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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    Most are wandering why they start "broken" to begin with...with a smaller cap on vengeance the problem is fixed for the most part.
    Except there is no problem except ego's being hurt. In 2 weeks, or less, dps will be outdoing tanks in raids. our dps who are in 463 gear completely are already doing so.

    The game isn't unplayable.

    If anything we need vengeance of some form back in pvp. As a paladin tank I can get destroyed by any ranged dps in world pvp (which I know doesn't matter to overall balance but it is infuriating to not be able to do anything, anything at all, to a ranged dps) I can't close for more than about 5 secs at a time, I can't heal for shit because my heals scale off vengeance, I can't do damage because my damage scales off vengeance.

    Tanks doing high damage in raids is a problem that will sort itself out and only people who are selfishly watching meters instead of caring about their guild's progression as a whole give 2 shits about this issue.

  2. #142
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    I don't really understand how this is a problem or how it diminishes anyone else's role. It's not like you can bring 8 tanks and all of them are going to out-DPS the DPS. Just the ones repeatedly getting smashed in the face. That doesn't in any way diminish the DPS of DPS classes. At all. S/he knows s/he is doing that damage because of that mechanic and it's part of their role, you know that, so how does that diminish your DPS? Compare yourself to the other DPS classes, not the tank.

    As others have said it's further a non-issue because it's really just a result of scaling. In a couple weeks it will sort itself out as DPS catches up. There is really nothing at all to complain about and your fun shouldn't be ruined over it. Take pride in your ability to play well, don't get emo because a tank mechanic currently scales really well. It's helping your raid, not hurting it. Be happy for your raid.

  3. #143
    Deleted
    Blizzard poked the bear, when they wanted to change the way threat works and implemented Vengeance. I don't think we've seen the last changes at all, so for now we can just wait and see, what happens.

    A few things I'd like to remind you of though:

    1. In a dungeon with people who just made the required ilvl, having a tank able to do double the dmg the lowest dps do, is what makes the bosses die.

    2. Raiding new content with shit gear or poorly itemized gear, tanks dps helps with progression. Had it not been for tank dmg, we wouldn't have killed some of the bosses before the enrage timer.

    The way it is right now, high tank dps is a huge plus to down bosses. And even though I can understand the argument made by dps classes, I'd think that your overall goal is to down bosses and progress. Sure, the dps classes should have been topping the dmg, but as I already said, I think we'll see more changes.

    But Vengeance is going to be hard to adjust, since they changed tanking classes like Bears completely and gave Threat an overhaul as well. I'd mush rather prefer the unbalanced tank dmg, than having to deal with major threat issues - until they fix it.

  4. #144
    I don't see the issue.

    The main tank is doing as much dps as a dps. What's the problem? Other tanks won't bring as much dps.
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  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    Look, you guys are missing something crucial.

    I'm a tankadin and pulled 2nd dps in our first raid (just a trial run, still had people in 450 avg ilvl gear) on stone guardians.

    The mage beat me. If the mage can beat me then later the others will beat me for a simple reason.

    As a Tankadin I will be stacking hit and expertise until hard caps 7.5/15% respectively and then stacking mastery. Vengeance is infinite yes, but I won't be stacking crit or *much* haste, instead I'll be stacking mastery. Mastery as a tankadin gives a bit of damage, but mainly it lowers damage taken or increases my self heals. The dps will be stacking their damage increasing stats. I will never do more damage than I am now, except that bosses will deal more damage. But in this tier... with the bosses set... No, I'm capped. I won't get any better, or if i do, it will only be a little and due to mastery. Whereas DPS will be doing much much more damage as the tier increases. So, for now, the mage is beating me. Later the other 4 dps in our 10 man will be beating me as they A: get gear and B: get used to the fights.

    Tanks always do higher damage at the beginning of a raid tier than at the end in comparison the the rest of the raid.

    This is not a problem which will be ongoing. Get over it for a few weeks, make sure you're nailing your rotation and get gear, you'll be back on top in no time and I'll be at the bottom. Right now it's fun, but it won't last.
    I don't know if paladin mit is that much different than warriors, but why exactly are you bothering with hit/exp? It's not needed. Granted if I want to be able to use my mit AND HS spam sure I could see it being needed but with .52% hit and something like 1-2% expertise (can't get either of them lower) I'm still able to hit mit cd's on a regular basis...

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    I don't know if paladin mit is that much different than warriors, but why exactly are you bothering with hit/exp? It's not needed. Granted if I want to be able to use my mit AND HS spam sure I could see it being needed but with .52% hit and something like 1-2% expertise (can't get either of them lower) I'm still able to hit mit cd's on a regular basis...
    With hit and expertise cap you are hitting ShoR about every 7 seconds, as opposed to on average around every 8-9 seconds (if not rather longer), which is about 20-30% higher uptime of a 50-60% physical damage reduction.

    So yeah, paladins NEED hit cap and at least expertise soft-cap.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    I don't know if paladin mit is that much different than warriors, but why exactly are you bothering with hit/exp? It's not needed. Granted if I want to be able to use my mit AND HS spam sure I could see it being needed but with .52% hit and something like 1-2% expertise (can't get either of them lower) I'm still able to hit mit cd's on a regular basis...

    Hit and expertise cap is the biggest mitigation buff statwise for a paladin, see sacredduty for the maths.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keske View Post
    The problem here is that it isn't though. First of all it should never ever happen. since if your dps is so bad that it can't outdps a tank you shouldn't be able to ever down a boss. Secondly, this is taking into account everyone that uses world of logs wich includes some of the best players in the world, and tanks are still dominating fights without gimmicks.
    (snip)
    Sorry for late reply.

    Also sorry, I should've been more specific.
    What I meant about "it can be l2p issue" was not "best players need to l2p".
    I meant more about heroics/lfr where there are not sometimes not that great players who do very low dps, making tank dps seem "ludicrous" etc.

    Tho my point still stands. Tanks have higher base damage but bad scaling, usually. Some other specs and classes have this too.
    These are usually the ones topping meters at start of expansion..vengeance also helps them quite bit.
    Once low base dmg+good scaling specs/classes get some good gear, they should get above tanks easily. If they dont, it needs to be balanced. I dont see why they should balance dps to blues+some normal epics when they havent done that in past either. But *shrug*

    Also normal start-tier bosses have never been huge dps checks anyway.
    Last edited by mmocd6ad878d9b; 2012-10-09 at 12:42 AM.

  9. #149
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    For the longest time it was incredibly hard just to find a tank. Now they have made them more fun to play and you want to diminish that?

  10. #150
    Deleted
    how is this a problem, they do higher damage so that they can hold aggro from dpsers doing 100k dps - just judge the dps from the first after the tanks - simple

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    Except there is no problem except ego's being hurt. In 2 weeks, or less, dps will be outdoing tanks in raids. our dps who are in 463 gear completely are already doing so.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/
    Tanks are already doing as much as what dps would be doing in full epic normal mode gear. Guess what bosses do in hard modes they do more dmg which means tanks will do even more dps.

    The biggest issue with this is that fact that to get even more dps tanks will try to take more and more dmg the new vengeance promotes bad game play and rewards tanks for standing in the fire.
    Last edited by Wow; 2012-10-09 at 12:54 AM.

  12. #152
    it's a number. as long as the boss goes down, who the hell cares if tanks are top5

  13. #153
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    From my experience (as a druid tank) this happened at the start of every single other expansion. DPS scale better than tanks when it comes to dps thats just life in WoW

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/
    Tanks are already doing as much as what dps would be doing in full epic normal mode gear. Guess what bosses do in hard modes they do more dmg which means tanks will do even more dps.

    The biggest issue with this is that fact that to get even more dps tanks will try to take more and more dmg the new vengeance promotes bad game play and rewards tanks for standing in the fire.
    Tanks are doing as much damage as dps in full epic normal mode gear when two out of three normal mode raids aren't even out yet. Right.

  15. #155
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/
    Tanks are already doing as much as what dps would be doing in full epic normal mode gear. Guess what bosses do in hard modes they do more dmg which means tanks will do even more dps.

    The biggest issue with this is that fact that to get even more dps tanks will try to take more and more dmg the new vengeance promotes bad game play and rewards tanks for standing in the fire.
    Except standing in fire won't increase your vengeance stack only getting hit smack in the face by the boss will.

    But outside the encounters with special tanking mechanics or just bosses that hits like a truck, our dps classes are already doing more dps than tanks are, i fail to see the problem.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Evory View Post
    Except standing in fire won't increase your vengeance stack only getting hit smack in the face by the boss will.

    But outside the encounters with special tanking mechanics or just bosses that hits like a truck, our dps classes are already doing more dps than tanks are, i fail to see the problem.
    its not a problem. Its the bad players who are complaining cause "they" cannot outdps the tank. I fully expect when we start raiding next week all the DPS in my raid will out dps me and I had world #1 ultraxion 10 heroic World #2 morchok 10 heroic and World #5 Warlord 10 heroic Prot Paladin back at 15% before we stopped farming mounts for the tier.

  17. #157
    Should probably compare yourself to others in your niche rather than comparing yourself to tanks. Even on the DPS scales.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Alysrazor would like a word with you about tank dps. Specific fight mechanics are still specific fight mechanics.
    But if its everywhere on all fights, then that is a problem because the arguement becomes why make a dps when tanks have the same (or better dps) and the survivability of tanks.
    That's one fight. Now it's an entire mechanic that will work on any encounter as long as the requirements for a lot of vengeance are met. That's quite a difference. Nobody minds gimmick fights, but people mind gimmick abilities that make a class do something they're not supposed to - in this case, tanks doing insane damage.

    Of course this has been an issue ever since, at least at low levels, and it has now transferred to max level. I understand the reason of vengeance's existance, I just don't think it's the right solution and even if it would be, that it's implemented in the correct way. There's different ways to make vengeance scale without letting it have no cap.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by blackone View Post
    The second is "do as much damage to the correct targets as possible", that job isn't in any way effected by how much damage your tank does.
    In the current game, there's rarely a moment when the correct targets aren't all the available targets.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    I don't know if paladin mit is that much different than warriors, but why exactly are you bothering with hit/exp? It's not needed. Granted if I want to be able to use my mit AND HS spam sure I could see it being needed but with .52% hit and something like 1-2% expertise (can't get either of them lower) I'm still able to hit mit cd's on a regular basis...
    It has to do with holy power generation and damage smoothing, if you're interested go to sacredduty.net and check out Theck's work there.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 02:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/
    Tanks are already doing as much as what dps would be doing in full epic normal mode gear. Guess what bosses do in hard modes they do more dmg which means tanks will do even more dps.

    The biggest issue with this is that fact that to get even more dps tanks will try to take more and more dmg the new vengeance promotes bad game play and rewards tanks for standing in the fire.
    As far as doing as much dps as a dps player in full normal epics...I'm getting beat by our mage in 463s, so...I think it'll work itself out, but I could be wrong, I guess i'll have to wait and see on this one.

    This, the standing in fire issue, won't be a problem as long as healers are going oom, and if it works for your guild then it works, I know that I won't stand in fire because that will prevent us from getting kills since my healers are running oom as it is keeping the raid up. And that's with me pulling around 30-40k hps as the tank.

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