Thread: Red sockets

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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Sareth,
    I'm one of the people behind Ask Mr. Robot. The gems you should use all come down to a bit of math, based off the stat weights. Let's look at the arms stat weights: Strength is 2.25 and Crit is 1.25. Let's say we're talking about +60 STR as a socket bonus. The math would look like this:

    --160 STR Gem and Socket Bonus = (160 * 2.25) + (60*2.25) = 360 + 135 = 495
    --80 STR & 160 Crit Gem and socket bonus = (80*2.25) + (160*1.25) + (60*2.25) = 180 + 200 + 135 = 515
    --320 Crit gem (no socket bonus) = 320*1.25 = 400

    As you can see, the winner in this scenario is the hybrid gem. But, it all depends on your stat weights. The weights we get at Ask Mr. Robot as generated from a series of tests with SimC. We wrote a program that interfaces with SimC to test out various sets of gear until it converges on a stable set of stat weights. We also follow top theorycrafters to make sure we keep up to date with the latest theory and update stat weights as needed. However, if at any point you want to put in your own weights, click on the "edit weights" button and go wild! You can also export the results to SimC to see how much DPS you'd do with that setup (click the "export") button.

    Just as an FYI, Mr. Robot also takes into account your racials and professions (and everything else possible) when suggesting gems. If you're a JC, he'll suggest your 2 special JC gems. If you're a human, he accounts for your 1% EXP bonus when using the right weapons.

    idefiler6 - if you can tell me what you don't like about the tool, we can work on improving it
    While all that is good and I appreciate the work put into tools such as this, the results I got from Simcraft really did differ quite a bit from Ask Robot. I got a crit valuation of 1.05 in Simcraft vs AMR of 1.25. At the moment I'm playing on the assumption of the 1.25 being closer to the truth.
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  2. #22
    Bigbazz - SimC gives you stat weights for your current set of gear. That's good for optimizing, so we allow everyone to edit the stat weights. It really is a tool that let's you customize almost anything So go craaaaazy!

    As for our default stat weights - we want a set of weights that is good across a variety of high gear levels. That way we can provide a nice default for everyone. Also, those stat weights drive your BiS - so if you change the weights, your BiS changes. We get those weights by running a lot of similations across a lot of gear, until we converge on a stable number, so the default is solid enough for anyone to use

    There's one more note: as people's gear level increases, we'll be running more SimC trials. If any class needs dramatically different weights at really high gear levels, we put in 2 defaults. We then check the user's gear level and automatically choose the right default for them - high or low gear level. Pretty cool, right?! As an example, we did this in Cata for mages, who needed different weights when they had a particular gear level.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post

    idefiler6 - if you can tell me what you don't like about the tool, we can work on improving it
    I act like a dick in the middle of the night, I apologize for what I said about amr. It's not a bad tool at all, the people using it incorrectly or not understanding it are what can make it dangerous for many to use. It's actually pretty good if you know how to distribute your own stat weights.

  4. #24
    Epic! Felarion's Avatar
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    I use 80str+160crit. I use simple logic More crit->More Enrage Uptime->more damage/more raging blows as fury (which is more damage after all ).

  5. #25
    idefiler - haha, no problem. I have that same problem in the mornings Anyway, I try to keep an eye on problems people have with AMR in case we can improve something, locate a bug, etc. I also try to make blog posts and guides to help people learn how to use the tool and whatnot. Anyway, Mr. Robot isn't mad at you, so you don't have to worry about him handing your name over the evil robot empire.
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  6. #26
    The answer then seems to be: grab latest version of Simcraft, download your profile from armory, select buffs and debuffs you have in raid and simulate. Use the generated stat weights to see how STR, EXP, CRIT correlate to each other ;-P
    no rocket science - crit being at ~0.7 STR? well then 2 CRIT > 1 STR since it is 1.4 > 1 ;]

  7. #27
    +160 EXP + 160 CRIT

    You cant think gemming without thinking on reforge. You need the exp and hit cap (better than str).
    If u use 160 EXP +160 CRIT you gain 160 CRIT on reforges.

  8. #28
    Icy Veins just updated their Arms guide and they say to use the same gemming model as in Cata now. Strength red, str/crit yellow, str/hit blue, reverberating (str, crit damage) in meta.

  9. #29
    Stood in the Fire
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    +160 EXP + 160 CRIT until you can get enough from gear and reforge. Exp/Crit will help you close this gap since we're at the beginning of an Xpack so limited amount of good gear, expensive top enchants and no epic gems yet. Otherwise just gem for Str/Crit until STR gets 2:1 (str:crit) or higher.
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  10. #30
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afo View Post
    I am just about to go to bed, so I am really tired and don't have the time to go into detail now. But at the moment crit outweighs str. So for yellow sockets gem all out crit, and for red sockets gem Inscribed. For more details check reliable guides, i.e manaflask.com .
    Only for fury warriors. I simcrafted my statweight, and crit was only .31 points of str as arms.

    As for what to put in red, it depends. If you put in str-expertise, its so you can reforge our of expertise when over 7.5% to get back more crit than if you just gemmed inscribed- which is str/crit, but that is more for yellow socket.

    As arms, gem pure str red, str-crit yellows, and str-hit blues.

    As fury, gem pure crit. 100%. I THINK. Last I checked it was worth over 2 points of str per crit, but that was a bit ago, things might have changed.

    To really min-max, its complicated. If a piece of gear has a yellow socket, with +60 str bonus, a inscribed gem (80 str 160 crit) is best, since its stat weight is equal to 193 str, while a red gem no socket bonus would only be 160 str.

    For a blue, its more complicated. Depends in part on socket bonus and what you get by getting that extra hit. If it means I can reforge some more points out of hit into crit, that is around 2.5x as good as getting that back in haste. Basically, as long as I can reforge those 160 points back into crit, its the same math as gemming for a yellow socket.

    The people saying EXP + CRIT are wrong, for the most part. You'd reforge out of haste/mastery to get hit/exp capped for the most part anyway, and by all accounts as arms 80 str is worth gaining over 160 crit (which is what you'd reforge another stat into to replace the 160 you have in the EXP/CRIT gem).
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2012-10-12 at 09:31 AM.

  11. #31
    Ugh, I'm currently switching back and forge a bit between arms and TG fury (yay for the reforge on expedition yak), so I don't really want to regem if I swap between the two. It can't be the end of the world if I gem mainly for crit as Arms, can it? Once I'm certain of what I'll stick to I'll of course go with the very best setup for that specc, but at this point...

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans Kezool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia View Post
    It's not a question of whether expertise is better than strength, it's a question of whether 2 expertise is better than 1 strength. Which it is. Gemming expertise/crit in reds allows you to maximise crit rating on your gear (by meaning you have to reforge fewer hit/crit pieces to hit/crit/expertise, for example). At a gear level where item budget isn't high enough to cap hit/exp from reforging gear without sacrificing potential crit in the process, gem hit/crit in blues, exp/crit in reds, crit in yellows. As your gear improves to the point where you can cap hit/exp without having to reforge out of crit, use strength hit in red. Continue to use hit/crit in blues.
    Except gemming for expertise when your gear is around Ilevel 463 (give or take alittle) doesn't result in expertise being turned into more crit, but rather mastery.

    The question, effectivly, becomes whether or not 160 mastery is better than 80 strength, to which my answer is no. If someone got the math behind it to prove me wrong, I'll gladly admit that I was.
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  13. #33
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sophos1 View Post
    crit, expertise
    Depends on if he's fury (Yes) or arms (No)

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kezool View Post
    Except gemming for expertise when your gear is around Ilevel 463 (give or take alittle) doesn't result in expertise being turned into more crit, but rather mastery.

    The question, effectivly, becomes whether or not 160 mastery is better than 80 strength, to which my answer is no. If someone got the math behind it to prove me wrong, I'll gladly admit that I was.
    Depends on the pieces you're using, but yeah, the main question is if your gear can support capping hit/exp through reforging alone without giving up crit in the process. At 469 with the pieces I'm using I am just about able to as long as I'm using expertise trinket, so switched my exp/crit gems to str/crit. If I were to use str trinket with crit proc instead, I'd have to gem at least one expertise/crit gem. Going from 463 crit/expertise belt to lfr crit/mastery belt actually pushed me further from that threshold for example, so itemisation matters as well.

  15. #35
    Herald of the Titans Kezool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia View Post
    Depends on the pieces you're using, but yeah, the main question is if your gear can support capping hit/exp through reforging alone without giving up crit in the process. At 469 with the pieces I'm using I am just about able to as long as I'm using expertise trinket, so switched my exp/crit gems to str/crit. If I were to use str trinket with crit proc instead, I'd have to gem at least one expertise/crit gem. Going from 463 crit/expertise belt to lfr crit/mastery belt actually pushed me further from that threshold for example, so itemisation matters as well.
    I suppose, but I haven't gemmed for expertise at all, ever, and I've had cap since Ilevel 462 orso. I am using one Etched gem so that's 160 hitrating, but I haven't had issues with any caps and my gear isn't magnificient.

    My point is that the whole "gem for expertise/crit" in Red only holds true at the lower levels of gear but it gets quickly redundant when the expertise turns into mastery through reforging, rather than crit.
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  16. #36
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kezool View Post
    I suppose, but I haven't gemmed for expertise at all, ever, and I've had cap since Ilevel 462 orso. I am using one Etched gem so that's 160 hitrating, but I haven't had issues with any caps and my gear isn't magnificient.

    My point is that the whole "gem for expertise/crit" in Red only holds true at the lower levels of gear but it gets quickly redundant when the expertise turns into mastery through reforging, rather than crit.
    That has been my argument against it. However, a point to consider is if you flip between arms and fury, gemming thus is actually rather useful, although a DPS loss for arms, it is less so than having str-crit gems would be for fury.

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