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  1. #21
    Well, Jab is a much more reliant source of Chi. I've spent way too many times casting Soothing, trying to proc a third Chi for a fast Enveloping with no success...

    Also, if the damage is not that severe you can just auto-attack and still get some reasonable healing out of it. For me, fistweaving is more mana efficient and not so RNG. Best bet is to give both a try and see how you do or witch you like more.

  2. #22
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelzhl View Post
    The problem is that the HPM and HPCT is so poor with melee healing that you are better off using Soothing Mist directly.

    Keeping SZ and TP up is suppose to require more skill to use than Soothing Mist, but if the return is worse than Soothing Mist, why use it at all?
    I think your math is off. My melee attacks hit for over 10k every 2 seconds (which is 100% healing if your statue is up and you have 2 stacks of Serpent's Zeal). My uplift heals for 25k. Assuming 8 targets (which is not all the time) that's 200k healing vs. 150k healing over 30 seconds for melee, and that's smart passive healing. It's worth it to keep Serpent's Zeal up during periods of low damage for additional healing when you need to spam jab,jab,uplift.
    Last edited by DirewolfX; 2012-10-08 at 03:37 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemii View Post
    No.

    Jab/Jab/Blackout costs the same mana as Jab/Jab/Uplift only the latter does massively more healing. Unless you're attempt to play a true hybrid to say meet an enrage you shouldn't really be pure dpsing in a raid, you should be healing via dpsing (which for Monks does more healing than straight up healing).

    On a normal fight where you're mostly playing Jab/Jab/Uplift with some SCK in the bursty phases you shouldn't be casting Tiger Palm because there's no use in buffing auto attack speed when you're not casting Blackout Kick in order to make your auto attack heal. If you were to Blackout kick and Tiger Palm to get full stacks of both buffs you'd waste so many GCD's not casting Uplift in order to buff you eminence, which is way less of your healing done.
    No.

    You MUST keep Tiger Power and Serpents whatever from Blackout kick UP AT ALL TIMES IF YOU ARE FIST WEAVING. Period.

    If you are looking for the most mana efficient way of fistweaving, you'll want glyph of Mana Tea, and to use nearly all chi on Tiger Palm. The only exception to this is when you need more raid healing, in which case you'll want to use Uplift, making sure renewing mists are on as many targets as possible. I generally will use Renewing Mist on cooldown, because it provides 1 chi, as well as great raid healing. You will also want to make sure to keep Expel Harm on your AH bars, as if you take damage, it will heal yourself, damage and enemy AND provide you with 1 chi at a cheaper cost than both Jab and Renewing Mist.

    Aside from that, there has been some awful info in here. If you need some help, send me a PM and I will help you out as best as I can. There is some seriously bad info here.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 11:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by LordHidious View Post
    Well, Jab is a much more reliant source of Chi. I've spent way too many times casting Soothing, trying to proc a third Chi for a fast Enveloping with no success...

    Also, if the damage is not that severe you can just auto-attack and still get some reasonable healing out of it. For me, fistweaving is more mana efficient and not so RNG. Best bet is to give both a try and see how you do or witch you like more.
    You probably do not have your Jade Serpent Statue down. The statue will also cast Soothing Mist and will also increase your chance to earn an extra chi.

    No matter if you are fistweaving or mistweaving, you must ALWAYS have your statue down for fight.
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  4. #24
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Interestingly many contradictions here. Is there anyone who has actually done the math? Right now this thread is just a lot of "you are wrong" and "no, you are wrong" without anything to really back it up.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  5. #25
    Field Marshal carlosanjos's Avatar
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    Yep, Im still on the same step....
    Well check this log as an example here I believe the fistweaving healing is the eminence and the eminence ( statue) right? so basicly fistweaving is only 1.4% of his healing
    And I beliebe the guys is no noob he ranked #1 healing done on Feng

  6. #26
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Feng is a bad example for Fistweaving, because the longest phase (Fists/Epicenter) has long periods of intense healing where you can't be in melee range of the boss. It really favors exactly what he was doing--which is SCK=>Uplift with ReM on cooldown. That said, he also has some pretty solid mana regen and got an Innervate. Spamming SCK like that will put you OOM fast if your gear doesn't support it.

    It was about 20% of my healing on Stone Guard 25N, which is surprisingly still one of the top 100 monk parses for the fight, and I did it with 456ish ilvl:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/b...?s=3983&e=4415

    This fight is much better for it, because there's a lot of random damage (read: DPS standing in stuff), which smart heals really helps with, and the raid tends to be more spread out compared to Feng, where it's easy to stack for SCK.

  7. #27
    Field Marshal carlosanjos's Avatar
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    ok, it becomes more clear what to do... thankz

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    I think your math is off. My melee attacks hit for over 10k every 2 seconds (which is 100% healing if your statue is up and you have 2 stacks of Serpent's Zeal). My uplift heals for 25k. Assuming 8 targets (which is not all the time) that's 200k healing vs. 150k healing over 30 seconds for melee, and that's smart passive healing. It's worth it to keep Serpent's Zeal up during periods of low damage for additional healing when you need to spam jab,jab,uplift.
    Melee hits only heal for 50% of the damage done. My Stone Guard log had 164 melee attacks, averaging 7602 damage per hit including blocks and misses, or roughly 3801 heals per hit. Over a 6:14 fight, it's about 44% uptime with a 1.0 attack speed. Most fights have us running out of fire and healing in addition to sitting on the boss, so I just rounded it up and call it 15 attacks per 30 second period.

    My Uplift hits for around the same, but the number I use is after accounting for overhealing. I just pull numbers from Spirit King fight since that's where I used Uplift the most. Your Uplift average is 20508.1 according to your log.

    I think we can all agree that using BoK and TP to heal is simply not efficient on it's own. Jab is also a very reliable and efficient way to generate Chi for big heals. However, keeping up Serpent Zeal and TP every 30/20 seconds vs just using Soothing mist is still up for debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Feng is a bad example for Fistweaving, because the longest phase (Fists/Epicenter) has long periods of intense healing where you can't be in melee range of the boss. It really favors exactly what he was doing--which is SCK=>Uplift with ReM on cooldown. That said, he also has some pretty solid mana regen and got an Innervate. Spamming SCK like that will put you OOM fast if your gear doesn't support it.

    It was about 20% of my healing on Stone Guard 25N, which is surprisingly still one of the top 100 monk parses for the fight, and I did it with 456ish ilvl:

    This fight is much better for it, because there's a lot of random damage (read: DPS standing in stuff), which smart heals really helps with, and the raid tends to be more spread out compared to Feng, where it's easy to stack for SCK.
    My Stone Guard 10N fight has about the same amount of eminence heal with 18.5%. I think Stone Guard is an exceptionally good fight for fistweaving given the high amount of movement you have to do. I've kept Serpent Zeal up 98% of the time during Stone Guard.

    Feng is more like the average fight where you can't sit on the boss 100% of the time. My Serpent Zeal only has a up time of 78.6% and my eminence heal went down to 9% combined. Chi Burst is absolutely awesome for this fight, I can only assume it's even more OP for 25 man.

  9. #29
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelzhl View Post
    Melee hits only heal for 50% of the damage done. My Stone Guard log had 164 melee attacks, averaging 7602 damage per hit including blocks and misses, or roughly 3801 heals per hit. Over a 6:14 fight, it's about 44% uptime with a 1.0 attack speed. Most fights have us running out of fire and healing in addition to sitting on the boss, so I just rounded it up and call it 15 attacks per 30 second period.
    It actually causes your auto-attacks to proc Emminence, which means your statue doubles the healing to 100% healing.

    Looking at my Stone Guard parse:

    Eminence - 2,274,766
    Eminence (Statue) - 2,181,588
    Melee - 1,161,872
    Serpent's Zeal - ~78% uptime.

    Blackout Kick - 437,865
    Jab - 405,459
    Tiger Strikes - 395,233 (this is really auto-attack damage, most likely)
    Tiger Palm - 206,513

    There's no healing from any source called Serpent's Zeal or Melee and there's also no way I'd hit 2 million healing from Emminence or Emminence (Statue) based on my numbers with BoK/Jab/TP, so we can infer that Serpent Zeal auto-attack damage is included in Emminence and Emminence (Statue).

    My Uplift hits for around the same, but the number I use is after accounting for overhealing. I just pull numbers from Spirit King fight since that's where I used Uplift the most. Your Uplift average is 20508.1 according to your log.
    That's a good point; I was just doing some quick math in between attempts on Elegon (hence the quick edit to lower my auto-attack damage in between attempts when I remembered Touch of the Titans gives +50% damage). Overhealing (and not having all 8 targets) makes BoK for SZ a better prospect than Uplift at times, since the smart healing is very unlikely to be overheal (unless there's very little healing to do period--in which case it doesn't matter).

    I think we can all agree that using BoK and TP to heal is simply not efficient on it's own. Jab is also a very reliable and efficient way to generate Chi for big heals. However, keeping up Serpent Zeal and TP every 30/20 seconds vs just using Soothing mist is still up for debate.
    Agree on point one and two. I'd like to separate point 3 into: Keep up SZ, keep up SZ + TP, keep up neither.

    It's also worth noting that 5x uses of TP is really just 4 chi, since you get a free Surging Mists, which generates a chi for you. I'm still not sure about the value of keeping up TP, though. I think TP is more of a chi dump, when you have light damage and want to spend some chi.

    My Stone Guard 10N fight has about the same amount of eminence heal with 18.5%. I think Stone Guard is an exceptionally good fight for fistweaving given the high amount of movement you have to do. I've kept Serpent Zeal up 98% of the time during Stone Guard.

    Feng is more like the average fight where you can't sit on the boss 100% of the time. My Serpent Zeal only has a up time of 78.6% and my eminence heal went down to 9% combined. Chi Burst is absolutely awesome for this fight, I can only assume it's even more OP for 25 man.
    I'm not sure Feng is an 'average' fight. Feng allows an impressive amount of stacking, which accentuates the power of SCK and has very clear periods of high damage, where you can abuse Jab,Jab,Uplift followed by periods where you can catch some regen time.

    I'll admit, I haven't respecced from Chi Wave for leveling yet, since I don't really use the tier 2 talents in raid. I will try out Chi Burst this week, although I'm missing farm night, so I won't really see Feng. I'll probably get some time on Elegon with it tonight, though.

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