my cds are down and I can't do crap for damage. (note--I sometimes win, but pure, especially caster, dps normally beats me in world pvp, maybe i'm bad)
    2: I can't do high damage, in 463 avg ilvl i pull 15k single target out in the world, so it takes me 3x as long as a dps to kill one thing.
    3: I can't gather things up because there are a lot of people doing dailies (on a high pop server). This means that I can't even take advantage of the one big advantage a tank has, survivability.

    Now, I still do it because I HATE ret.

    But, look at these same 3 issues as far as leveling goes and you'll see why it takes much longer to level protadin these days than ret, especially from 85-90 where the dungeons give crap exp. I'm on a pvp realm, so, some horde sees 10 mobs gathered up and an 87 tank (my alt paladin, yes i have a problem) I'm doing crap for damage, and they come at me.

    Then I go and try to just kill one, after ressing. Since it still takes me 45 seconds to kill 1 mob another horde comes along and ganks me.

    I've tried 2 approaches and neither gave me exp because I got killed. Now this doesn't happen all the time, but often enough that I'm considering going Ret on my alts, despite my deep and abiding hatred of the spec.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 05:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by OscaR View Post
    yes it's good that someone's doing good dps, yes it's good that the boss is downed but the feeling of being a dps that does less damage than someone who ISN'T a dps, that feeling is not good. Why does the enrage timer have to be balanced around huge tank dps? And if that's the case, why not give healers high dps while healing at the same time? Or why not let DPS players be able to tank the boss? As long as the boss is dead before he enrages and kills everything, all is good right?
    I agree that if long term tank damage was higher than dps damage it would be a problem, but, as I and other's have stated time and again in this thread, once dps gear up they will start to outdamage tanks. Our damage scales with boss damage, not with gear, so, we are already at our theoretical maximum for this raid (this changes from normal to heroic, but, in each case, tanks are at their max).

    DPS damage, on the other hand, is at it's lowest point during this tier. Ours will stay the same, only going up as new, harder hitting bosses come along. Yours will go up every time you get a piece of gear.

    Wait for it to happen, don't freak out now. Get some purples, hell, get 463 and do your rotation perfectly. Look at the mage in my guild, already beating me by a good bit, and only 463 ilvl.
    Last edited by Thirtyrock; 2012-10-07 at 05:15 PM. Reason: Raids vs Heroics

  20. #120
    Yes, cool, my raid is getting bonus dps. But the fights are tuned about tanks doing such dps, with nerfing tanks' dps there would obviously a tunedown of boss' dmg or a boost to dps' total damage. This is about balance, it's like mages did 200k dps while the rest did 100k and every person that complains about it would be "whiner" and "non-teamplayer" because they don't appreciate the bonus raid dps.

    OP, please do your guild a favor and stop raiding.
    Ekhm, do I know you?

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