Tanks' DPS is WAYYY too high.

[Shaoshi]

so im seeing a lot of angry dps here, some not, and most tanks i notice really dont care, same for most healers.

the argument that fights will be scaled around tank damage so tanks need dps gear is ridiculous, blizzard knows that, and they will scale it around what tanks CAN do with tank gear, so thats 2% AP of all physical damage, wich indeed comes from base physical damage for 20S (unchanged by armor/dodge/parry/block/shields) so if the boss does more damage because the healers are getting better, the tanks will obviously do more damage as well, more AoE damage means boss does less single target, its always worked that way.

also, compared to vengeance, dps gear boosting us makes like 5% difference, we could barely do more since our mechanic works around LOADS of AP and stacking STR gems is worthless compared to vengeance right now, crit and haste wouldnt matter much either, because wou could maybe max crit to 10-12% out of a basic 5% and haste is useless for people with 0 casting time nor CDs save for a few basic abilities (like crusader strike), only attack speed on our weapon swings would change, and our white hits are s**t

DPS still do the same thing they always do, now they just have someone else contending for top DPS, wich tanks still dont care about when trying to survive in a raid.
problem is, these DPS cant take it when someone from another department comes along, and does their job better than them, so basically, egohurt.
what they cant seem to understand is the fact that they are very well capable of doing it better still, if only theyd spend a little more time on their job.

healers are still doing their best to keep the raid alive, and still have to focus on tanks, because our self healing/active mitigation is a fraction of the actual incoming damage, without healers, tanks still die.

so yeah, the tank role has been expanded, still remains that tanks try to stay alive and get the damage on themselves whilst being a bit more useful.

personally, I play as a pala tank, and yes questing is horrible, but in dungeons and raids i am more capable of assisting healers and dps than ever, and what do the dps do? they get mad because DPS is still DPS and tank is now also DPS. coming with arguments what if every dps could tank? well? thats a completely crooked comparison, since as far as i know (without facts) the lowest percentage of players are tanks, then come healers and the highest part is DPS, so, blizzard gives the lowest percentage something to make them more useful (not perfectly with regards to questing) and you come with the argument that the most people in the game should then also be capable of the most roles-in-one? I think you are most certainly mistaken.

and about healers and more roles, if none of you noticed, they are there, a good disco priest works wonders on elegon, and afaik so do mistweavers

[Sephrie]

Funny.

When I made this thread in 5.0.4 in Cata people shrugged it off as 'lol it's cata' despite explicit evidence from beta raid testing.

Now when it actually effects you, you decide to pay attention to it.

Hah.

This is my post from (I believe) that thread:

Vengeance is BROKEN, it needs to be FIXED. And please stop saying things like "gimmick fights, there are not going to be any like this in MoP". No fights with 1shot abilities that tanks can purposely take with cds (preventing 1shotting) to do a massive burst of dmg? Or just HEAVY raid damage fights that are gonna force guilds that fight for world firsts to stack tanks, because their dps is just going to be better than dps classes'? Just make it having a hard cap like pre-patch, I don't understand the reasoning after removal of the cap at all.

I saw that shit coming all along, though I focused on it being more of a broken thing that will make the game unplayable, not just an annoyance. Even though, an annoyance should also be taken care of.
But seriously, stop being like "all you care are numbers" and "appreciate the bonus raid damage". I already explained what I meant several times. Learn to read. Thanks

[Bullhurley]

Tank damage isn't too high. Dps damage is too low. Follow Ghostcrawler on Twitter and we can avoid threads like this one. You REALLY think Blizzard is sitting back going, "whelp, tanks are out dpsing all the dps in raids so far, but lets just see where it goes." No, come on. It's a gear scaling issue where the new Vengeance was designed to keep up with a certain dps plateau that dps in blues haven't reached yet.

This, if your tanks are in a position to pull more dps than the dps the fact that folks are complaining is crazy. I have an idea, turn off recount/skada and just do your job to the best of your ability/gear lvl and let it sort itself out. Right now most raids NEED that added dps. Oh, and veng is working as intended per Blizz, call it broke all you want but it's not....

[Sarac]

Yes they should, but the issue will sort it self out just a little further down the road. When dps gear up they will do more dmg, when tanks egar up they will get more avoidance which nerfs revenge.

Most are wandering why they start "broken" to begin with...with a smaller cap on vengeance the problem is fixed for the most part.

[Thirtyrock]

Most are wandering why they start "broken" to begin with...with a smaller cap on vengeance the problem is fixed for the most part.

Except there is no problem except ego's being hurt. In 2 weeks, or less, dps will be outdoing tanks in raids. our dps who are in 463 gear completely are already doing so.

The game isn't unplayable.

If anything we need vengeance of some form back in pvp. As a paladin tank I can get destroyed by any ranged dps in world pvp (which I know doesn't matter to overall balance but it is infuriating to not be able to do anything, anything at all, to a ranged dps) I can't close for more than about 5 secs at a time, I can't heal for shit because my heals scale off vengeance, I can't do damage because my damage scales off vengeance.

Tanks doing high damage in raids is a problem that will sort itself out and only people who are selfishly watching meters instead of caring about their guild's progression as a whole give 2 shits about this issue.

[RoKPaNda]

I don't really understand how this is a problem or how it diminishes anyone else's role. It's not like you can bring 8 tanks and all of them are going to out-DPS the DPS. Just the ones repeatedly getting smashed in the face. That doesn't in any way diminish the DPS of DPS classes. At all. S/he knows s/he is doing that damage because of that mechanic and it's part of their role, you know that, so how does that diminish your DPS? Compare yourself to the other DPS classes, not the tank.

As others have said it's further a non-issue because it's really just a result of scaling. In a couple weeks it will sort itself out as DPS catches up. There is really nothing at all to complain about and your fun shouldn't be ruined over it. Take pride in your ability to play well, don't get emo because a tank mechanic currently scales really well. It's helping your raid, not hurting it. Be happy for your raid.

[Danishgirl]

Blizzard poked the bear, when they wanted to change the way threat works and implemented Vengeance. I don't think we've seen the last changes at all, so for now we can just wait and see, what happens.

A few things I'd like to remind you of though:

1. In a dungeon with people who just made the required ilvl, having a tank able to do double the dmg the lowest dps do, is what makes the bosses die.

2. Raiding new content with shit gear or poorly itemized gear, tanks dps helps with progression. Had it not been for tank dmg, we wouldn't have killed some of the bosses before the enrage timer.

The way it is right now, high tank dps is a huge plus to down bosses. And even though I can understand the argument made by dps classes, I'd think that your overall goal is to down bosses and progress. Sure, the dps classes should have been topping the dmg, but as I already said, I think we'll see more changes.

But Vengeance is going to be hard to adjust, since they changed tanking classes like Bears completely and gave Threat an overhaul as well. I'd mush rather prefer the unbalanced tank dmg, than having to deal with major threat issues - until they fix it.

[Yoshimiko]

I don't see the issue.

The main tank is doing as much dps as a dps. What's the problem? Other tanks won't bring as much dps.

[alturic]

Look, you guys are missing something crucial.

I'm a tankadin and pulled 2nd dps in our first raid (just a trial run, still had people in 450 avg ilvl gear) on stone guardians.

The mage beat me. If the mage can beat me then later the others will beat me for a simple reason.

As a Tankadin I will be stacking hit and expertise until hard caps 7.5/15% respectively and then stacking mastery. Vengeance is infinite yes, but I won't be stacking crit or *much* haste, instead I'll be stacking mastery. Mastery as a tankadin gives a bit of damage, but mainly it lowers damage taken or increases my self heals. The dps will be stacking their damage increasing stats. I will never do more damage than I am now, except that bosses will deal more damage. But in this tier... with the bosses set... No, I'm capped. I won't get any better, or if i do, it will only be a little and due to mastery. Whereas DPS will be doing much much more damage as the tier increases. So, for now, the mage is beating me. Later the other 4 dps in our 10 man will be beating me as they A: get gear and B: get used to the fights.

Tanks always do higher damage at the beginning of a raid tier than at the end in comparison the the rest of the raid.

This is not a problem which will be ongoing. Get over it for a few weeks, make sure you're nailing your rotation and get gear, you'll be back on top in no time and I'll be at the bottom. Right now it's fun, but it won't last.

I don't know if paladin mit is that much different than warriors, but why exactly are you bothering with hit/exp? It's not needed. Granted if I want to be able to use my mit AND HS spam sure I could see it being needed but with .52% hit and something like 1-2% expertise (can't get either of them lower) I'm still able to hit mit cd's on a regular basis...

[Butler Log]

I don't know if paladin mit is that much different than warriors, but why exactly are you bothering with hit/exp? It's not needed. Granted if I want to be able to use my mit AND HS spam sure I could see it being needed but with .52% hit and something like 1-2% expertise (can't get either of them lower) I'm still able to hit mit cd's on a regular basis...

With hit and expertise cap you are hitting ShoR about every 7 seconds, as opposed to on average around every 8-9 seconds (if not rather longer), which is about 20-30% higher uptime of a 50-60% physical damage reduction.

So yeah, paladins NEED hit cap and at least expertise soft-cap.

[Nuckels]

I don't know if paladin mit is that much different than warriors, but why exactly are you bothering with hit/exp? It's not needed. Granted if I want to be able to use my mit AND HS spam sure I could see it being needed but with .52% hit and something like 1-2% expertise (can't get either of them lower) I'm still able to hit mit cd's on a regular basis...

Hit and expertise cap is the biggest mitigation buff statwise for a paladin, see sacredduty for the maths.

[Iceleaf]

The problem here is that it isn't though. First of all it should never ever happen. since if your dps is so bad that it can't outdps a tank you shouldn't be able to ever down a boss. Secondly, this is taking into account everyone that uses world of logs wich includes some of the best players in the world, and tanks are still dominating fights without gimmicks.
(snip)

Sorry for late reply.

Also sorry, I should've been more specific.
What I meant about "it can be l2p issue" was not "best players need to l2p".
I meant more about heroics/lfr where there are not sometimes not that great players who do very low dps, making tank dps seem "ludicrous" etc.

Tho my point still stands. Tanks have higher base damage but bad scaling, usually. Some other specs and classes have this too.
These are usually the ones topping meters at start of expansion..vengeance also helps them quite bit.
Once low base dmg+good scaling specs/classes get some good gear, they should get above tanks easily. If they dont, it needs to be balanced. I dont see why they should balance dps to blues+some normal epics when they havent done that in past either. But *shrug*

Also normal start-tier bosses have never been huge dps checks anyway.

[Kegler]

For the longest time it was incredibly hard just to find a tank. Now they have made them more fun to play and you want to diminish that?

[undercovergnome]

how is this a problem, they do higher damage so that they can hold aggro from dpsers doing 100k dps - just judge the dps from the first after the tanks - simple

[wow]

Except there is no problem except ego's being hurt. In 2 weeks, or less, dps will be outdoing tanks in raids. our dps who are in 463 gear completely are already doing so.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/
Tanks are already doing as much as what dps would be doing in full epic normal mode gear. Guess what bosses do in hard modes they do more dmg which means tanks will do even more dps.

The biggest issue with this is that fact that to get even more dps tanks will try to take more and more dmg the new vengeance promotes bad game play and rewards tanks for standing in the fire.

[kassy]

it's a number. as long as the boss goes down, who the hell cares if tanks are top5

[Alski]

From my experience (as a druid tank) this happened at the start of every single other expansion. DPS scale better than tanks when it comes to dps thats just life in WoW

[Maelstrom51]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/
Tanks are already doing as much as what dps would be doing in full epic normal mode gear. Guess what bosses do in hard modes they do more dmg which means tanks will do even more dps.

The biggest issue with this is that fact that to get even more dps tanks will try to take more and more dmg the new vengeance promotes bad game play and rewards tanks for standing in the fire.

Tanks are doing as much damage as dps in full epic normal mode gear when two out of three normal mode raids aren't even out yet. Right.

[Evory]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/
Tanks are already doing as much as what dps would be doing in full epic normal mode gear. Guess what bosses do in hard modes they do more dmg which means tanks will do even more dps.

The biggest issue with this is that fact that to get even more dps tanks will try to take more and more dmg the new vengeance promotes bad game play and rewards tanks for standing in the fire.

Except standing in fire won't increase your vengeance stack only getting hit smack in the face by the boss will.

But outside the encounters with special tanking mechanics or just bosses that hits like a truck, our dps classes are already doing more dps than tanks are, i fail to see the problem.

[momirmaster]

Except standing in fire won't increase your vengeance stack only getting hit smack in the face by the boss will.

But outside the encounters with special tanking mechanics or just bosses that hits like a truck, our dps classes are already doing more dps than tanks are, i fail to see the problem.

its not a problem. Its the bad players who are complaining cause "they" cannot outdps the tank. I fully expect when we start raiding next week all the DPS in my raid will out dps me and I had world #1 ultraxion 10 heroic World #2 morchok 10 heroic and World #5 Warlord 10 heroic Prot Paladin back at 15% before we stopped farming mounts for the tier.