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  1. #41
    People need to realize, as havoc mentioned 85 means nothing, if you are expecting healing in general to play the way it does at 90 similarly to the way it plays at 85 your are dead wrong. I did some calculations yesterday to get a feel of how healing will feel at 90. Here it is. Assuming u have all raid buffs and int flask u need to drop down to 5.2k spell power, that will put you at around 7k raid buffed, which will give u similar healing potency compared to level 90 in t14 hm bis. Also to get similar regen to what that bis set has you need to drop down to 1360 spirit and not have a stacking spirit trinket, the reason for this number being so low is because on live we have twice the regen base that we will have at 90.

    So for everyone that has said 85 healing is easy, and 90 should be too, you really need to understand the scaling of spells and the way mana regen will work first.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirse View Post
    I wish I could better explain why I hate to dps as disc,.....

    I don't like having to face the boss. I found myself in heroic spine facing the wrong way due to penance (and naturally got spammed with "you are facing the wrong way) and had to turn in circles while healing until I got one to cast. I almost got thrown off Deathwing when he turned because I was disoriented, but I needed AA to survive upcoming phase. I would much rather be hitting a healing spell with that time.....
    That is why I keep saying that blizzard was so stupid to nerf penance. You never had to worry about DPSing or facing the boss. Penance would automatically rotate you. Also you just needed to cast penance twice on the boss and you had a full stack. Penance is already best used on the boss anyway and the best part was that it immediately started benefit from evangelism stacking while the spell was being cast.

    The intention was to not make DPS necessary, but in reality all they did was completely f.... up anyone who doesn't like the DPS aspect. With penance the way it did not feel like DPSing at all.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-07 at 10:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by vanityking View Post
    If healing disc is too complicated for you, try something else. I honestly will not believe that disc priest are as bad as some people think it is. I'm sure that being reduced to a dps and on-call healer is not what Blizzard intended and I think it shows how little faith you have on your disc priests. I have always been able to manage AA, Grace and bubbles while topping the meters. I love that disc healing as complicated as it is, because if you are good at it, it really shows.
    I got news for you, we have all been doing the same thing through cataclysm mate that is why we are playing disc. If you want to compare your throughput with mine, post a log and I will post mine. I was in the top 20 disc for plenty of fights and stayed in the top 100 until we cleared hc DS and I stopped bothering. I can play disc just fine.

    That does not mean disc is not in a bad situation. If you thought disc was complicated before, wait till you see it now. You have even more CDs to keep track off and most of them cannot be used at the same time. We have the most complicated and frustrating playstyle of any healer and by far the worse throughput. For example If you have built an aegis stack on two groups you can't use a full spirit shell without losing one of the two. You want to be chain casting SS through out the duration, so any aegis you have built needs to be used or it will be lost. It was fine to lose grace in cata because you could restack it with penance. It was also fine to lose your evangelism stack because you could afford to cast smite. Now if you lose any of hte two stacks you are fecked. It is going to through your entire synching off the window and cost you heaps of HPS. If you are happy with that then it probably means you are happy with any shit blizzard throws at you, so stay in your corner and let the rest of us give blizzard some real feedback so they can actually fix our spec.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2012-09-07 at 09:39 PM.

  3. #43
    For example If you have built an aegis stack on two groups you can't use a full spirit shell without losing one of the two. You want to be chain casting SS through out the duration, so any aegis you have built needs to be used or it will be lost.
    I don't understand, it seems simple to me. If they aren't taking damage but are about to, use prayer of healing with spirit shell (because it only provides shields). If they are taking damage, use prayer of healing without spirit shell (shields and healing).

    Example.

    The raid is about to take damage:

    Get up to 5 stacks of evangelism (holy fire, penance, three smites — additionally, cast a power word: shield so borrowed time makes penance even faster)
    Cast spirit shell, max out prayer of healing on everyone (four casts for a 10-man raid).

    Damage starts.

    Blow archangel.
    Cast cascade if usable.
    Cast prayer of mending.
    Cast power infusion if usable.
    Spam prayer of healing on everyone, using penance and power word: shield on targets who are dropping lower.

    When damage ends use power word: solace massively to restore mana.

    This situation could work for both single target and raid-wide damage.

    Now, if the damage isn't during isolated periods of time we have lots of abilities to our disposal. Binding heal, penance, atonement, prayer of mending, and cascade are all great abilities. When you know damage is coming in at a single target use power word: shield. Don't be scared of it's expense — you shouldn't be using spirit shell unless you're going to get a ton out of it. You can recoup your mana with solace spamming (or mindbender if the fight has reliable enemy targets), rapture (get a timer), mana tide (if you're so fortunate), potions, shadowfiend, and hymn of hope (possibly more than one). We have a lot of regeneration abilities.

    I guess this is what I am trying to say:
    I wasn't fortunate enough to get a beta pass so I don't fully know what things are like. I'm sure paladins and monks are overpowered and there needs to be some balancing. But I think that players are stumbling over their cooldowns/abilities and running out of mana because they are focusing too much on everything at once. All these spells! All these spells! Gotta use them all, all the time! Right? No. Your mana cooldowns are the only abilities that really need to be used 100% of the time. Everything should be used appropriately (not exhaustively) as a counter to incoming damage. That's what disc is all about. Don't worry about using archangel every time it's off cooldown, or spirit shell every time it's up. Just fall into the rhythm of the fight and use what you need. You're discipline, the damage is still going to go through you before anybody else.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Disc needs a number of changes.

    1) We need archangel to be usable at 10% mroe healing without evangelism and each evangelism stack should give 3%.
    2) Penance should stack more than one evangelism. Three is great, but two is ok.
    3) We need to be able to stack evangelism from some heals as well.
    4) Spirit shell needs to refresh aegis duration on the target.
    5) Inner focus needs to increase spirit shell healing.
    6) The mana cost of PWS needs to go down a bit.
    Havoc's assessment of the current state of disc is pretty spot on. I particularly like suggestions 4 and 5 here.

  5. #45
    Disc is really good to use. It saves you more mana and you have more group spells than holy. I reccomend using disc for pvp and raiding. They are very usefull

  6. #46
    I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I'm wondering if you do pre-nerf heroic raids? The damage is often so high that it blows through whatever absorbs / DA you have. And what are we going to cast when spirit shell is on CD? Wet noodle heals? Afk for mana regen? In DS pre-nerf disc has always pretty much been the weakest in throughput despite factoring in absorbs. Even on Ultraxion, whose constant ticking aoe damage highly favours DA, disc is still pretty much on the bottom as the other healers can push out much more healing.

    The other healers are getting changes to address their weaknesses, while disc seems to be going off the rail here with just a couple weeks left to MoP release.

    I think, there is a problem when average healers are healing much more and better than very strong, top performing disc healers on beta. I'm not sure if anything can be corrected at this point in time. Well I'll love to see spirit shell be an on-off button, penance giving 3 stacks and more interesting pve glyphs / less mandatory pvp glyphs, but I don't think it matters anymore.
    Last edited by Whitney Houston; 2012-09-09 at 05:24 AM.

  7. #47
    Posted this in another thread but I think it fits here:

    One thing that has been giving me a headache is how many GCDs my CDs eat now if I want to maintain peak efficiency. For a 1.25 minute slice of a fight its 35/45 GCDs used just for my CDs.
    For reference I took PI and Mindbender for spec and on this and I did not include casting PI, PS, PW:B, or IF on that list. Things I did include were 5xPW:S rapture/min (it is a mana gain currently and will be again come T15 spirit levels), SS 1/min, Smite 4/min, HF 6/min, AA 2/min, Mindbender 1/min, PoM 6/min, and penance 6/min. Since the time listed was 1.25 minutes, the 1 minute "you should use this on CD" abilities will come up twice. even if you shaved off 3-5 GCDs a minute thats still 2/3 of our time mostly casting buffs and a bit of ST healing.

  8. #48
    Stood in the Fire Kirse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanityking View Post
    If healing disc is too complicated for you, try something else. I honestly will not believe that disc priest are as bad as some people think it is. I'm sure that being reduced to a dps and on-call healer is not what Blizzard intended and I think it shows how little faith you have on your disc priests. I have always been able to manage AA, Grace and bubbles while topping the meters. I love that disc healing as complicated as it is, because if you are good at it, it really shows.
    I love how complicated it is too and it's super fun until you're doing level 85 heroic raids and unable to keep up with the cds that you need to hit to compete with other healers. I'm thinking about how this is going to affect us moving forward into level 90 content. If the content is also challenging and requires movement, pulling off enough AA, PI, IF, SS to be competitive doesn't always happen, in which case we feel rather gimped. My druid healing partner could heal on the run and was using mostly 4 spells to outdo my hps by 15% (usually we are equal). Yes I know how to maximize disc. For certain fights like heroic morchok I was performing better than him (SS eats the stomps), but on average I'm under-performing enough for him to be frustrated (he's also the raid leader).

    Considering that holy is supposedly doing better, I'm performing well I guess. We raided with an equally geared Holy Priest who did 16% less healing than me.

    We have too many short cds that interrupt healing but are required. This only matters if that time is required to move or get out of a really bad phase where intense healing is required. Again, even normal DS is a rofl stomp, I'm just noticing how i'm gimped in fights that actually require keeping up our short cds at all times. We also have to chose between SS and AA more often, so an appreciable dip in performance becomes apparent

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-09 at 08:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by vanityking View Post
    If healing disc is too complicated for you, try something else. I honestly will not believe that disc priest are as bad as some people think it is. I'm sure that being reduced to a dps and on-call healer is not what Blizzard intended and I think it shows how little faith you have on your disc priests. I have always been able to manage AA, Grace and bubbles while topping the meters. I love that disc healing as complicated as it is, because if you are good at it, it really shows.

    I am pretty sure that you're not playing on a competitive level at your max difficulty. I'm also analyzing the rotation/mechanics more than balance, since that changes.

    I'm a very good priest, not the best or most experienced around, but I have yet to meet another priest on my server who can outperform me (it's small but should still say something). I just also have a very good understanding of how scaling will work with our new short cd model, and some of my criticisms are from thinking ahead.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-09 at 08:11 AM ----------

    [ You have even more CDs to keep track off and most of them cannot be used at the same time.
    We seem to be balanced around getting the most uptime out of our cds, but that's often not possible during high movement or extremely taxing fights. I'm either outperforming other healers by a lot in 85 normal and lower content, or way behind in 85 heroic

    All this to conclude that Disc isn't that bad because the solutions are so simple. Make AA/A not mandatory or make the CD on mindbender, AA and PI longer so we're not constantly tripping over our own feet. If this happens Disc will be fine for moving forward into MOP
    Last edited by Kirse; 2012-09-09 at 03:22 PM.
    "Healing is a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos. All the healers try to gobble all the marbles up. Disc priests take the marbles off the board."

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Saladface View Post
    I don't understand, it seems simple to me. If they aren't taking damage but are about to, use prayer of healing with spirit shell (because it only provides shields). If they are taking damage, use prayer of healing without spirit shell (shields and healing).
    This is completely wrong. You use spirit shell in both cases if its up. Spirit shell is a ~25% boost in output for the expected values of mastery and crit. You use it on every opportunity, no questions asked.

    Example.....

    I guess this is what I am trying to say:
    I wasn't fortunate enough to get a beta pass so I don't fully know what things are like. I'm sure paladins and monks are overpowered and there needs to be some balancing. But I think that players are stumbling over their cooldowns/abilities and running out of mana because they are focusing too much on everything at once.....
    With that you will be at the bottom of the healing meters in a high aoe damage environment. Monks, shamans and palas are going to leave you so far behind you will embaraced to look at the meters. That is what happens to disc priests. They only synch spirit shell and maybe a little hit of archangel, because its extremely complicated to synch evetyhthing. The result is they are no where near the theoretical maximum which is already low. I see it all the time.


    Maximising spirit shell usage is nowhere near as simple as you think. First of all its not enough. You have a 25 man raid with 300k health pool. If eveyrone takes 200k damage you have a 5m damage spike. If you use it like you say you will have 6 casts of spirit shell for 170k each so about 1m absorb. 20% of the spike. If you think you will get much more healing than that you are deluded. Monks, shamans and palas and even holy priests have fast ticking or instant aoe heals that will snap up almost all of the non absorbed damage, they will also grab a lot more of the damage between the spikes as well. If it was this easy no one would be complaining.

    In most cases you are looking at 4-5 100k hits over 6 seconds or so SpS alone is like 10% of the spike, so you also need to stack aegis. You live or die by how much aegis you stack as disc. Inner focus poh leaves behind a 30k aegis per target, while a normal poh leaves a 7k aegis behind. In order to use that aegis you have to use SpS so that it overlaps with the damage phase and you need to remember to refresh evangelism or you will have to let evangelism drop. You spam ss-PoH with PI starting a little before and continuing through the damage spike (hopefully 8 hits + all your aegis), then then you pop AA to help with top up and help you stack more aegis for the next spike. You then have to keep that aegis alive if the encounter allows it otherwise you lose F...loads of healing. At 90 it takes 4-5 ssPoH hits to reach the cap so using PI with spirit shell is a must even on 10man and even more important you have to overlap it with the damage spike if possible so you can also stack aegis. This way you can squeeze a lot more healing out of the SS.

    Even more frequently you have bursts every 30 or 45 seconds or worse at irreglar intervals and then everything goes to pits.

    To summarise: No, with disc at 90 less is categorimatically not more. You have to maximise so that you are not too far behind. If you dont maximise because its too complicated you will be dead last and everyone will laugh at you and you.

    If its a tank healing fight then you win automatically. Disc and hpalas rock tank healing fights
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2012-09-09 at 04:26 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Disc and hpalas rock tank healing fights
    Uh, except that beacon > disc. Holy paladins aren't restricted by clunky grace mechanics, and they don't have to worry about atonement healing a blood worm instead of a 20% tank cause they have much more control and mana than disc at level 90.

    Other than that I agree 99.9% about the issues you raised, and I like how matthias9742 has provided some numerical evidence about our clunky gcd spamming fest.

    I think its scary how so many people only look at heavily nerfed lvl 85 raids, healers cheesing OP T12 2p set bonuses on lvl 90 raids, and hence fail to see the ticking time-bomb in MoP.
    Last edited by Whitney Houston; 2012-09-09 at 07:20 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney Houston View Post
    Uh, except that beacon > disc. Holy paladins aren't restricted by clunky grace mechanics, and they don't have to worry about atonement healing a blood worm instead of a 20% tank cause they have much more control and mana than disc at level 90.

    Other than that I agree 99.9% about the issues you raised, and I like how matthias9742 has provided some numerical evidence about our clunky gcd spamming fest.

    I think its scary how so many people only look at heavily nerfed lvl 85 raids, healers cheesing OP T12 2p set bonuses on lvl 90 raids, and hence fail to see the ticking time-bomb in MoP.
    No Spirit Shell >>> beacon. I did terrace of endless spring last night and I had twice as much healing on the tank as the pala did. Literally. He healed 3m on one tank and 0.8 in the other. I healed 3m on one tank and 4m in the other.

    Palas put beacon on a tank and spam the raid with aoe heals. That is the only way they can keep up on overall healing. Atm disc is defo the strongest tank healer there is.

    The thing is, maybe palas can keep up in HPS on tank healing fights, but you just can't beat the kind of HPS that disc can dish out when necessary. Spirit shell gheals hit for 130k almost. 130k with effectively zero overheal. We are talking 50k HPS on a single target here. I have frequently pulled numbers like these while healing the tank. Penance with a full evangelism stack heals for 90k on a graced tank if you heal through atonement. With archangel up it heals for 115k. I am serious you get nearly 40k ticks. All this is excluding crit and aegis. Inner focus gheal on a graced target with archangel up hits for 200k and puts a 60k aegis on. 260k heal... its practically lay on hands on a 30s cooldown.

    Tank healing from disc is extremely strong. On the sha of fear I found it was overkill to even cast gheal. I just used archangel and spirit shell on CD and cast mostly heal and pwS and used cascades on people who got hit by breath. 100% mana at all times, ahead of palas and miles ahead of everything else, even when I didnt get transported. Heal with SS hits for 55k on a graced target. Half the times I got transported the tank died too, because the other healers didn't realise how much damage the tank was actually taking.

    On top of that you bring pain suppression and void shift and if necessary you can take DI, which means you can cast PWS practically at will.

    Think of it PWS--penance (5 stacks)--spirit shell/PI--> gheal spam -->PWS/AA.Inner focus-->penance/gheal spam. 30s, where you are pushing 60k HPS on the tank.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-09 at 11:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirse View Post
    All this to conclude that Disc isn't that bad because the solutions are so simple. Make AA/A not mandatory or make the CD on mindbender, AA and PI longer so we're not constantly tripping over our own feet. If this happens Disc will be fine for moving forward into MOP
    Ermmm, how is nerfing us going to make disc better? Sustained HPS is a big problem for disc.

    Level 85 raids are just not a good comparison even if its without the nerf. Holy does outperform disc in many fights, but not everywhere.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2012-09-09 at 08:18 PM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Ermmm, how is nerfing us going to make disc better? Sustained HPS is a big problem for disc.
    I believe Kirse is suggesting to make some short CDs longer, and rebalance them accordingly.

    I'd be also happy to see a longer duration for some of evangelism, grace, DA. Actually, I'd accept a slight nerf to them if they could last some more time. Especially evangelism should outlast SS significantly, so that we should not have to refresh it before SS or lose the whole stack.

  13. #53
    Havoc can u explain how spirit shell is an hps increase. I am assuming its something to do with the fact that its proactive healing, because to my knowledge the formula to calculate the absorb is [tooltip x ( 1+ mastery%) x (1+ crit%)] x grace.

    From everything I've seen thus far, disc has gone back to the utility healer. They are not about massive throughput, they seem to be the healer that can run absorbs on the raid before large spikes occur, this may not put you at the top of the hps meter but when you double some ones effective hp and stop them from getting 2 shotted, you have provided as much as the healer who had to flash heal spam to stop it. I understand throughput is important however it is important to note where disc excels and where they dont, that will not only help you become a better healer, but will help with raid synergy.

    Also people please stop using level 85 healing as a benchmark it is very different that healing at 90.

  14. #54
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    Spirit Shell is an hps increase because it gets all of your mastery bonus, rather than only part of the heal(poh), or part of the heal when you crit.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    I am not talking solely from a tank hps point of view. I'm not saying disc has lousy numbers on single tank healing, after all absorbs on tanks are pretty overpowered due to <5% overhealing. If the tank damage isn't high enough, our absorbs will result in tons of overhealing for other healers.

    That said, quite a number of the harder fights require 2 tanks. For instance, I am pretty sure beacon is the superior choice in sinestra and heroic spine, especially in 10mans. Disc is too locked into their GCDs as mentioned in many earlier posts. Furthermore, our single target hps is skewed by having to build 3 stacks of grace on the target which is fairly restrictive. During progression, tank deaths arising from healer mistakes are rarely due to hps issues, from my experience its usually due to gcd management, movement, slow switching or trying maintain a certain buff. And these are some of the issues disc faces atm.

    But going this direction may derail the thread (I don't mind via PMs) so lets focus on the main issue at hand - our low sustained hps and clumsy gameplay at 90 despite busting all our CDs.

    I think, at this point in time no one is denying the usefulness of spirit shell as a somewhat-clumsy-to-set-up rallying cry, and it has the potential to be either very OP or very cumbersome. I suspect that our numbers are so low due to the devs baking spirit shell and our numerous <1 min CDs into our max "simulated" healing rotation, when in reality the live numbers deviate so much from the theorycrafted sims. Well that was their excuse with PW: Barrier anyways. Maybe spirit shell should be changed into our replacement utility spell for divine hymn, and they'll not have to balance our healing numbers so rigidly around it. And maybe one day we can actually start casting healing spells instead of having to bash all of our short CDs like a robot.
    Last edited by Whitney Houston; 2012-09-10 at 05:09 AM.

  16. #56
    Why hasn't a blue post responded to this kind of stuff even once? I'm anxious to know how blizzard feels about these issues. We're giving them what they always ask for — numbers — so when are they going to give us theirs?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Petden91 View Post
    Havoc can u explain how spirit shell is an hps increase. I am assuming its something to do with the fact that its proactive healing, because to my knowledge the formula to calculate the absorb is [tooltip x ( 1+ mastery%) x (1+ crit%)] x grace.

    From everything I've seen thus far, disc has gone back to the utility healer. They are not about massive throughput, they seem to be the healer that can run absorbs on the raid before large spikes occur, this may not put you at the top of the hps meter but when you double some ones effective hp and stop them from getting 2 shotted, you have provided as much as the healer who had to flash heal spam to stop it. I understand throughput is important however it is important to note where disc excels and where they dont, that will not only help you become a better healer, but will help with raid synergy.

    Also people please stop using level 85 healing as a benchmark it is very different that healing at 90.
    Formula for SpS (elitistjerks.com/f77/t129773-mop_beta_discussion/p8/#post2143180)

    Tooltip*(1+mastery)(1+crit)*1.3*Grace for PoH

    and Tooltip*(1+mastery)(1+crit)*(1+0.3*crit)*Grace for all other spells

    Without SpS

    Direct heals: tooltip*{1+crit*[1+0.6*(1+mastery)] }*grace

    PoH: tooltip*{ 1+crit*[1+0.9*(1+mastery)]+0.3*(1+mastery) }*grace [edit] PoH was nerfed it only applies the 30% base now and does not apply extra aegis on crit. So it is now tooltip*{ 1+crit*[1+0.3*(1+mastery)]+0.3*(1+mastery) }*grace

    Notice how the multipliers work for disc. Mastery applies to the whole crit averaged heal, instead of only crits and aegis. Also the interaction between crit and mastery is greater here than it is normally. The combined effect is about +25% for PoH and about 33% for direct heals. So it is absolutely a massive boost.

    The fact that it does not overheal much under sustained damage makes it even stronger. In other words spirit shell must be used without delay whenever the opportunity arises (i.e. big burst or sustained damage phase). Failing to do so results in major HPS loss. And herein lies the problem. In many fights you only have 45s between spirit shells to do everything else.

    TBH the main problem is not lack of time though, but downright conflict. For example you want spirit shell for each burst, but you also want aegis, and since you don't refresh aegis when spirit shell is up, that leaves you a very narrow window to set up your absorption shields. The worst bit is that unless you can keep aegis alive, PoH is extremely week, so you really have no option. Lets say after a burst when you top the raid up, you might have easily 200-300k aegis left over. What are you supposed to do with it? Let it go to waste, because you have spirit shell ready to go?

    Nothing that we have works with spirit shell, except PI. Everything else clashes. You can't use PWS and hence you lose a rapture proc, you can't use inner focus or archangel, you can't really afford to cast any spell that doesn't proc it. Losing a cast can easily cost you 100-200k healing.

    Basically you are constantly bleeding efficiency through clashes in your CDs and that is just frustrating.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-10 at 04:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Saladface View Post
    Why hasn't a blue post responded to this kind of stuff even once? I'm anxious to know how blizzard feels about these issues. We're giving them what they always ask for — numbers — so when are they going to give us theirs?
    Where were these numbers given. I have seen no one say anything. There is even disc priests saying that disc is great and we should all shut up.

    Someone also posted these logs:
    worldoflogs.com/reports/kgvrwlvr2hchw1xn/sum/healingDone/?s=630&e=1144 Feng
    worldoflogs.com/reports/kgvrwlvr2hchw1xn/sum/healingDone/?s=183&e=433 Stone Guardians

    Which are extremely misleading.

    The monks are not using uplift FFS (!!) and the priest is doing 47k HPS, which is kinda the absolute max for disc, but nothing compared to other healers. I also have a feeling this before the penance nerf judging from his spell selection and its probably before the healing rain buff too because the shaman has 10% healing from healing rain on feng (!!).

    This is an example of a disc priest performing at the max and the other healers performing at 50%.

    Someone also did a calculation on you tube about how using archangel offers no benefit to HPS and they did it completely wrong. That is only true if you use holy fire and smite only.

    Unfortunately I cant post in the US forums.... and no one else is saying anything.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2012-09-23 at 02:21 PM.

  18. #58
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    Thanks Havoc. Very interesting stuff here.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Someone also did a calculation on you tube about how using archangel offers no benefit to HPS and they did it completely wrong. That is only true if you use holy fire and smite only.
    Mrhavoc12: do not be offended

    I was pointed to this thread from the US forums thread (us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6413263607?page=16#315) because of the points you were making, and you called out my video (this video: youtu.be/4HpPUm2XRLY).

    Discrediting my entire point because I didn't model penance in my rotation really hurt my feelings, so let me personally correct that for you, or others closely following your posts:
    Without making any changes to int, spellpower, mastery, haste, crit, or any other variables in my original video, I'm going to remodel several archangel "rotations"

    -(my video demonstrated this) PoH Spam, with no archangel or evangelism: 98,110 hps
    -(my video demonstrated this) PoH spam during archangel, PoH spam, 1 holy fire (at 4 stacks evangelism), and 4 smites: 95,263 hps
    -using PoH spam during archangel, and building evangelism outside of it with 1 holy fire, 1 penance, 3 smites (in that order to maximize hps): 97,166 hps
    -using Holy Fire during archangel and off cooldown, PoH spam during archangel between holyfire, 1 penance soon as archangel drops, and 1 penance at 30.75 seconds in to get to 5 stacks evangelism: 96,182 hps
    -using only holy fire and penance on cooldown (total of 3 hf, 2 pen. 2 hf and 2 pen during AA) and poh spam: 97,597 hps
    -AA, Pen, HF, 4xPoH, Pen, HF, AA ends, 4xPoH, Pen, 1xPoH: 96,060 hps

    What this tells me is that no matter how you model it, you will be at a loss of sustained healing per second if you use archangel rotationally. That and building evangelism should never be done during an archangel, however I would take the small hps loss and build stacks during archangel because waiting until the cd is over to do those spells puts a lot of stress on the other raid healers.

    Speaking of those other raid healers, I also posted my the same gear with different classes' aoe rotations here: us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6413263607?page=16#320

    Basically, aside from me needing more up to date monk numbers, the healing classes are more balanced and equal than any other expansion release in terms of healing per second.

    The logs being linked have nobody supporting them or talking about the decisions they made with spell choices/raid strategy. Generalizations in this thread that are not being backed up mathematically at all. At best, majority of the information being presented here is educated speculation.

    So I largely disagree with your rationalization that disc is somehow in a bad place. I'll agree that many abilities clash, but this is because they are not supposed to be stacked up in a sort of rigid rotation for max healing per second.

    If you're doing things like:

    -working archangel into your rotation and on cd
    -maintaining evangelism
    -proccing rapture on cd
    -using penance on cd
    -using inner focus on cd
    -using prayer of mending on cd
    -maintaining renew on the tanks
    -using spirit shell on cd
    -making 100% sure not to overlap cd's with spirit shell running
    -gaming surge of light procs or borrowed time procs
    -fitting in mindbenders or pw:solaces

    And struggling from trying to juggle so many things, then stop trying to juggle so many things! It's a very slight dip in healing per second and healing per mana to be flexible with all these many cooldowns. Healers are not dps classes, so why are you playing like one?

    Being flexible and adapting to what the situation calls for is what being a priest is all about. Strict rotations (fluid-ness) are for the other healing classes.

    "Basically you are constantly bleeding efficiency through clashes in your CDs and that is just frustrating." Don't think of it that way. You can only manage so much before you completely lose any freedom in your spell selection (and even all that is subject to your haste levels). Adjust to the encounter.

    -Is my tank about to get wasted? PW: Shield, Innerfocus Gheal, then Spirit Shell.
    -Is my raid about to get damaged? Spirit Shell
    -Is my raid taking damage? Prayer of Mending, Spirit Shell, Archangel burst if needed
    -Is my tank bleeding out damage? Rapture, keep up grace, keep up renew, penance on cd, inner focus on cd, use divine insight and strength of soul if necessary
    -Are 2 tanks taking damage? Mending Between them, get renew on both, keep grace on both
    -No damage going out? do smites, offensive penance, holy fires, and pw:solace if you took it
    -Random damage going out? spot heal with penance, your big 3 heals, and bubble people who are low (you're going to take a hps hit here, but that's okay as long as people are staying alive)

    Hopefully this wall of text cheers some people up. Your class isn't broken, and disc is extremely powerful in capable hands.
    Last edited by twistedmynd; 2012-09-12 at 03:22 PM.

  20. #60
    Stood in the Fire Kirse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twistedmynd View Post
    And struggling from trying to juggle so many things, then stop trying to juggle so many things! It's a very slight dip in healing per second and healing per mana to be flexible with all these many cooldowns. Healers are not dps classes, so why are you playing like one?
    After reading a ton of advice from higher-end players I was trying to do it all while maintaining what I thought was the mandatory AA. It's nice to have "permission" to relax and play more intuitively, I'm not gonna lie Hope it works for me. Thanks for your math work and contributions.

    -Is my tank about to get wasted? PW: Shield, Innerfocus Gheal, then Spirit Shell.
    -Is my raid about to get damaged? Spirit Shell
    -Is my raid taking damage? Prayer of Mending, Spirit Shell, Archangel burst if needed
    -Is my tank bleeding out damage? Rapture, keep up grace, keep up renew, penance on cd, inner focus on cd, use divine insight if necessary
    -Are 2 tanks taking damage? Mending Between them, get renew on both, keep grace on both
    -No damage going out? do smites, offensive penance, holy fires, and pw:solace if you took it
    -Random damage going out? spot heal with penance, your big 3 heals, and bubble people who are low (you're going to take a hps hit here, but that's okay as long as people are staying alive)
    That's a lot of renew, which until the patch was discouraged in most cases in PVE. Should I be using it now? I have been using heal in its place and only renew when moving. Are there advantages/disadvantages beyond movement, or is this another somewhat arbitrary choice?
    "Healing is a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos. All the healers try to gobble all the marbles up. Disc priests take the marbles off the board."

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