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  1. #21
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blikz1 View Post
    healthcare is a human right, if americans don't like it they can die due to enormous and rediculous bills that bankrupt you and doom you into the streets.
    I don't mean to offend anyone but people would be better off with it and it's not there because of some bullshit propaganda.

    It's rediculous if you suddenly get a condition or if something fucks up in your body you're screwed if you're a middle class citizen.
    It's not that Americans don't think healthcare is a right, it's just that they (some of them anyways, judging by this forum and the general socio-economic system) seem to have this mentality that you have to earn some of your rights, or that you can lose a right if you do something wrong or don't do something right. This totally flies in the face of what human rights are essentially supposed to be, but that's another matter.

  2. #22
    I am Murloc! Orlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommypilgrim View Post
    This is one of the most offensive things I have ever read. The fact that you would prefer other people not to get treatment to cut your waiting time is one of the most abominable things I have ever seen written. I only wish I could give my opinion of you without being banned.

    In response to the OP, the British helthcare system is brilliant. The most contact I have had with it was when I fractured my ankle at university. I broke it on Saturday night, stayed in the hospital, they then drove me in an Ambulance 100 miles to the hospital in my hometown, so I could be nearer to my family. I had to wait a couple of days for the swelling to subside, had an operation Wednesday night, and was released at noon on Friday. After it had healed I received several weeks of physiotherapy, until I was comfortable walking with it. For free.
    If they want treatment, then they can pay for it. If they cannot afford it I should NOT have to pay for it with my taxes. There are charities out there to help with things like that funded by donations. Im sick and tired of paying more and more taxes to pay for other peoples bills whether it be healthcare, food stamps, welfare etc... They can pay for it themself. Get another job, sell all your non essential electronics, cut the cable, internet, and cell phone, sell your car and get a cheaper one etc... My money is MY money, NOT yours or anyone elses!

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 03:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline View Post
    Universal health care systems are different in every country, but they all pretty much have one thing in common: people really like them, and would throttle you if you tried to take it away from them. The USA will be the same. Don't believe me? Try ending Medicare and see how long you go before you get beaten by an angry mob.

    All the talk of rationing of care or the government making decisions instead of you and your doctor is either overblown or else downright fiction. If you have an acute situation that requires faster treatment you'll get moved up to get treated sooner. Old people aren't left to die or go untreated because they're old. You see people in their 80's getting pretty big treatments like hip replacements. The only time they get denied is if there is little prognosis (again by doctors, not the gov't) of recovering from the procedure.

    Even the costs are lower in universal systems. Gov't has huge buying power for discounts or control over rates. Allowing people to get access to doctors and treatment before their medical conditions get out of hand saves a ton of money too.

    The only real downside of universal healthcare is that wait times tend to be longer to get care in order to help keep costs down. If you're rich that seems like a bad deal. if you're poor or middle class and couldn't afford the procedure or the insurance to cover it, then it's still a pretty good deal. Would you rather wait 5 months for a procedure or 3 weeks and have to put another mortgage on your house?
    I disagree, if there is an 80 year old man and a 35 year old man who both need a heart transplant and thereis only 1 heart available at the time I GUARANTEE you the young guy would get it since the old guy already lived long enough and probably only has a few years left anyway, rather than first come first served, which is how it should be

  3. #23
    Mechagnome Fateq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    If they want treatment, then they can pay for it. If they cannot afford it I should NOT have to pay for it with my taxes. There are charities out there to help with things like that funded by donations. Im sick and tired of paying more and more taxes to pay for other peoples bills whether it be healthcare, food stamps, welfare etc... They can pay for it themself. Get another job, sell all your non essential electronics, cut the cable, internet, and cell phone, sell your car and get a cheaper one etc... My money is MY money, NOT yours or anyone elses!

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 03:05 PM ----------



    I disagree, if there is an 80 year old man and a 35 year old man who both need a heart transplant and thereis only 1 heart available at the time I GUARANTEE you the young guy would get it since the old guy already lived long enough and probably only has a few years left anyway, rather than first come first served, which is how it should be
    Do a lot of people share your viewpoint? It's like you're from a whole other planet.

  4. #24
    Universal healthcare isn't the answer.

    This is entirely a supply-and-demand problem.

    The core problem is that there are artificial barriers-to-entry for people to become doctors, surgeons, and medical providers. To become a doctor, most schools place unnecessarily extreme high standards. They require you to take calculus, physics, and a ton of back breaking study. It does not need to be anywhere near that difficult to treat the sick.

    These are artificial requirements designed to weed out many people interested in becoming a doctor. The purpose is to make the supply of doctors EXTREMELY low, so that health care costs are sky high, and doctors get rich.

    The fix is not Universal health care like the NHS. We need to investigate and prosecute corrupt school boards who set these standards so high. We need to cut admission cuts and requirements. All of this will dramatically boost the supply of doctors and health care providers. In a free market system, this will cause the cost of health care to drop substantially.

    The NHS is just another health care racket in a different form, where you are conditioned to be told to wait in line and see an authority to determine if you are worthy of care...or not.

  5. #25
    Dreadlord Wookeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    If they want treatment, then they can pay for it. If they cannot afford it I should NOT have to pay for it with my taxes. There are charities out there to help with things like that funded by donations. Im sick and tired of paying more and more taxes to pay for other peoples bills whether it be healthcare, food stamps, welfare etc... They can pay for it themself. Get another job, sell all your non essential electronics, cut the cable, internet, and cell phone, sell your car and get a cheaper one etc... My money is MY money, NOT yours or anyone elses!
    Is there anyone who actualy enjoys paying taxes ? No, but we do it because it gives benefits, not only to you but also other individuals. The only thing i can make up from this thread thus far is that people who seem to oppose universal healthcare sound extremely greedy and self centered. People that care about nobody but themselves but they'd be first in line for help if shit does hit the fan. It's time to look beyond the length of your nose.

  6. #26
    Brewmaster Zeverin's Avatar
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    NHS is a human right, in my opinion, and not a luxury good. Every human being is entitled to free (or at least tendentiously cheaper) healthcare.

    I don't mind to contribute to a common welfare, through my taxes, if that covers everyone's needs, and mine as well.

    If you want a top health care plan, you can always opt to get screened by a medic from the private sector.
    Of course, the top medics are all working in the private sector, so you're basically paying extra quality service, but a «public» doctor should be enough to fix you up.

    If everyone had an health insurance, premiums would be much lower for everyone, overall.

  7. #27
    Legendary! Sigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    If they want treatment, then they can pay for it. If they cannot afford it I should NOT have to pay for it with my taxes. There are charities out there to help with things like that funded by donations. Im sick and tired of paying more and more taxes to pay for other peoples bills whether it be healthcare, food stamps, welfare etc... They can pay for it themself. Get another job, sell all your non essential electronics, cut the cable, internet, and cell phone, sell your car and get a cheaper one etc... My money is MY money, NOT yours or anyone elses!
    God forbid that one day, you end up in a situation where you have not been able to pay for your medical insurance for what ever reason and end up being either going bankrupt due to medical expenses, refused treatment and possibly die due to no fault of your own. if that day comes (and I sincerely hope it does not) then I pray to god you look back on your views as they are now and realize that a truly universal healthcare system is the correct way to have health care.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 08:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    The NHS is just another health care racket in a different form, where you are conditioned to be told to wait in line and see an authority to determine if you are worthy of care...or not.
    Wait what ? where do you get this infomation from ? if you need care you get it. simple.

  8. #28
    Pandaren Monk Mnevis's Avatar
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    Another main argument I hear for the US's insanely expensive healthcare system is that 'we do all the R&D for the entire world, so if we didn't have the US where people pay thousands of dollars for Pfizer's newest drug, then it would never be cost-effective to develop it and it would never be there to be given away cheap in other poor countries'.

    I'm from the US and haven't lived anywhere else, so I'm not qualified to respond to the OP's question, but I think that it's pretty hypocritical of us to be all "we're a Christian nation" when it comes to gays, and "we're a Free Country, where you get what you can pay for" when it comes to bankrupting people who get life-threatening illnesses (or even just are some young person who didn't think they needed insurance and has some bad fracture and ends up being charged a year's salary).

  9. #29
    Universal healthcare would be nice, but I will say no because it will cost me more. I get taxed enough as it is.

  10. #30
    Unfortunately, Oorlong is not completely abnormal. There are a lot of people that share his view. However, and gladly so, there are lots that do not.

    The problem with his point of view is that he sees only his point of view. He's probably in a good place, has a decent job that provides decent health care. He sees his premiums going up and assumes that it is being caused by uninsured people getting through the cracks and that cost, in turn, is passed down to him. The flaw in that logic is simple, if everyone has health care, then those costs will actually change less. Sure there may be some longer lines to wait in, but then that's what having an appointment is all about. Your visit is at 2:00pm? Show up at 2pm.

    The other problem he doesn't see is that a lot of companies, even large multinational companies have crap for health care, but they have it, therefore they fulfill their obligation to do so. For example: One of the plans and the most predominant health care plan for the company I work for is basically a $100 a month premium, $25 a visit for what they cover, which they say is a lot, but in reality it doesn't cover squat. The MAXIMUM benefit per year is $3000. And yes, for those familiar with USA health care reforms, a company is not allowed to cover anyone annually for less than $750,000. This company applied for a waiver and it was accepted, so they can still maintain that $3000 max yearly benefit. In other words, I spent $1200 per year for around 5 years. Add that of the 3 times I used it, each time, though when I called and the company said they would cover it, they turned around and said that's not something we cover. So I still had to pay out of pocket for doctor visits. Thus I got ZERO benefit for my $1200 per year.

    So yeah, I'm uninsured now because all I was doing was paying money to a company that consistently denied me health care, even still, with a max benefit with essentially zero upside.

    Now that things are changing, I'm okay with that. I'd welcome universal healthcare too. One simple reason, and it would be this way for pretty much everyone, you really wouldn't see the difference. It would come out of your paycheck just like an insurance premium. Heck, I'm even for people who want to put extra money down, like an extra $500+ per month who want more exclusive coverage. They can have their private clinics for all I care. I just think that everyone deserves health care, and that it should be a right and for those that want to spend the extra, a priveledge.

  11. #31
    Fluffy Kitten Dacien's Avatar
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    It's too complicated for me to ever develop a completely defensible platform to argue from, but I know I oppose taxing people for not getting health insurance. I might be okay with it if the scope of the impact only covered people and politicians I could put trust in. Or at least be willing to take a leap of faith with.

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Istaril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmatum View Post
    Universal healthcare would be nice, but I will say no because it will cost me more. I get taxed enough as it is.
    Chances are the taxation you receive for a universal system would cost less than you pay for in insurance. Insurance companies are a business, they will squeeze you for every last bit of cash they can get, and try and worm their way out of paying for anything if they possibly can. The taxation however is a flat rate depending on income and would provide you coverage, they Government also wouldn't be trying to avoid paying for your operations.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Istaril View Post
    Chances are the taxation you receive for a universal system would cost less than you pay for in insurance. Insurance companies are a business, they will squeeze you for every last bit of cash they can get, and try and worm their way out of paying for anything if they possibly can. The taxation however is a flat rate depending on income and would provide you coverage, they Government also wouldn't be trying to avoid paying for your operations.
    I get free healthcare but I'm still taxed 50%.

    Either way, I'm not paying more taxes so others can have it.

  14. #34
    My view is that instead of increasing the size of government we should focus on what's been working.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkacid View Post
    My view is that instead of increasing the size of government we should focus on what's been working.
    So universal health care?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  16. #36
    I am Murloc! Orlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeverin View Post
    NHS is a human right, in my opinion, and not a luxury good. Every human being is entitled to free (or at least tendentiously cheaper) healthcare.

    I don't mind to contribute to a common welfare, through my taxes, if that covers everyone's needs, and mine as well.

    If you want a top health care plan, you can always opt to get screened by a medic from the private sector.
    Of course, the top medics are all working in the private sector, so you're basically paying extra quality service, but a «public» doctor should be enough to fix you up.

    If everyone had an health insurance, premiums would be much lower for everyone, overall.
    I would be ok with paying for private coverage as long as there is a way for me to opt out of paying the tax for the public healthcare. I shouldnt have to pay for something I wont use,

  17. #37
    I've seen both sides of the health care debate. I had health insurance though my mother's work many years ago and it was good care. However once I lost it I ended up needing it because I had a couple of very serious hospital stays. After the second one, which was about a year ago, I was fortunate to get approved for Medicaid and am able to get my oncology medicine because of it.

    Having been on both sides of the issue I think that health care is a right. Now what the best solution is to insuring everyone, that I don't know but we need to figure out something.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    I would be ok with paying for private coverage as long as there is a way for me to opt out of paying the tax for the public healthcare. I shouldnt have to pay for something I wont use,
    You'll still benefit from it. A healthier populace benefits everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  19. #39
    Titan Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The problem with Universal Healthcare in my opinion is that those of us who already pay for healthcare will end up paying MORE in taxes to pay for those who refuse to buy insurance which is bullshit.

    People should be more responsible and pay for their own stuff. If buying health insurance requires you to give up non-necessities like TV, newer cars, cell phones, dinner at restaurants etc... then so be it.

    In addition to that we will now have to wait in longer lines since there are more people that need care and the same amount of caregivers. Also we will likely not get the same standard of care due to more people being given healthcare and being rushed through the system. Also under a Universal healthcare system, generally the doctors are paid what the government says their services are worth and as such there is no incentive to more than the minimum work since they wouldnt get paid for it. Less people are also likely to become doctors since they cannot control their own income and may not even make enough money to pay off their student loans in a timely manner. Most doctors become doctors because it pays well. You take away the high pay and people dont want to be doctors.

    The ONLY people who want universal healthcare are people who either dont want to or cant pay for their own insurance. The rest of us who already pay for our healthcare are happy with it the way it is.

    TLDR; Those of us who pay for healthcare dont want the quality and quantity of what we ALREADY have diluted and pay a higher cost for it through taxes.
    You do realize that more often than not, health care via tax = lower than insurance cost. I mean the rest of the world manages to do it, except America. America spends the most on health care than other governments, simply it's so expensive here because it's all about capatalism.

  20. #40
    I am Murloc! Orlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    So universal health care?
    Government run healthcare sucks. Just ask any disabled veteran who uses the VA clinic. I am a disabled veteran and could have free healthcare for life but only at VA clinics. The service and quality of care you get there is dreadful and as such I refuse to use it, so I pay $100 a week out of my paycheck to pay for the healthcare plan my employer offers. I would never use the VA clinic unless it was a life or death last resort, and I dont want the whole country to only offer this same crappy service. They get bottom rung doctors who cant get hired anywhere else. They dont pay doctors what they should so the good ones never apply there, and wait times are horrible. IF I need to see an orthopedist for example, they are only there 2 Tuesdays a month. The other days they are at other VA clinics so it takes months to get an appointment.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 04:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You'll still benefit from it. A healthier populace benefits everyone.
    How does it benefit me?

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