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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Brilynn View Post
    Worried now?? I've been worried since the very beginning of this madness.
    They've shown they are willing to hotfix. We may know, or certainly suspect, there is a problem. But Blizzard seems either horribly afraid to return priests to the "main" healer, or is genuinely incompetent, or both, as I tend to think. Either way, no point in worrying about it now. It's too late to make major changes , and only THIER numbers will make them act.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    [...]only THIER numbers will make them act.
    If the recent Best Buy Q&A is to be believed, then Blizzard attributes disc priests' under performance to not understanding "the nuances of Spirit Shell."

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    Good. I miss holy.
    +1 lol

  4. #144
    Unless ppl are in cutting edge progress guilds I doubt disc will be benched. You also always have the option of switching to holy for those fights were disc is not useful. Its sad though that is looks like there won't be any changes for disc for some time to come. I will be changing between a holy spec and disc spec based on the fight, but tbh although I like the new concepts that blizzard brought in, disc feels like a struggle right now, mainly because of just a couple of little things. Let SpS refresh aegis, un-nerf penance and let AA be usable without evangelism at 10%. The rest we can live with. Its that easy and it will make a humongous impact on our game play. Instead of that we have people advocating that we can fix our clunky gameplay by dropping a little HPM/HPS or who are "unconvinced" that disc needs anything.... Its enough to make one /facepalm.

    [edited] removed inapppropriate comments [/edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    If the recent Best Buy Q&A is to be believed, then Blizzard attributes disc priests' under performance to not understanding "the nuances of Spirit Shell."
    Can you provide a link for that please?
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2012-09-22 at 11:22 PM.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Can you provide a link for that please?
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22nuances+of+s...+and+%22wow%22

  6. #146
    I think he means they are waiting to see what uses for spirit shell the player base will come up with.

  7. #147
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApoEff View Post
    Yes, I'm serious.
    I am aware of how absorbs and heals are tracked.
    I do know that this isn't Wrath.
    You're welcome to re-read my comments where I discuss what I think and why.



    If you aren't in a top guild, then none of this affects you in a meaningful way; if you are; they'll bring one of your alts.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-21 at 02:42 PM ----------



    It's frustrating (not to mention annoying) to have one's opinion dismissed out of hand because one hasn't thought about it enough or because one most likely didn't bother with beta. Maybe you're just not as spot-on as you think you are.

    Anyway, I wished you well in your endeavors so have the courtesy to not be so patronizing.
    I read your comments. They came across as you not understanding what HPS is and how it is calculated. The HPS of a disc priest is calculated on from their healing and the damage absorbed. And their overall healing done and hps numbers compared to other healers in the MoP beta logs have people worried about the state of Disc. You think it is ok that Disc's actual healing throughput is lower because they have absorbs to make up for it. But what we are saying is the absorbs are not making up for it.

    And btw you should take your own advice. Your comments pretty much showed a you didn't understand what we were saying or you were completely ignoring it. You replied to me twice and to others basically saying, "Its ok if their HPS is low because they have absorbs", even after I and others explain that the absorbs are being accounted for. So if a another class is doing 100k hps and a disc is doing 20k hps(in heals+absorbs), by your logic that is ok because Disc has absorbs even though the numbers are showing the absorbs really aren't doing much. Yea...that isn't ok.
    Last edited by Freia; 2012-09-23 at 01:01 AM.

  8. #148
    WoL and Recount showed a radical difference for my last disc run although both counted spirit shell. Recount had my hps and absorbs much, much higher.

    Which one is right? If it's WoL then I'm quite shocked at how low the healing was.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Junnia View Post
    WoL and Recount showed a radical difference for my last disc run although both counted spirit shell. Recount had my hps and absorbs much, much higher.

    Which one is right? If it's WoL then I'm quite shocked at how low the healing was.
    World of Logs is probably the correct one.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I read your comments. They came across as you not understanding what HPS is and how it is calculated. The HPS of a disc priest is calculated on from their healing and the damage absorbed. And their overall healing done and hps numbers compared to other healers in the MoP beta logs have people worried about the state of Disc. You think it is ok that Disc's actual healing throughput is lower because they have absorbs to make up for it. But what we are saying is the absorbs are not making up for it.

    And btw you should take your own advice. Your comments pretty much showed a you didn't understand what we were saying or you were completely ignoring it. You replied to me twice and to others basically saying, "Its ok if their HPS is low because they have absorbs", even after I and others explain that the absorbs are being accounted for. So if a another class is doing 100k hps and a disc is doing 20k hps(in heals+absorbs), by your logic that is ok because Disc has absorbs even though the numbers are showing the absorbs really aren't doing much. Yea...that isn't ok.
    (NOTE: when reading this post assume that I am, in fact, factoring in heals + absorbs. Because I am.)

    Look. Our whole exchange began with your claim that disc was way behind other healers when my understanding to that point was that they are actually around 5-10% behind, according to the math guys anyway. I guess one could consider that as "way behind", but I personally don't and the reason for that is: fabulous cds and absorbs that no other healer can match. Now, if that means that disc will be a bit lower than other healers then I don't think that constitutes a "disc needs a buff because if not then we will all be sat!"

    I just flatly don't agree with that.

    Perhaps if the difference actually was "100k vs. 20k" then you might have something there. But it isn't.
    I hope that all of you who are concerned about disc performance, at a level you haven't reached yet, in a game you haven't yet actually played live, get all the changes you want.

    Aaaaaaand I'm done.
    Last edited by ApoEff; 2012-09-23 at 05:33 PM.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    I think he means they are waiting to see what uses for spirit shell the player base will come up with.
    I think a more accurate reading of that statement, given that it was made in the context of discussing healer balance, is that disc priest output is currently balanced around Spirit Shell and disc priests are under performing because they aren't using the ability as intended.

    The question is whether Spirit Shell is a well designed ability that players are just not using properly, or whether it has design issues that limit its usefulness. I think it's the latter because Spirit Shell is only good under perfect conditions. It requires you to judge to within a few seconds when spike damage will land and then stand in place for several seconds doing nothing but preparing for the spike damage. If you misjudge when damage will land, then the shells fall off or aren't in place in time. If you don't have a way to determine ahead of time exactly when the damage will land, you're screwed. If you need to move or do something else when SS is active, you're screwed. If a raid member needs spot healing when SS is active, they're screwed. Spirit Shell isn't very forgiving of even minor mistakes, and even if you play perfectly it still sucks when conditions aren't right.

    For example, the first encounter in Mogu'shan Vaults, The Stone Guard, has an ability called Overload that pelts the raid with a bunch of damage and is an obvious point at which pre-shielding with Spirit Shell would be useful. Except Overload isn't on a timer, it's up to the tanks. If your prediction of the best time for them to trigger it is a few seconds off, then your shells will either fall off the raid or not be up. If they don't trigger it at the best time, you're SOL. If a raid member needs spot healing when you're trying to stack SS, you can't provide it. If the raid picks a stack point for raid CDs other than where you're standing, you'll have to stop stacking SS to move.

    Basically, SS has a lot in common with raid CDs like PW:B. But instead of being an instant that you can cast right when you need it, you need to know 10-15 seconds ahead of time when you'll need it and then stand there doing nothing but stacking it.

  12. #152
    discipline is a healing spec, part of that is using absorption shields to mitigate damage done. There is also an option to use atonement and archangel which allows damage from smite and holy fire to heal.

  13. #153
    High Overlord Lundmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zigmynd View Post
    discipline is a healing spec, part of that is using absorption shields to mitigate damage done. There is also an option to use atonement and archangel which allows damage from smite and holy fire to heal.
    Thank you for making that clear for us I like that we have the option of healing by damage for that optional 25% healing increase.

    Ye but I'm quite confused in what Blizzard said about SS... that we're not using it correctly and that's why we're not on the same level as the other healers... PoH blanketing and maybe squeeze in a Greater Heal on the Tank 20-15s before a major Bang on the raid... what else is it to it?

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lundmark View Post
    Ye but I'm quite confused in what Blizzard said about SS... that we're not using it correctly and that's why we're not on the same level as the other healers... PoH blanketing and maybe squeeze in a Greater Heal on the Tank 20-15s before a major Bang on the raid... what else is it to it?
    I find it strange that he didn't explain further. Don't they want us to know how to play disc and enjoy the spec?
    "Healing is a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos. All the healers try to gobble all the marbles up. Disc priests take the marbles off the board."

  15. #155
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApoEff View Post
    (NOTE: when reading this post assume that I am, in fact, factoring in heals + absorbs. Because I am.)

    Look. Our whole exchange began with your claim that disc was way behind other healers when my understanding to that point was that they are actually around 5-10% behind, according to the math guys anyway. I guess one could consider that as "way behind", but I personally don't and the reason for that is: fabulous cds and absorbs that no other healer can match. Now, if that means that disc will be a bit lower than other healers then I don't think that constitutes a "disc needs a buff because if not then we will all be sat!"

    I just flatly don't agree with that.

    Perhaps if the difference actually was "100k vs. 20k" then you might have something there. But it isn't.
    I hope that all of you who are concerned about disc performance, at a level you haven't reached yet, in a game you haven't yet actually played live, get all the changes you want.

    Aaaaaaand I'm done.

    In logs on beta they aren't just 5-10% below other healers. If they were I don't think the developers would be commenting on why Disc Priests are under performing in the logs. And having absorbs is never an excuse for them to be lower numbers. Its an excuse for their actual heals not healing for as much but not for their overall Healing/damage mitigation(HPS) potential to be below other healers. They should be roughly equal.

    You should really cut out the know it all attitude btw. You don't know anyone in this thread or what progression we are at and are just talking crap at this point.
    Last edited by Freia; 2012-09-24 at 12:59 AM.

  16. #156
    @Freia, I don't think ghostcrawler actually means that people's HPS is too low because of bad spirit shell usage. I honestly think he means that there are quite a few fights, designed around use of spirit shell (especially in hc modes) and when people figure out those uses disc will be seen as essential.

    We are basically as I said CD whores or tank healers.

    He possibly also means that people haven't figured out yet that spirit shell spells absorb for much more than the actual spells heal (including crit and aegis). Plausible but I don't buy it.

    Looking at all available logs, you rarely see a player where spirit shell is not his major source of healing.

    Practically every parse you see players have 25-35% of their healing from spirit shell. I honestly don't think that GC is suggesting that they are using it badly.

    @Apoeff, disc is 5-15% below other healers and way more than that behind monks in sustained aoe HPS. That does not mean disc is actually 5-15% below in the meters. In a couple of fights disc tops the meters, in many others it is mediocre and in some fights disc is just terrible.

  17. #157
    Stood in the Fire Kirse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Looking at all available logs, you rarely see a player where spirit shell is not his major source of healing.
    Whoa whoa whoa! I'm definitely one of the players that doesn't like tripping over her own feet with all the short cds + madatory AA, but spirit shell is definitely better than you are giving credit. SS is constantly my number 1 heal these days, except for on odd fights where Aegis is #1 and SS #2. I cast it on cd most of the time, since there is a rarely a moment when AoE damage isn't being taken in a raid. SS is amazing at level 85, can't speak for 90
    "Healing is a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos. All the healers try to gobble all the marbles up. Disc priests take the marbles off the board."

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirse View Post
    Whoa whoa whoa! I'm definitely one of the players that doesn't like tripping over her own feet with all the short cds + madatory AA, but spirit shell is definitely better than you are giving credit. SS is constantly my number 1 heal these days, except for on odd fights where Aegis is #1 and SS #2. I cast it on cd most of the time, since there is a rarely a moment when AoE damage isn't being taken in a raid. SS is amazing at level 85, can't speak for 90
    Yes indeed, as I said you rarely see a player where spirit shell IS NOT his major source of healing. Basically everyone is using spirit shell and getting big numbers from it, so blizzard does not really have a reason to say that people don't use spirit shell effectively.

  19. #159
    Stood in the Fire Kirse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Yes indeed, as I said you rarely see a player where spirit shell IS NOT his major source of healing. Basically everyone is using spirit shell and getting big numbers from it, so blizzard does not really have a reason to say that people don't use spirit shell effectively.
    Ohhh pardon me, I don't know that I was having a LTR issue. I checked and didn't even see signs of editing, and you were so clear...lol don't know what I was reading or thinking. You're very right about that.
    Last edited by Kirse; 2012-09-26 at 06:13 PM.
    "Healing is a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos. All the healers try to gobble all the marbles up. Disc priests take the marbles off the board."

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    I think a more accurate reading of that statement, given that it was made in the context of discussing healer balance, is that disc priest output is currently balanced around Spirit Shell and disc priests are under performing because they aren't using the ability as intended.

    The question is whether Spirit Shell is a well designed ability that players are just not using properly, or whether it has design issues that limit its usefulness. I think it's the latter because Spirit Shell is only good under perfect conditions. It requires you to judge to within a few seconds when spike damage will land and then stand in place for several seconds doing nothing but preparing for the spike damage. If you misjudge when damage will land, then the shells fall off or aren't in place in time. If you don't have a way to determine ahead of time exactly when the damage will land, you're screwed. If you need to move or do something else when SS is active, you're screwed. If a raid member needs spot healing when SS is active, they're screwed. Spirit Shell isn't very forgiving of even minor mistakes, and even if you play perfectly it still sucks when conditions aren't right.
    That's not limitation of spirit shell per say, it's a limitation of pre-shielding. Pre-shielding is a high risk, high reward playstyle, if you don't do it right, you make a mistake, you loose; if you nail it, you win.

    SS makes pre-shielding cakewalk if you know how to do it. Personally, I find SS extremely easy to use, but that's because I did it when it was really hard. I think other people who played like me will agree SS is super easy compared to how it used to be.

    I'd bet money that the people having a hard time using SS effectively, never actually pre-shielded before DS. There's nothing wrong with that though because pre-shielding was hard as shit because you couldn't blindly spam PoH like you can in DS. In fact, pre-shielding through PoH was too inefficient. You had to use PW:S and if you wanted to hit the whole raid, you had to start EXACTLY 15 seconds before the damage hit, and it was up to the lag gods if the last shield landing before or after the damage hit. (BTW, SS doesn't 15s of lead time, its more like 8-10s). If you think screwing up a SS is bad, try blowing 50% of your mana, then watching PW:S fall off before the damage hit, then get back to me. Even worse, was that shielding the entire raid was something that you had to decide before the fight, and you could only do it once unless you had mana tide. Most of the time you were limited to 5 people.

    The "problem" with SS is that pre-shielding is no longer optional. If you're disc, you have to pre-shield, period. If you're still learning how to pre-shield, there's going to some pain involved, because it's harder than straight healing.


    For example, the first encounter in Mogu'shan Vaults, The Stone Guard, has an ability called Overload that pelts the raid with a bunch of damage and is an obvious point at which pre-shielding with Spirit Shell would be useful. Except Overload isn't on a timer, it's up to the tanks. If your prediction of the best time for them to trigger it is a few seconds off, then your shells will either fall off the raid or not be up. If they don't trigger it at the best time, you're SOL.
    That's what vent is for. I'm sorry, but failing because you're not communicating isn't a valid argument.

    If a raid member needs spot healing when you're trying to stack SS, you can't provide it.
    I agree, turning "off" healing sucks.

    If the raid picks a stack point for raid CDs other than where you're standing, you'll have to stop stacking SS to move.
    Disc has poor mobility, that's a problem with the spec in general, not with SS.

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