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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    Ah, the good old days of patch 4.0. Power Word: Shield absorbed about as much as Heal healed for, AA/A was trash because Smite was the only thing that stacked Evangelism, Penance sucked, and Prayer of Healing did too. But disc priests couldn't go holy because PW:B absorbed 40% and was on a two minute cooldown, and holy didn't even have a buffed Divine Hymn.

    Power Word: Barrier only reduced damage by 30% prenerf. Penance was the same as ever for the whole expansion. AA/A was still popular, even amount high end guilds, with Smite. Smite was still a cheap spell to cast. Prayer of Healing was stronger in 4.0 than it was for the rest of the expansion. It ate a 15% blanket healing nerf to both Disc and Holy because of the raw numbers Holy could put out (and they were really, really high).

    PW:S was pretty not good though. Although it cost almost nothing in mana at the time.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianjosel View Post
    Power Word: Barrier only reduced damage by 30% prenerf. Penance was the same as ever for the whole expansion. AA/A was still popular, even amount high end guilds, with Smite. Smite was still a cheap spell to cast. Prayer of Healing was stronger in 4.0 than it was for the rest of the expansion. It ate a 15% blanket healing nerf to both Disc and Holy because of the raw numbers Holy could put out (and they were really, really high).

    PW:S was pretty not good though. Although it cost almost nothing in mana at the time.
    The first change to Barrier was changing it to 30% damage decrease, before it actually absorbed damage. Atonement was only good for Heroic Halfus until they nerfed it. It was not a popular spec otherwise. Holy was buffed way before Disc, so high end guilds just had priests go holy. Do you forget the Paragon Sinistra kill that only had Holy Pallies and Holy Priests healing? Method's kill soon after was the same other than adding 1 resto shaman.

    They nerfed PoH after the class was buffed and fixed because it was at a horrible state at cata launch. I really don't understand why you are trying to argue it wasn't.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Its dead easy to solve the problem: Allow archangel to be used without evangelism at 10% and then each stack of evangelism can add 3%. We achieve a better equalisation of the atonement vs no atonement playstyle, but without nerfing disc and without screwing around our rotation.

    I strongly disagree with you. We are mana limited so HPM is a big thing and it really does matter in most encounters. For example think of Feng. His epicenters in P1 are a major source of healing for disc, but they come every 30s. You can use spirit shell for the first and archangel for the 2nd and have a big CD ready every time. Modelling the fight and testing it myself tells me ignoring archangel is a 8% drop in HPS and 13% drop in HPM.

    I am not sure you have done justice to the rotations of the other healers, by picking the right secondary stats/talents. Obviously I won't bother comparing my own personal experience, because the difference in throughput I am experiencing could be due to gear choice and talent choice issues, but when I calculate it as objectively as I can (I am not that familiar with shaman healing) is that we are 15% or so behind paladins and 20% behind shamans in stacked healing. Monks are disgustingly OP atm, so I am sure they will be nerfed.

    This is assuming a 5 person PoH, which is practically non existent. A burn phase on elegon, 2nd boss in the dread approach and that is it I cannot think of other encounters where you are hitting more than 4 ppl per PoH average. All other encounters have spread out mechanics or worse the constant damage is uneven.

    Paladins and shamans, have cheap ways to produce a lot of healing, while saving most of their mana for bursts. They can maintain much high HPM averages. Since all healers are mana limited at the moment, the gap is magnified. Remember that PoH is slow and hits only a few targets, while all other healers have powerfull instant or fast ticking raid wide HoTs. The result is bursts are healed very rapidly by these classes, but due to the uneven nature of PoH and the high amount healed per target, disc just does not get as much from the bursts as these classes do, unless we pre-stack absorption. That means our HPM is even lower than expected.

    This is another reason why using archangel is essential. IF you just think about it. Penance on the boss on aoe healing is essential in itself, even if you dont end up popping archangel.

    We are back to where we were a long time ago. Our healing is only competitive in a narrow niche and our purpose in fights is to bring good cooldowns. The healing style that we need to adopt for maximal performace is also frankly terrible. No synergy just clashes.

    If you are happy being a tank healer or a CD whore in 70% of fights and don't care about competitive healing then disc is ok. Otherwise its not. That is my personal experience. It is possible that having proper gear and proper consumables and an organised raid might change things, but I doubt it.

    I am almost certain that after raiding starts my fears will be proven correct. Disc priests will continue to be useful, but those of us who like to heal competitively with disc will be disappointed and why, when the fix is so easy....

    Aside from that you just can't replace aegis stacking with spirit shell. Disc really suffers when we can't keep aegis up and we already have the illuminated healing from paladins screwing up with aegis by being absorbed first and messing up our timings. Spirit shell refreshing aegis really is a really needed change that will finally bring some synergy into disc healing. You can't possibly argue that it is not needed.

    ========================================================================================== ===========
    I was wrong about divine star, its healing is divided by the number of targets to a maximum of 4. Thus its not worth using on few targets and on 20 targets its just 5% more than PoH in HPS. The main advantage is that its healing comes really fast and is uniform, which circumvents a major issue with disc.

    Prayer of mending is not as good for disc as it is for Holy. It does not get the chakra buff and it does not benefit fully from mastery. Its useful enough and I glyph it but it is not a big priority for disc. Penance on the boss on the other hand is extremely good. Three smart heals and the same mana efficiency as PoH with 5 stacks of evangelism or better if aegis does not get absorbed.
    I don't even know what to say here. These are wild generalizations about the other healing classes, and speculation of the future disc raiding. Whatever your arguing in this thread, it seems to be working in your favor because a post just went up in the us beta threads quoting you specifically. It also seems that your "rebuttals" have (just as I said they would) sway the community into thinking that I'm somehow untrue in the 'battle between me versus you.'

    Everything I've said has been information I think should be shared because I'm coming from an open mind and considering variables that you didn't account for in your initial posts. I've also taken careful steps as to not directly invalidate your claims or hurt your feelings because this thread, to me, is more of an exchange of musings, not an instructional absolute "disc sux" or "disc is broken and needs to be fixed". I never make claims in absolutes without accounting ALL possibilities, and I never thought this thread was some sort of battlefield.

    I would encourage you to investigate what's going on with the other healers, or maybe reroll as one of them. I'm not going to illustrate everything in your post that was outright false, instead I'm going to share my spreadsheet. Heads up, it's a complete mess, but you can see exactly what I'm calculating. Including the aoe rotations I set up with the other healing classes, which do actually take into account glyphs, talents, and other variables because I play them at a competitive level.

    Links to stuff:
    My Spreadsheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvJj-jd14m-hdGd3TmxNYmdKUFhGMXNxTWF5N1BoRFE
    my take on other aoe healing classes: us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6413263607?page=16#320
    the new thread that sparked this post: us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6607191347

    How to mess with my sheet because it's way more convoluted than Crzd's beautiful work
    -Messing with the numbers in the main sheet, row 2 will change all the other numbers everywhere. If you want to turn off the raid buffs, you're going to have to change the formulas in row 3
    -the other healing classes are loosely illustrated at the bottom. I was only concerned with their aoe output, so I did the crit, mastery, and haste in their estimated spells column as a stand alone. The results of the rotations are loosely laid out in the aoe page. Now, the 'rotations' that each class is doing was calculated at that 10% haste value. With differing values of fitting in that extra chain heal or healing touch, you're going to have to redo the formulas on that page. I did a few of them as alternative sample in the aoe healing thread I linked above and it wasn't gamebreaking.
    -the single target page is simply a comparison to me to see how holy and disc are scaling. This was for my benefit to see if holy mastery would ever overtake disc. But at these low gear levels, the hps and hpm of rapture cannot be ignored.
    -the evangelism page is an odd one. Because holy fire, penance, and smite change by evangelism stack, you can alter the values in the B column to change the overall hps and hpm of a particular rotation. If you want to change the values accounting for them without archangel running, or using a different spell, you're going to have to modify the C column yourself.

    I know it's a mess, but eventually I'm going to script in dropdowns and button toggles for the buffs and spells in rotation. For now, it gets the job done for me, and I have other stuff to worry about with the upcoming release of an expansion.

  4. #104
    Battle? I don't see how this is a battle. Its a discussion. You think the difference between us and other healing classes is acceptable. I disagree. Even the difference you do describe to me is far too much.

    I think its good for everyone to hear both sides and decide for themselves. I have pointed out certain things about disc, which I think are correct and I have suggested very reasonable fixes that will both add synergy to our heals, improve our game play and give us more options and customisation on the way we heal. The penance nerf was an absolute disaster for disc in my opinion and I am glad that people got to hear my reasons why. I hope that it will prompt blizzard to make the fairly minor changes that will greatly improve disc, but I am not that optimistic.

    If you think I am wrong about the other classes, I accept that I am not as knowledgeable as you might be about some of them. I know paladins pretty well since I have one, but I haven't played my shaman or druid long enough to be confident with them.

    Thank you for posting your spreadsheet, I rerun the analysis the way I think it should be done:

    I don't think your formula for PoH is correct. You are doing basevalue*(1+mastery)*(1+crit)*(1+0.3*crit). Which does not have the correct behaviour. The correct formula is

    basevalue*(1+crit*(1+0.9*(1+mastery))+0.3*(1+mastery)), which brings PoH to 223904.1541

    so PoH spam is 98936.44956

    My value for PWS with your numbers is a tiny amount higher, but I used it instead of yours, so PWS-PWSx5 spam is 98656.78775. This is slightly lower HPS due to the very high crit rate, but of course HPM is higher by 4.6%.

    Now lets compare a no cascade no spirit sequence, which is artificial of course, since it does not involve spirit shell or cascade. I will do those later.

    You have incorrectly calculated penance return from evangelism. The first tick adds an evangelism stack and the other 2 ticks benefit from it.

    Code:
    				
    AA			1.35786652	Holy fire
    			1.35786652	PWS
    	1	BT	1.574337994	Penance
    		BT	1.967922493	PoH
    			2.263110867	PoH
    			2.263110867	PoH
    			2.263110867	PoH
    	2		1.35786652	Holy fire
    			1.35786652	PWS
    	3	BT	1.574337994	Penance
    		BT	1.967922493	PoH
    			2.263110867	PoH
    			2.263110867	PoH
    			2.263110867	PoH
    			2.263110867	PoH
    			1.35786652	PWS
    	4		1.810488693	Penance
    AA		BT	1.967922493	PoH
    AA			2.263110867	PoH
    AA			2.263110867	PoH
    AA			2.263110867	PoH
    AA			2.263110867	PoH
    AA			2.263110867	PoH
    AA			2.263110867	PoH
    AA			2.263110867	PoH
    Code:
    Healing			
    PoH	PWS	Penance	Holy Fire
    17	3	3.4	2.33
    19			
    			
    Total:	4964887.989		
    			
    HPS:	100634.5552		
    						
    			
    Mana			
    PoH	PWS	Penance	Holy Fire
    17	3	2.413333333	1.9
    			
    Total:	270754		
    			
    			
    HPM:	18.33726552
    A 10% improvement in HPM and a 1.7% improvement in HPS over pure PoH spam. Even with the unreasonable (in my opinion) assumptions you have made i.e. 5 targets per PoH, zero overheal and just 10k spirit in full hc end of 1st gear. PoH being party limited suffers from greater OH and miss rate than smart targeting heals (this includes penance). I honestly can't think of more than 2 encounters where such a situation occurs and even then its only in a small part of the fight.

    When those assumptions are not made we are looking at a 5% improvement in HPS and a 12% improvement in HPM like I expect.

    The 10% improvement in HPM alone makes AA mandatory.

    If we add cascade to the sequence assuming all 15 targets hit and 60% return (due to the fact that the raid is stacked over a circle with the radius of healing rain). This is what we get:

    Code:
    			1.35786652 	Holy fire		1.35786652
    			1.35786652 	PWS		2.71573304
    	1	BT	1.574337994	Penance	1.574337994	4.290071035
    		BT	1.180753496	cascade	2.75509149	5.47082453
    		BT	1.967922493	PoH	4.723013983	7.438747023
    			2.263110867	PoH	6.98612485	9.70185789
    			2.263110867	PoH	9.249235717	11.96496876
    			2.263110867	PoH	11.51234658	14.22807962
    	2		1.35786652	Holy fire      		15.58594614
    			1.35786652 	PWS           		16.94381266
    	3	BT	1.574337994	Penance	1.574337994	18.51815066
    		BT	1.967922493	PoH	3.542260487	20.48607315
    			2.263110867	PoH	5.805371354	22.74918402
    			2.263110867	PoH	8.068482221	25.01229489
    			2.263110867	PoH	10.33159309	27.27540575
    			1.35786652 	PWS	11.68945961	28.63327227
    	4		1.810488693	Penance    		30.44376097
    AA		BT	1.180753496	cascade	1.180753496	31.62451446
    AA		BT	1.967922493	PoH	3.148675989	33.59243695
    AA			2.263110867	PoH	5.411786856	35.85554782
    AA			2.263110867	PoH	7.674897722	38.11865869
    AA			2.263110867	PoH	9.938008589	40.38176955
    AA			2.263110867	PoH	12.20111946	42.64488042
    AA			2.263110867	PoH	14.46423032	44.90799129
    AA			2.263110867	PoH	16.72734119	47.17110216
    			2.263110867	PoH	18.99045206	49.43421302
    			2.263110867	PoH	21.25356292	51.69732389
    Code:
    			Healing				
    			PoH	PWS	Penance	Holy Fire	cascade
    			17	3	3.4	2	2.25
    			18.75				
    							
    PoH	123,521	223904.1541	Total:	5841207.451			
    HF	30,495	40825.22231					
    	882		HPS:	112988.5845			
    PWS	101,676						
    penance	70,202	91340.7767					
    cascade	323061.0975	420341.2552

    PWS/cascade/PoH produce 110k HPS, so archangel produces a 2.3% improvement in HPS

    This seems a bit complex to pull off but its not really. As long as you keep the sequence in your mind its easy to pull off. This is of course not really our max HPS rotation, because that involves spirit shell, which does change things. When spirit shell is added that is when the complexity becomes unmanageable.

    I can't be bothered to repeat the modelling for this. Spirit shell adds another 5k HPS or so to the rotation and takes the archangel bonus back down to ~2%. Notice that adding cascade has a bigger effect. The reason is that adding spirit shell throws everything out of synch, which is an excellent example of what I am talking about.

    Looking at what you have done for the other healers, I don't think you are right, you have not modelled their major cooldowns, so I think your calculations are not really appropriate. Especially with holy priests and holy palas, I think you really are way off the mark.

    All in all far looking at your spreadsheet has convinced me that you have not fully analysed the potential of each class and that your model is too simple and incomplete to accurately compare the different healing classes. I really don't have the time right now to recalculate everything in detail for each class and as I said I don't know shamans and druids well enough, but it seems that my original assessment was accurate. I think disc needs a 5% ish buff to throughput, either with what I suggested or in any other way that will remove the clutter and add synergy. I think that will bring us back to the sweet spot, that we had before penance got nerfed.

    Archangel is still mandatory, even more so in cases where you have periods of low healing and high healing alternating, which is pretty much the case in any encounter.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2012-09-18 at 12:12 AM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    I think disc needs a 5% ish buff to throughput, either with what I suggested or in any other way that will remove the clutter and add synergy. I think that will bring us back to the sweet spot, that we had before penance got nerfed.
    throughput, and i'm hearing, mana regen. What this this penance nerf you keep mentioning? The only nerf I recall was adding 2 seconds to the cooldown awhile back. Was there something nerfed on the Beta?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    throughput, and i'm hearing, mana regen. What this this penance nerf you keep mentioning? The only nerf I recall was adding 2 seconds to the cooldown awhile back. Was there something nerfed on the Beta?
    Havoc12 is talking about offensive penance no longer providing 3 stacks of Evangelism.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Brianjosel View Post
    Power Word: Barrier only reduced damage by 30% prenerf. Penance was the same as ever for the whole expansion. AA/A was still popular, even amount high end guilds, with Smite. Smite was still a cheap spell to cast. Prayer of Healing was stronger in 4.0 than it was for the rest of the expansion. It ate a 15% blanket healing nerf to both Disc and Holy because of the raw numbers Holy could put out (and they were really, really high).

    PW:S was pretty not good though. Although it cost almost nothing in mana at the time.
    This is kind of a dumb thing to argue about, but Penance and Prayer of Healing's Divine Aegis proc effect both got buffed mid-tier 11. You're right on Power Word: Barrier, though.

  8. #108
    Sorry, this is going to be one of those posts

    Math Stuff (Skip if you don't understand)
    I had something about your PoH formula earlier, but I think I deleted it in a proof read with stuff that was sounding too negative. In your formula, you appear to be separating the normal aegis value, and then accounting for the crit+crit aegis value in a later variable. The 0.9 constant is aegis (if I'm reading your stuff right), which means you're treating aegis like it still "double dips" on critical heals. Unless something has changed, this is not the case. The aegis from a crit heal is twice the strength of a normal heal, unlike the cata three times strength. I think there was a blue post on this somewhere saying this is to discourage aegis stacking in every scenario.
    Also in your formula, your crit modifier portion adds 1 making a value of 2.323 before multiplying it by crit, then adding a flat 1. I believe this is incorrect behavoir. If you do want to split up the aegis from the prayer of healing spell, you could separate it like this: base_value*(1+crit%)+0.3*(1+mastery%)*(1+crit%) because the aegis doesn't double dip anymore, so it should benefit from crit in the same way as a non-crit.

    As to why our PW:S values differ, that puzzles me. My base value formula is 19428+(1.871*spellpower) and the scaling is only affected by mastery, so base_value*1.47
    Are you multiplying PW:S by crit or something? Maybe you're using the value of spellpower in inner will, but I doubt it because your mana regen in your sims shows that you're using the mana cost in inner fire.

    AOE and HPM
    And about your sims, I don't agree that your using the correct value of PoH either :P so the hps will be off. Even if it is, the archangel rotation is such a small boost of sustained hps (1.7% sustained you say), which is what I've been trying to get out to the community since I made that vid. Because no math was being talked about, MrJoePriest who doesn't understand the percents would think that using archangel is this huge, significant boost to his healing. But in reality, they are so close to the same in terms of sustained hps that you can "choose" to consider Archangel "optional".

    But you're heavily using leaning on healing per mana. That makes sense argumentatively, but in your models your healing per mana percents are so drastically far apart because you're modeling a perfect rapture timing and using borrowed time rotationally. 1.) Weakened Soul is still 15 seconds, and none of the spells you modeled are making use of Soul Warding, so these PW:S targets your picking can't always be the tank. 2.) Even if it was the tank or someone who is taking consistent damage, there is no way to ensure that your rapture is going to proc perfectly every 11.69 sec and 12.59 sec that you've allotted for yourself. 3.) Using borrowed time rotationally with penance every time isn't something I wanted to model because rapture returns are so unpredictable, so I've intentionally left PW:S out of my "sustained aoe rotations".

    Also, from a practical standpoint, max sustained aoe means you can't stop rolling PoH to drop an instance shield on someone because 4 other people will die. This is more of a 10 raider vs a 25 raider perspective, so I don't really want to get into it. But that's more or less the justification as to why I'm ignoring rapture in my models for maximum (I can't state this enough, maximum) aoe hps sustained. Even if "sustained" means 1 minute and oom.

    I also don't agree with how you modeled cascade (again, don't be negative :P). Healing rain is a 20 yards in diameter, so the max bounce % would be closer to 50%. And, this would diminish greatly as each bounce moves towards the people in the middle (remember it can't visit the same person more than once, and tends to the outsiders first). Either way, Halo is the spell that scales the best with archangel, but in my head if max sustained hps means clumped up hps, divine star is the better choice regardless. And as said previously, it's about the same as PoH, so I didn't mess with it in my model.

    Using HPM can be a good factor under consideration, but for consistency in the amount of time you have to cast spells within the tight windows and timers in an AA rotation will change pretty drastically depending on spell choice. And for modeling healing, this number will go off the rails when you introduce differing spell haste values. So I take any of the percentage increases and decreases you're suggesting with a heavy grain of salt. I know you're going to say something about how long until we oom is a factor, so let me say in advance that all of these "rotations" we're modeling will oom us in a minute and a half at this gear level. If we dip lower into the proposed gear levels you had in some of your earlier math, it's less than 1 minute to oom. Most of the stuff I'm modeling, it's just to compare the hps across the classes. They're all going to oom super fast at this gear level, so how they handle mana and how we handle mana should (in my opinion) be separated from the hps comparisons. That's not to say ignore it completely though. That's why early on I stated that PoH is a great filler because of it's mana cost compared to the other similar fillers (chain heal, holy radiance).

    My Potential Mistake
    Now on to something potentially encouraging for you: I didn't know that the subsequent ticks of penance are affected by the initial stack of evangelism. I hesitate to change all my numbers/values around though because I question if the stack has a short icd, or if you can miss the new 4% bonus on the middle tick of penance if you're under the effects of borrowed time or power infusion/heroism. This would indeed change my values of an archangel rotation, but to those who are reading and don't fully understand this, it wouldn't wildly make archangel rotation better. At best, we're talking under a 2% hps gain.

    The Other Healing Classes
    For the other classes, my model looks simple, but it's accurate. For holy priests, I simply did HW:Sanctuary>Unglyphed Circle of Healing>Prayer of Healing. After accounting haste and all mastery (which doesn't munch anymore), it's at a respectable 100k just like disc. Same accuracy for Holy Pallys. I show Light's Hammer>Light of Dawn at 3 Holy Power>Holy Radiance accounting for Beacon of Light as well. I also showed Light's Hammer>Light of Dawn at 2 Holy Power>Holy Radiance because lets be honest, a 3 holy power light of dawn rotation would burn holy pallys out twice as fast as Disc aoe sustained, so it's not even sustainable at this spirit level by a long shot. The more holy power dumps you can drop, the more you can stretch your mana, but at the steep cost of hps, which I tried to illustrate. For shamans, Healing Rain>Healing Stream Totem>Chain Heal is accurate. And for druids, I spent a lot of time comparing Rejuv spam to maximizing swiftmend with glyphed healing touch. At my int, mastery, and haste (which I did bump up to the next rejuv breakpoint), I found they could push more hps with healing touch spam. So I did a Swiftmend>glyphed Wild Growth>glyphed Healing Touch>refresh Rejuv also accounting for refreshing 3xLifebloom on a tank.

    You also say I didn't account for all the healing classes cooldowns. This would make sustained math crazy and way hard to understand because you'd be averaging so many variables. So in each of these other class comparisons, I used anything that was 1 minute or less (except for the druid talent). If you want to factor in every healing cooldown in the game, make sure to check their values spaced out and the combined values. Best of luck.

    Conclusion
    And to those still reading, take both of our sims with a grain of salt. There is no absolute "AA is 5% better so use it!" conclusions to be drawn here.

  9. #109
    Disc is awesome right now. If you're disappointed in your performance, use Spirit Shell more effectively. Know when big damage is coming, and 15-20 seconds beforehand start shielding the entire raid. If you're doing this and still not seeing good results, make sure whatever you're using is actually including Spirit Shell. The CD on it is just so low that it significantly changes the way you play the game.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    Disc is awesome right now. If you're disappointed in your performance, use Spirit Shell more effectively. Know when big damage is coming, and 15-20 seconds beforehand start shielding the entire raid. If you're doing this and still not seeing good results, make sure whatever you're using is actually including Spirit Shell. The CD on it is just so low that it significantly changes the way you play the game.
    Not at lvl 90, Our output is not on par with the other healers and SS dont work with AA and kinda takes away DA for the duration. Theres rarely 15-20 period where theres 0 damage, and moreover have to spam heal for 15-20 to be competitive should be enough to show something is serioiusly wrong with disc. I agree it significatly changes the way you play, but right now at 90, it aint changing for the better with our current overall state.
    I noticed that you could also meant this for 85, but then again, this thread is about lvl 90

  11. #111
    So for the 15seconds you are spamming SS via PoH your HPS will increase. If your other healers aren't making up for your "not filling health bars" for 15 seconds, then I'd recruit. Besides for those 15seconds you are providing a stop damage and fill health pools should be a cake walk.
    Last edited by Crusier; 2012-09-18 at 06:47 PM.

  12. #112
    Man I typed a big post and it just disappeared. This sucks.

    Ok @twistedmynd

    First of all PoH. It seems that you do not understand the formula. Also I think you don't understand how PoH works. My formula consists of two parts

    a) The base healing and absorb of the spell. Every spellcast adds at least that amount.
    b) The extra healing+absorb over the base added by a crit multiplied by the crit rate.

    The non crit amount is baseheal*(1+0.3*(1+mastery)). 30% of the heal gets converted into the heal due to base aegis

    When PoH heals then 30%*(1+mastery) of the amount gets turned into aegis due to the base aegis and an additional 30%*(1+mastery) gets converted to aegis due to the crit aegis. Since a crit is two base heal the amount of aegis added is 2*baseheal*0.3+2*baseheal*0.3 = 1.2*baseheal

    So a crit heals for 1.2*(1+mastery)*baseheal+2*baseheal

    The difference between a crit and a non-crit is

    delta(crit-normal) = 2*baseheal +1.2*baseheal*(1+mastery) - baseheal - 0.3*(1+mastery)*baseheal = baseheal*(1+0.9(1+mastery))

    Total PoH healing = (non crit heal) +critrate*delta(crit-normal) = baseheal*(1+0.3*(1+mastery)) + crit*baseheal*(1+0.9(1+mastery)) =>
    Total PoH healing = baseheal*(1+crit(1+0.9*(1+mastery))+0.3(1+mastery))

    This is the derivation of the formula and it was without question correct all the way up to the begining of beta just after we got the new version of spirit shell, which was the last time I tested it. Note that although people think that PoH scales extra from crit. It actually scales less than any of our other heals.

    Its easy to understand why. The crit bonus of aegis applies to the entirety of a normal heal. Not so with PoH. Non crit PoH also has 30% as absorption. On a crit the heal part more than doubles just like all other spells, but the 30% base absorption just doubles. Overall PoH has a lower crit multiplier than all our other heals. Rather than scaling well with crit PoH scales worse with crit that any other spell in our arsenal. Crit has never been a good stat for PoH, people were just looking at it the wrong way. They were ignoring the fact that the non crit healing of PoH also has 30% as aegis.

    My formula predicts than the aegis to heal ratio for a crit will be 1.2*(1+mastery)*baseheal/(2*baseheal) = 0.6*(1+mastery)

    If you are telling me that crit PoH no longer applies base aegis, then that is an absolute disaster for the crit scaling of PoH. It means that PoH will now a crit multiplier of just 2, which is what other spells have without aegis. If that is true

    If that was the case then a crit would do 2*baseheal+0.3*2*baseheal*(1+mastery) = baseheal*(2+0.6*(1+mastery)). This is exactly double the non crit heal.

    The ratio of aegis to crit would then be 0.6*(1+mastery))/2 = 0.3*(1+mastery) so exactly half what we were getting before.

    The final formula would then change to the formula to

    Total PoH healing = baseheal*(1+crit(1+0.3*(1+mastery))+0.3(1+mastery))

    This would have removed practically 0.5*crit% from the healing of PoH, making it a very sizeable nerf.

    Now let us check the formula to see if its true.

    My formula predicts than the aegis to heal ratio for a crit will be 1.2*(1+mastery)*baseheal/(2*baseheal) = 0.6*(1+mastery)

    We can check easily if this is correct. I went and tried it to see if this is true. In shattrath with a ton of buffs I got 43805 PoH crit, which applied a 19126 aegis.

    I have 45.54% mastery so I expect the ratio to be 0.6*(1+mastery) = 0.6*(1+0.4554) = 0.87324.

    19126/43805 = 0.43662, which is exactly half of what we got before. Meaning that it is indeed true that PoH crits no longer apply base aegis so the crit multiplier of PoH is now just 2, just like any other spell without aegis. The new formula for PoH would thus be

    baseheal*(1+crit(1+0.3*(1+mastery))+0.3(1+mastery)) and this is accurate right now in game.

    Your formula however is still completely wrong

    The correct value for PoH is now 215188, while you predict 222,034 with your base*(1+mastery)*(1+crit)*((crit-1)*0.3+1). You can tell this is completely wrong because it applies both crit and mastery to the base value of PoH, which simply cannot be right. It also applies both mastery and crit to the 0.3*base heal which is aegis and we simply know that this is not possible.

    So let calculate the value of a crit based on your formula. We simply have to use crit = 1 then all heals will be crits and your formula will be equal to the crit amount of PoH.

    We get base*(1+mastery)*2. Which is equivalent to the whole amount healed by a crit mulitipled by mastery.

    Let us see what you actually predict. My experiment tells us that a 43805 crit applies 19126 aegis, which is a total of 62 931. A 43805 crit comes from a non crit heal of 21 902.5.

    My formula tells us that a crit will be base*(2+0.6*(1+mastery)). Your formula says base*(1+mastery)*2

    21 902.5*(2+0.6*(1+0.4554)) = 62 931 spot on.

    2*21 902.5(1+0.4554) = 63 753, which is wrong.

    Fortuitously at this level of mastery 2+0.6*(1+0.4554)=2.87324 and 2*(1+0.4554) = 2.9108, which are reasonably close.

    At 20% mastery the correct value is 2.4 while your formula calculates 2.72, which is wildly inaccurate.

    Basically your values are only a little off, because by accident the formulas come at their closest at 0.45 mastery. After that they diverge again.

    For PWS our values differ slightly due to premature approximation on your part.

    As it turns out then the situation is slightly worse than I thought (not much because my calculations were with just 6% crit), but your values are off by about 3% and mine was even worse off. Redoing the calculation with the proper value of PoH this time gives us:

    Archangel:

    Code:
    Healing			
    PoH	PWS	Penance	Holy Fire
    17	3	3.4	2.33
    19			
    			
    Total:	4799290.716		
    			
    HPS:	97278.02269
    PoH spam: 95085 HPS

    PWS/5xPoH spam: 95136.23424 HPS


    A 2.7% HPS and 11% HPM improvement over PoH spam. A 2.2% HPS, 6% HPM improvement of PWS/PoH spam

    Cascade/PoH/PWS with archangel

    Code:
    Healing				
    PoH	PWS	Penance	Holy Fire	cascade
    17	3	3.4	2	2.25
    18.75				
    				
    Total:	5677789.089			
    				
    HPS:	109827.5242
    Without archangel:

    Code:
    PoH	PWS	cascade
    21	2	2
    		
    		
    Total:	5562992.95	
    		
    HPS:	106955.5577
    2.7% more HPs and 8% more HPM with archangel.

    Rapture: You're looking at constant heavy d amage. Rapture proc practically on CD is guaranteed and every PWS will be used. Since the tank takes extra damage I can use it on a dps instead of the tank when I want to cast PWS slightl earlier and still get the rapture proc. You can't leave stuff out of your rotation because its tough to model and then say you are accurate. Chaining PWS with penance is easy and natural, since rapture procs under sustained damage are not a problem. My modelling of cascade is very accurate. Even if the raid is stacked closely you can expect to have the tank and maybe a couple of melee further than 20 yards from the raid. Cascade bouncing off them can actually heal for a larger amount than 60% despite the raid being mostly stacked in one spot. An excellent example is tsulong. I often pull off several 70%+ or more cascades because I bounce it off the tank and melee. So my model is definitely correct

    Also, from a practical standpoint, max sustained aoe means you can't stop rolling PoH to drop an instance shield on someone because 4 other people will die. This is more of a 10 raider vs a 25 raider perspective, so I don't really want to get into it. But that's more or less the justification as to why I'm ignoring rapture in my models for maximum (I can't state this enough, maximum) aoe hps sustained. Even if "sustained" means 1 minute and oom.
    Sorry but this is one of the most outrageous things I have ever heard. You are keeping people who have 300k health alive with 30k PoH hits every 2.5 seconds but you don't have time to use PWS? They would take 25 seconds to die from damage that can be just safely outhealed with PoH. It can be shown mathematically that even if the damage is just past the point where its healable by PoH, you not only have time to cast PWS, its actually better to do so. The reason? Unequal healing (hello mr crit) and unequal damage (hello mr damage reduction cooldown or selfhealing class). PWS helps to normalise uneven health bars and it is essential in delaying deaths (remember damage is unhealable) for as long as possible. Its certain that someone will spike lower than the others because he got no crits or god bad luck with the damage rolls. Rather than having no time for it, you NEED PWS to save him.

    No encounter requires you to sustain max healing for very long. IF they did you would need more healers, maintaining good HPM however is critical in increasing the amount of time you can remain casting. High damage phases alternate with lower damage phases where you can regen, or the enoucnter has regen mechanics. During those lower damage phases you have to heal efficiently and pace yourself so you can save mana for the hectic phases. This is another area were disc suffers. If the damage is low then there is no guarantee that aegis applied by PoH will be used up. In other words PoH operates at 65-70% efficiency and not to mention its party limited. All other classes have high HPM smart heals, which they can cast while renerating mana.

    The fact that the sustained damage phases are not very long makes including CDs in the calculation even more important. You cant seriously suggest that the contribution of AW or GotaK, healing tide or divine hymn to sustained HPS can be ignored. They are even more improtant because the burst phases are not very long. You can't just leave critical factors out of your calculations to make them easier.

    So no your model is not accurate. It is very inaccurate. You did not model the best rotations for disc, not by a long shot. Even at 50% cascade is twice the healing of PoH and its instant cast that can be chained with PWS. PWS is critical for maintaining max HPS and HPM. IF you don't add it your model is simply invalid.

    All in all what you have done is taken the baselines of the various classes and compared them. You then assume that the baselines are proportional to real max HPS. This is just not true and on top of that it actually ignores the healing patterns of the encounters in the tier. You are just modelling for an abstract situation that has very little relevance to the real world. I mean how can you leave divine hymn hymn out of hte picture. I routinely get 10-15% of my healing from it. [edit]25-35% was an error. that is for spirit shell[/edit]

    All sims must be taken with a grain of salt, when they don't model for the damage patter of a real fight. Ignoring archangel is not an option disc has right now if they want to heal competitively. In real terms AA is even more important, because you have low damage phases, where PoH is inefficient since aegis may not be absorbed.

    Even a 3% gain in HPS and 8% gain in is important, but in real terms overheal and not hitting 5 targets with PoH eat away at its efficiency boosting the value of AA massively.

    AA is not as important as it was before, but it's still mandatory to use it. The nerf served no purpose except to make a clunky gameplay even clunkier and to nerf disc when our output was already low.

    I know you really want the easier rotation to be better. I want that too, but its not. AA is needed end of story. If people find it too complicated they can ignore it, but I bet you any money that the top of the rankings will be heavily populated by the AA users.

    Your calculations don't show that disc sustained HPS is equal to other healers. All they show is the max HPS rotation for disc (including everything: PoH, PWS, cascade, inner focus, power infusion, spirit shell) is still lower than the baseline of other classes.

    There more information we get, the clearer it becomes that disc is undertuned. Yes we are awesome tank healers and have great CDs, but our performance leaves much to be desired and we are stuck with a really clunky gamestyle without any synergy between our spells.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2012-09-23 at 05:51 PM.

  13. #113
    Stood in the Fire Kirse's Avatar
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    I'm sure that you both have the best of intentions, but I'm getting the impression that all this work is going beyond the point of being productive (as entertaining as the math war is). With level 90 just around the corner you will have much more accurate numbers to work off of, and your time will be better spent. Maybe give yourselves permission to relax for 2 weeks or so? Or not of course, it's up to you, but it's pretty hard to let go of a debate one it begins

    I'm very excited to see what you two come up with after MoP is released, and to see if either of you are swayed the other way
    "Healing is a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos. All the healers try to gobble all the marbles up. Disc priests take the marbles off the board."

  14. #114
    Pardon me, but isn't the entire point of discipline that it excels at absorbs in exchange for throughput? The gist here seems to be that "Disc needs to have throughput on par with x healer" yet x healer doesn't have anything near the absorption capabilities as discipline.

    If a healer has top throughput coupled with top absorbs, would it not create a hideously overpowered class?
    Healers generally trade one thing for another, so I don't see discipline standing out here.

    Also, trying to accurately math out healing is virtually impossible. Things vary greatly in the dynamic raid environment.

  15. #115
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApoEff View Post
    Pardon me, but isn't the entire point of discipline that it excels at absorbs in exchange for throughput? The gist here seems to be that "Disc needs to have throughput on par with x healer" yet x healer doesn't have anything near the absorption capabilities as discipline.

    If a healer has top throughput coupled with top absorbs, would it not create a hideously overpowered class?
    Healers generally trade one thing for another, so I don't see discipline standing out here.

    Also, trying to accurately math out healing is virtually impossible. Things vary greatly in the dynamic raid environment.
    That might be a viable arguement if disc wasn't way below other healers in overall HPS (Heals+absorbs). People are factoring both.

  16. #116
    Paladins also have pretty good absorbs now. Illuminated healing their mastery leaves an absorb behind after every heal. They also have pretty powerful single target healing and great aoe healing without having to use chakras. The reason why disc has traditionally slightly lower HPS is because absorbs have less overheal. The key however is slightly not 10-15%.

    In fact the buff to illuminated healing is a big headache for us, because it makes it tough to get aegis absorbed in a low damage phase. Remember that the smallest absorb gets eaten up first.

    In general disc operates at a low efficiency. Especially with multiple paladins in the raid.

    Who says we are mathing out healing. The purpose of the math is to explain how our healing spells behave, not to mathematically model every fight. Its not impossible to do it, its just pointless. Everything you need to know can be inferred from simpler models that don't require so much effort.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    That might be a viable arguement if disc wasn't way below other healers in overall HPS (Heals+absorbs). People are factoring both.
    But they should have low hps when compared to other healers, no? Other healers can't do what they do; the closest comparison would be pallies and their absorbs are not at all on par with what disc can do.

    The trade-off is: disc specializes in absorbs at the cost of lower throughput. I don't see how that means they need to be buffed.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by ApoEff View Post
    The trade-off is: disc specializes in absorbs at the cost of lower throughput. I don't see how that means they need to be buffed.
    If a paladin is capable of 100k hps, and a disc priest is only capable of 80k hps in absorbs, that's not okay. It means a) disc will scale badly and b) disc will be sat if the absorbs are not critical; they would grab the paladin for more healing.

    Has to be the same, or as close as they can get it. The real question is; Is the disc priest using spirit shell to his highest potential? Disc priests are easily the hardest healer to play in MoP.

  19. #119
    If a paladin is capable of 100k hps, and a disc priest is only capable of 80k hps in absorbs, that's not okay. It means a) disc will scale badly and b) disc will be sat if the absorbs are not critical; they would grab the paladin for more healing.

    If the pally is doing 100k hps and the disc is doing 80k in hps and absorbs then the absorbs more than make up that realistically speaking, small difference.
    a) I'm not sure that it can be said, with any certainty how disc, or any one else for that matter, will scale in the as-yet-unreleased expansion.
    b) Disc has assured itself a raiding spot specifically because of the absorbs. We both know that 'more healing' isn't what disc is brought for anyway and they don't get sat for the lack thereof.

    Has to be the same, or as close as they can get it. The real question is; Is the disc priest using spirit shell to his highest potential? Disc priests are easily the hardest healer to play in MoP.

    Why does it "have to be the same"? There's always been a cycle of stronger/weaker healers for every tier. There can never be absolute equality, never has been, never will be. And I'm sure its particularly hard to balance shielding.
    Using Spirit Shell to its highest potential is on the disc priest as is the learning curve.
    I still don't see how any of this translates to "disc needs a buff."
    Last edited by ApoEff; 2012-09-20 at 02:59 AM.

  20. #120
    Pandaren Monk Slummish's Avatar
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    I think the problem boils down to healer evolution. Increasingly, since TBC, we have seen mana regeneration becoming less and less of a factor in playstyle. Blizzard has changed this. It's in the same vein as wanting tanks to play a more active role in both their mitigation CDs and health regen. Tanks used to worry about having enough health, enough avoidance and being able to maintain threat.

    It was not at all uncommon in TBC for a healer to chug mana potion after mana potion during one fight. (They didn't used to have an out-of-combat CD). During the Illidari Council, it was nothing for me to go through 6-10 mana pots in one attempt and I was the best-geared holy pally on the server. This all changed with Wrath. Mana became far less of an issue and healing costs were renegotiated to work on one mana potion and maybe an innervate. Then we were given the passive regen effects provided by pally and mage skills. But even then, rarely was running out of mana a problem.

    By the time Cataclysm came along, no one gemmed or enchanted for mana or regen. It was a non-issue.

    Blizzard has decided to return to its roots and give us something else to think about other than spamming heals. They have made mana consumption a key factor in raiding once again. Remember "wand for mana!," in vanilla?

    The people that seem to be complaining the most about discipline mana consumption also seem to be the people that hold up WotLK and Cata as the yardstick for how the game should be played. Raiders born during these xpacs had it easy during this era on the mana-using end of the experience.

    Problem is, this time around, our issues can't be solved with stacks of Mana Injectors, passive mana feeding and the judged Seal of Wisdom. Blizzard has painted itself into a corner with the number of available ways we have to fill our mana pools during a boss fight and now the player is having to pay the price.

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