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  1. #41
    The Lightbringer Istaril's Avatar
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    Government run healthcare sucks.
    Perhaps -Your- Government. It's certainly not the case with the NHS, although I do feel pain for my English counter-parts, considering the Con-Lib determination to rip it's original purpose to shreds.

  2. #42
    I am Murloc! Orlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    You do realize that more often than not, health care via tax = lower than insurance cost. I mean the rest of the world manages to do it, except America. America spends the most on health care than other governments, simply it's so expensive here because it's all about capatalism.
    and healthcare via tax = less quality care and longer waits.

    The only reason the US isnt number 1 in the world for healthcare is because not everyone has it. If they ranked healthcare solely on the quality of care that is received by those who receive it, there wouldnt be another country close to the US

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    Government run healthcare sucks. Just ask any disabled veteran who uses the VA clinic. I am a disabled veteran and could have free healthcare for life but only at VA clinics. The service and quality of care you get there is dreadful and as such I refuse to use it, so I pay $100 a week out of my paycheck to pay for the healthcare plan my employer offers. I would never use the VA clinic unless it was a life or death last resort, and I dont want the whole country to only offer this same crappy service. They get bottom rung doctors who cant get hired anywhere else. They dont pay doctors what they should so the good ones never apply there, and wait times are horrible. IF I need to see an orthopedist for example, they are only there 2 Tuesdays a month. The other days they are at other VA clinics so it takes months to get an appointment.
    Except government run universal health care systems the world round are demonstrably the best performing systems in existence. And VA Hospitals outrank private ones in patient satisfaction, by significant margins. Its also cheap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  4. #44
    The Lightbringer Istaril's Avatar
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    and healthcare via tax = less quality care and longer waits.
    Complete bollocks. Unless you have any statistics to back this up, you're just echoing the Conservative news channels.

  5. #45
    Titan Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmatum View Post
    I get free healthcare but I'm still taxed 50%.

    Either way, I'm not paying more taxes so others can have it.
    how are you taxed 50%?

  6. #46
    and healthcare via tax = less quality care and longer waits.
    Demonstrably not true.
    The only reason the US isnt number 1 in the world for healthcare is because not everyone has it. If they ranked healthcare solely on the quality of care that is received by those who receive it, there wouldnt be another country close to the US
    /facepalm

    yes if they ignored all the ways our healthcare system fails then it would look a lot better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  7. #47
    Titan Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    and healthcare via tax = less quality care and longer waits.

    The only reason the US isnt number 1 in the world for healthcare is because not everyone has it. If they ranked healthcare solely on the quality of care that is received by those who receive it, there wouldnt be another country close to the US
    Hey guess what guys, we have amazing health care here! Too bad most of you can't get it huh? Yeah, that's real useful.

    Yet we still end up below average compared to, oh everyone other first world. Wonder how that happens.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 04:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    .

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 04:45 PM ----------



    How does it benefit me?
    This is all any one ever gives a shit about, and it's disgusting.

  8. #48
    Universal Healthcare has statisticly proven to be the best and most cost efficient way for a country to supply ALL the people with their medical needs. I have alot of medical issues and have NEVER been in a very long wait. When I have a minor issue like a cold or itch you can easily make an appointment with your doctor for the next day.

  9. #49
    Pandaren Monk Mnevis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkacid View Post
    My view is that instead of increasing the size of government we should focus on what's been working.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    So universal health care?
    To expand on that position there, which might need it, the United States by most measures does a fairly lousy job at keeping its citizens well, compared to the whole of the industrial world, and especially considering how much more we spend per capita than anyone else.

    There are legitimate reasons why Japan or Sweden might have an easier time at that project, but that doesn't mean we can blindly say 'we have the best healthcare system in the world' without regard for any objective statistics.

  10. #50
    Conservative media and politics has certainly done its job of brainwashing and fear mongering our lowest denominations in the US.

    People don't want to pay for other people when they get sick? Think the should cover it themselves? mmk. So by this logic only those paying taxes should get to use roads, bridges, call 911 for an emergency, and any of the MANY other government services you're small mind apparently takes for granted. And lets go one step further, people should get to use them more or less based on the % of taxes they pay. So if you are only making $30,000 a year and paying whatever your tax bracket is, then sorry but you barely get any government service at all. If you have a long commute I hope you never need help from the fire department.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Universal healthcare isn't the answer.

    This is entirely a supply-and-demand problem.

    The core problem is that there are artificial barriers-to-entry for people to become doctors, surgeons, and medical providers. To become a doctor, most schools place unnecessarily extreme high standards. They require you to take calculus, physics, and a ton of back breaking study. It does not need to be anywhere near that difficult to treat the sick.

    These are artificial requirements designed to weed out many people interested in becoming a doctor. The purpose is to make the supply of doctors EXTREMELY low, so that health care costs are sky high, and doctors get rich.

    The fix is not Universal health care like the NHS. We need to investigate and prosecute corrupt school boards who set these standards so high. We need to cut admission cuts and requirements. All of this will dramatically boost the supply of doctors and health care providers. In a free market system, this will cause the cost of health care to drop substantially.

    The NHS is just another health care racket in a different form, where you are conditioned to be told to wait in line and see an authority to determine if you are worthy of care...or not.
    Lowering doctor standards is clearly not the answer. You may not think that calculus and physics is important, but they play an integral role in determining drug pharmacokinetics which is important for everything from how much aspirin you take to the anesthesiologist making sure you actually wake up from your surgery when you are supposed to. However, as a former medical student, I can tell you that there are two clear bottlenecks in the US system that can be improved upon, without having to rebuild the system from the ground up into a NHS-type entity.

    1) Many uninsured people go to the Emergency Room when they get the sniffles. If you wait long enough in the ER in the US, you will be seen eventually - the ER cannot turn people away. If you cannot pay the ER for their services (or do not have insurance to do it for you), the hospital effectively eats the bill. To defray this cost, they pass it on to the people who do have insurance or can pay; this has resulted in a large increase in the average ER bill/hospital stay for patients.

    2) Lack of accessibility to primary care physicians. To see a specialist (say, a gastroenterologist), you usually need a referral from your primary care physician (e.g. family doctor type person). PCPs are effectively the gatekeepers to higher level care, because they have the knowledge to decide when something is more serious or when it does not need specialized care. However, Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements for PCP visits are very low, many times not covering the operating cost of seeing that patient. Therefore, >50% of all primary care physicians in the US do not accept new Medicare/Medicaid patients and many physicians that held a majority of patients in these services have closed their practices after several reimbursement cuts. Primary care is the most important aspect of health care (because preventing something is much cheaper than treating it after the fact), but there is little to no incentive to go into primary care as a physician.

    This is the largest issue I have with Obamacare (does Obamacare have many good things in it? Yes. IMO, they are overshadowed by the large cost and therefore tax burden it would present to effectively mitigate these two issues). Say you cover an additional 30 million people under Medicaid like Obamacare wants - where will they go? They cannot go to a PCP, because the majority do not accept new Medicaid patients. So they will go to the emergency room for the sniffles, just like they did before. They are in effectively the same situation they were before.

    Speaking of supply and demand, expecting healthcare costs to decrease when you increase the demand without increasing or incentivizing the supply is pure foolishness.

  12. #52
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zylos View Post
    Conservative media and politics has certainly done its job of brainwashing and fear mongering our lowest denominations in the US.

    People don't want to pay for other people when they get sick? Think the should cover it themselves? mmk. So by this logic only those paying taxes should get to use roads, bridges, call 911 for an emergency, and any of the MANY other government services you're small mind apparently takes for granted. And lets go one step further, people should get to use them more or less based on the % of taxes they pay. So if you are only making $30,000 a year and paying whatever your tax bracket is, then sorry but you barely get any government service at all. If you have a long commute I hope you never need help from the fire department.
    There is a reason the French term the US' system Heartless American Capitalism.

  13. #53
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    I'm an American and therefore I believe that universal healthcare will make us into a socialist totalitarian state like the USSR.

    /endsarcasm

    Really, this attitude from the right that universal healthcare is evil just pisses me off.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 05:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    There is a reason the French term the US' system Heartless American Capitalism.
    They call it like it is.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 05:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    If they want treatment, then they can pay for it. If they cannot afford it I should NOT have to pay for it with my taxes. There are charities out there to help with things like that funded by donations. Im sick and tired of paying more and more taxes to pay for other peoples bills whether it be healthcare, food stamps, welfare etc... They can pay for it themself. Get another job, sell all your non essential electronics, cut the cable, internet, and cell phone, sell your car and get a cheaper one etc... My money is MY money, NOT yours or anyone elses!
    Yes, because charities have been able to do enough to solve this dilemma.

    /endsarcasm.

    If a video game developer removed tumors from players, they'd whine about nerfing their loss in weight and access to radiation powers. -Cracked.com

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by anyaka21 View Post
    Unfortunately, Oorlong is not completely abnormal. There are a lot of people that share his view. However, and gladly so, there are lots that do not.

    The problem with his point of view is that he sees only his point of view. He's probably in a good place, has a decent job that provides decent health care. He sees his premiums going up and assumes that it is being caused by uninsured people getting through the cracks and that cost, in turn, is passed down to him. The flaw in that logic is simple, if everyone has health care, then those costs will actually change less. Sure there may be some longer lines to wait in, but then that's what having an appointment is all about. Your visit is at 2:00pm? Show up at 2pm.

    The other problem he doesn't see is that a lot of companies, even large multinational companies have crap for health care, but they have it, therefore they fulfill their obligation to do so. For example: One of the plans and the most predominant health care plan for the company I work for is basically a $100 a month premium, $25 a visit for what they cover, which they say is a lot, but in reality it doesn't cover squat. The MAXIMUM benefit per year is $3000. And yes, for those familiar with USA health care reforms, a company is not allowed to cover anyone annually for less than $750,000. This company applied for a waiver and it was accepted, so they can still maintain that $3000 max yearly benefit. In other words, I spent $1200 per year for around 5 years. Add that of the 3 times I used it, each time, though when I called and the company said they would cover it, they turned around and said that's not something we cover. So I still had to pay out of pocket for doctor visits. Thus I got ZERO benefit for my $1200 per year.

    So yeah, I'm uninsured now because all I was doing was paying money to a company that consistently denied me health care, even still, with a max benefit with essentially zero upside.

    Now that things are changing, I'm okay with that. I'd welcome universal healthcare too. One simple reason, and it would be this way for pretty much everyone, you really wouldn't see the difference. It would come out of your paycheck just like an insurance premium. Heck, I'm even for people who want to put extra money down, like an extra $500+ per month who want more exclusive coverage. They can have their private clinics for all I care. I just think that everyone deserves health care, and that it should be a right and for those that want to spend the extra, a priveledge.
    I think this is great response. And I have to agree. I remember when I was in school, I was supposed to be covered by my dad's insurance that he paid for through his work. Which was Blue Cross, Blue Shield, supposedly one of the top providers. But it was always a pain to go to the doctors because half the time they said I wasn't covered. It was a constant battle with the insurance company that was supposed be covering me, but they didn't. And even though my dad paid his dues to get me health insurance, we still ended up having to pay for a lot of my bills. It was ridiculous.

    From what I have seen from documentaries on the health care systems in several different countries, Britian, and Germany for example, I would gladly pay more taxes to know that myself and my family was covered. As it is, even if you pay your dues the insurance companies can still deny you coverage. You can fight it to try and get reimbursed, but you still have to pay it initially.

    You never know what tomorrow holds, so that great job you have, that pays for your great health insurance, might not be there. Then what are you going to do?

  15. #55
    Pandaren Monk Klutzington's Avatar
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    I laugh at all the people who complain about how much doctors make. Do you want to make that much? Become one. It takes 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school and AT LEAST 3 extra years of residency to earn a salary of over 50k.

    I think many of you could not handle the stress of being an MD, or handle the schooling. I bet most of you complain about the cost of health insurance because you made horrible choices in your life and chose to earn a pointless degree, not earning very much money.

    It is not easy earning an MD. You cannot joke around in school. Generally, if you have any criminal activity in the past, you will not be accepted. You can't have behavior issues, and you need at least a 3.7GPA (and more often than not. . . way higher). It disgusts me when people complain about how much a doctor makes when they are MARGINALLY more important than many other people who make more than them (celebrities, actors/actresses/rap artists/hip hop artists.

    There are plenty of good Doctors and many corrupt ones. I'm sorry you feel the way you do when you complain about the salary of a Doctor, but they are NOT detriments to society.

    Become educated on he facts before you complain. I understand insurance companies are assholes, but when it boils down to it. . . doctors are normal people (albeit more productive and smarter) just earning a living (also saving lives).



    TL;DR - Stop complaining about doctors and their salaries/jobs, if you want to become one, then go do it.
    Last edited by Klutzington; 2012-10-06 at 09:39 PM.

  16. #56
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    Government run healthcare sucks.

    [/COLOR]

    How does it benefit me?
    Go across the pond and ask the europeans how much their care sucks.

    Also, stop being selfish. It benefits you because when you get sick and perhaps lose your insurance, you'll still be able to get care.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 05:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Hey guess what guys, we have amazing health care here! Too bad most of you can't get it huh? Yeah, that's real useful.

    Yet we still end up below average compared to, oh everyone other first world. Wonder how that happens.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 04:54 PM ----------



    This is all any one ever gives a shit about, and it's disgusting.
    It's like they don't realize they live in a society that includes more than their extended family . . . or just themselves.

    If a video game developer removed tumors from players, they'd whine about nerfing their loss in weight and access to radiation powers. -Cracked.com

  17. #57
    Public heatlh care is a boon to businesses and the economy in general too. A healthy workforce is a productive workforce.

  18. #58
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orissa View Post
    Go across the pond and ask the europeans how much their care sucks.

    Also, stop being selfish. It benefits you because when you get sick and perhaps lose your insurance, you'll still be able to get care.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 05:38 PM ----------



    It's like they don't realize they live in a society that includes more than their extended family . . . or just themselves.
    Not to mention it makes it cheaper for everyone across the board owing to the larger revenue pool.

    Unfortunately for the US, the Founders made public health a state-level issue. And as we have seen repeatedly, states do not have the income to support effective public healthcare systems in the same way that federal governments do.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    how are you taxed 50%?
    Income tax.

  20. #60
    Brewmaster The Riddler's Avatar
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    1. You lose freedom. Whenever you nationalize something, the ultimate result is that the individual citizen loses personal freedom and choice. A nationalized system sets up boards, rules, bureaucrats, and government panels that determine who gets care, how much they get, and so forth. When you have freedom, YOU decide what you get by chosing the plan and how much (or little) you want. The USA operated on entirely privatized health care for a long time and everything worked perfectly. Those who could pay bought the health care they wanted, or dealt 1 on 1 directly to providers. Those who could not pay had options through private charites, county clinics, and many other avenues. But once government stepped in to mandate Kennedy's flawed HMO law it was all over and freedom was the casualty.

    2. Economically, nationalized health care does NOT decrease costs. In fact, it INCREASES costs because you add a fourth layer to the cake. Before Kennedy, a person dealt directly with the provider (1 on 1 relationship). Then HMOs forced everyone into MO plans and it became 3 parties (individual, provider, insurer) which increased costs. With universal mandated insurance ownership it will become Individual/Provider/Insurer/Government. It is not possible for such an additional layer to do anything except increase costs.

    3. The moment any government mandates hit, it will screw up the entire private market and make any and all private care virtually unaffordable except for the very wealthy. Today you can go to ANY oil change shop you want and get an oil change and fluid service for 19 bucks. That works because it ISN'T covered by insurance, and competition means that all the shops have to charge affordable prices or no one will use them.

    But imagine what would happen if the government stepped in with "ObamaOil" and mandated that all auto insurance companies now had to cover "preventative care" for the car including oil changes. The result would be rapid and catastrophic for consumers. Oil changes would shoot up in cost to 150+ dollars per service. You could only get an oil change from a specifically mandated location. And you'd STILL have to pay a $20 "co-pay" for the service on site.

    So before government intervention, you could get an oil change any place you wanted, any time you wanted, and it only cost you 19 bucks. AFTER government intervention, you have to follow a schedule, go to a specific place, the 'cost to the system' is now 8X higher, and it STILL costs you 20 bucks out of your pocket.

    That's exactly what happens to a nationalized health care system. You have less freedom, fewer choices, it is more expensive, and you as the consumer don't save a single plug nickel on the deal. It's poison. Pure poison.

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