Tanks' DPS is WAYYY too high.

[Appletini]

Should probably compare yourself to others in your niche rather than comparing yourself to tanks. Even on the DPS scales.

[Cirque]

Alysrazor would like a word with you about tank dps. Specific fight mechanics are still specific fight mechanics.
But if its everywhere on all fights, then that is a problem because the arguement becomes why make a dps when tanks have the same (or better dps) and the survivability of tanks.

That's one fight. Now it's an entire mechanic that will work on any encounter as long as the requirements for a lot of vengeance are met. That's quite a difference. Nobody minds gimmick fights, but people mind gimmick abilities that make a class do something they're not supposed to - in this case, tanks doing insane damage.

Of course this has been an issue ever since, at least at low levels, and it has now transferred to max level. I understand the reason of vengeance's existance, I just don't think it's the right solution and even if it would be, that it's implemented in the correct way. There's different ways to make vengeance scale without letting it have no cap.

[Raintola]

The second is "do as much damage to the correct targets as possible", that job isn't in any way effected by how much damage your tank does.

In the current game, there's rarely a moment when the correct targets aren't all the available targets.

[Thirtyrock]

I don't know if paladin mit is that much different than warriors, but why exactly are you bothering with hit/exp? It's not needed. Granted if I want to be able to use my mit AND HS spam sure I could see it being needed but with .52% hit and something like 1-2% expertise (can't get either of them lower) I'm still able to hit mit cd's on a regular basis...

It has to do with holy power generation and damage smoothing, if you're interested go to sacredduty.net and check out Theck's work there.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 02:50 AM ----------

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/
Tanks are already doing as much as what dps would be doing in full epic normal mode gear. Guess what bosses do in hard modes they do more dmg which means tanks will do even more dps.

The biggest issue with this is that fact that to get even more dps tanks will try to take more and more dmg the new vengeance promotes bad game play and rewards tanks for standing in the fire.

As far as doing as much dps as a dps player in full normal epics...I'm getting beat by our mage in 463s, so...I think it'll work itself out, but I could be wrong, I guess i'll have to wait and see on this one.

This, the standing in fire issue, won't be a problem as long as healers are going oom, and if it works for your guild then it works, I know that I won't stand in fire because that will prevent us from getting kills since my healers are running oom as it is keeping the raid up. And that's with me pulling around 30-40k hps as the tank.

[Windry]

Simple Answer: Ghost Crawler switch mains from a mage to a tank... hahaha, I'm just kidding... or am I? O.o

[Dasani]

I think it's funny things like "this" are considered issues by some.

Your DPS and/or how good you are as a DPS is in no way related to how much damage your tank does. The fact you want tanks to hit less is just your pride and e-peen being hurt because you want to be number one and you can't, which is childish. Quality of life has been improved in both dungeons and raids since the vengeance change. Aside from people with e-peen issues, things have been better overall with the vengeance change.

[alturic]

It has to do with holy power generation and damage smoothing, if you're interested go to sacredduty.net and check out Theck's work there.

That's what I'm saying though. I didn't know how HP generation was in terms of say 1HP = 20 rage therefore having 3HP = 60 rage (shield block) but I'm definitely still able to use shield block or 60 rage shield barrier quite frequently... at least frequently enough for my healers to say that going hit/exp capped didn't feel any different in terms of healing needed.

[(Insert Name Here)]

I dont understand what is so hard to make a vengeance cap that scales with the tank's iLvl...

[wow]

Except standing in fire won't increase your vengeance stack only getting hit smack in the face by the boss will.

But outside the encounters with special tanking mechanics or just bosses that hits like a truck, our dps classes are already doing more dps than tanks are, i fail to see the problem.

Standing in a the fire just means getting hit by things you'd normally try and avoid all together. If its just "encounters with special tanking mechanics" why are tanks all in the top 10 or number 1 in of every fight in Mogu'shan Vaults on wol 25m?

[Playintrafic]

All these people talking about how tanks need high DPS to have fun fucking disgust me. Go play a fucking DPS spec.

I had fun before I kicked your ass at meters. Its cool now that I do, it won't last. Get gear and l2p. Tank damage wont scale with gear nearly as much. We could go back to the old days where you can only do as dps as my threat will allow. But those days are behind us, and stupid dps are the reason.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 04:48 AM ----------

[/COLOR]

They do..? Since when? They didn't in Vanilla. They didn't in BC. They didn't in WotLK. They didn't in Cata. Please elaborate.

Yes they did, yes they did, yes they did, yes they did.

Tank DPS doesnt scale with gear nearly as well as DPS dps. DPS Specs get MUCH more damage with better gear. Tanks a little more damage with better gear. They DPS players' damage scales much better with gear.

DPS player gets new gear his dps goes from 1.5 to 2.0

Tank gets new gear his dps goes from 1.7 to 1.8 and his defense goes from 1.7 to 2.0. Numbers have been simplified.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 04:49 AM ----------

Its also in the game to carry bad tanks who couldn't keep aggro before it existed.

You mean to carry bad DPS would didn't understand how aggro worked, pulled too much threat on a target, and then died and then they bitched about. Never bothering to download omen threat meter.

[pimpeddakota]

I dont understand what is so hard to make a vengeance cap that scales with the tank's iLvl...

because why cap tank dps? If your a dps just compare yourself with other dps'ers. I wonder if people would be screaming nerf if a disc priest was able to do well on dps while healing....

[whoranzone]

its not a problem. Its the bad players who are complaining cause "they" cannot outdps the tank. I fully expect when we start raiding next week all the DPS in my raid will out dps me and I had world #1 ultraxion 10 heroic World #2 morchok 10 heroic and World #5 Warlord 10 heroic Prot Paladin back at 15% before we stopped farming mounts for the tier.

So each of those guilds with rankings on wol is full of bads. Yeah sounds quite legit.

because why cap tank dps? If your a dps just compare yourself with other dps'ers. I wonder if people would be screaming nerf if a disc priest was able to do well on dps while healing....

While you are at it change dps to heal as much as a full healer and be able to take damage like a tank.

[Kouki]

Does anyone else think if the tank out dps you that your dps might be the problem?

[Sephrie]

Does anyone else think if the tank out dps you that your dps might be the problem?

Yes, every dps on the earth is bad because tanks are topping world parses.

Vengeance should now ramp up more quickly. Avoidance will now grant Vengeance based on the average damage of the avoided NPC auto-attack, instead of just refreshing existing Vengeance. This does not apply to enemy special attacks.

The hell, does that mean tanks will have even more dps? And what does the avoidance change mean in reality?

[Jervaise]

Why does another role doing high damage dimish your worth? Does it make your epeen shrivel?

The biggest gripe amongst amongst tanks to the end of the last expansion was that they were just thick skinned idiots that got hit in the face so that the "important" people could do their jobs. Noone wanted to tank because of this, little fun, little reward and relatively high responsbility (compared to damage dealers). Now suddenly tanks are doing damage that matters, healing that matters and they can mitigate the damage they take in a way that matters. Tanking is suddenly a very fun and rewarding role. I hope that gear scaling makes damage dealers deal a higher percentage of damage but I hope that which tanks deal stays meaningful.

I don't get why you are converting the conversation to that POV.

If tanks did more healing than healers, then it would mean that healers are being ripped off of their role. If DD could tank any encounter, it would be the same. If tanks deal more damage than DD, then there again is a role stealing there.

There are roles in this game for a reason, it feels weird and buggy atm.

[Omertocracy]

As a Blood DK, I agree that Tank DPS is retardiculous. Did Galleon tonight. I facetanked the main event, ended with 93k dps. Second on the list was another tank at 75k. The top DPS was in third, with 56k. Tank shouldn't be nearly double the DPS.

[Sephrie]

I don't get why you are converting the conversation to that POV.

If tanks did more healing than healers, then it would mean that healers are being ripped off of their role. If DD could tank any encounter, it would be the same. If tanks deal more damage than DD, then there again is a role stealing there.

There are roles in this game for a reason, it feels weird and buggy atm.

Exactly, that's what I've been saying all along. You all haters should really think about it, it's not an epeen or ego issue. The whole thing just feels weird and the balance is "shaken".

[Woceip]

If you're not outdps'ing your tank, you are either doing something wrong, or it's a gimick fight. Not having bothered to gear up counts as doing something wrong. Move on.

[Sephrie]

If you're not outdps'ing your tank, you are either doing something wrong, or it's a gimick fight. Not having bothered to gear up counts as doing something wrong. Move on.

So how come tanks are dominating half of the 25 fights' parse rankings of the current content? Every DPS in the world is bad?

[Underskilled]

I think it's funny things like "this" are considered issues by some.

Your DPS and/or how good you are as a DPS is in no way related to how much damage your tank does. The fact you want tanks to hit less is just your pride and e-peen being hurt because you want to be number one and you can't, which is childish. Quality of life has been improved in both dungeons and raids since the vengeance change. Aside from people with e-peen issues, things have been better overall with the vengeance change.

If I had to guess, people are upset because roles are very specific in this game. The tank will be keeping the boss on them, the healer will heal people, and the dps will do the damage. Now that tanks are preforming both their role, and the dps role, it may not seem fair to dps, as if they're being cheated out of their role by something they can't control.

I also wouldn't be surprised if it was a pride thing either. I play with some dps, that play dps for the sake of doing those crazy numbers, and ranking in the logs, who are now pretty unhappy all their work and dedication is being tossed aside by tanks matching, and sometimes surpassing them.