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  1. #81
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    Uhuh. There are many things you can remove from your diet altogether and expect weight loss as a result, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
    This is a textbook example of being logical about a problem without thinking about the context. If a lone person or " very select group" of people are advocating something, and you've paid money to learn more, you have been had.

    I hope you don't have health problems later in life as a consequence of essential nutrients that you have deprived your body. This much is obvious though, the appeal of false authorities is an extremely marketable stupidity. Just look at Dr. Oz's success. That man's supposed accolades are still under heavy scrutiny.
    The way I have formulated my current diet, I am getting what I need. Taubes' suggestions are working wonders; the funny thing his, his stuff isn't actually new. He's merely polishing off stuff that has been buried under the 'carbs good, fat bad' propaganda.

    Look how many people still believe eggs lead to high cholesterol.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  2. #82
    Legendary! Callace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    Which essential nutrients? You can get everything you need from rice, beans, and kale, if you want.
    Vitamins, minerals, essential amino acids. Does that list cover the full gamut?

  3. #83
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    Vitamins, minerals, essential amino acids. Does that list cover the full gamut?
    Pretty much. Essential nutrients aren't as sparcely found in food as most people would have you believe.

    Funnily enough, red meat and green vegetables by themselves cover the list.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  4. #84
    Legendary! Callace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The way I have formulated my current diet, I am getting what I need. Taubes' suggestions are working wonders; the funny thing his, his stuff isn't actually new. He's merely polishing off stuff that has been buried under the 'carbs good, fat bad' propaganda.

    Look how many people still believe eggs lead to high cholesterol.
    That's good. But I'm very very skeptical about the fruit part. Do you take vitamins to account for that?

  5. #85
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    That's good. But I'm very very skeptical about the fruit part. Do you take vitamins to account for that?
    Nope. You can get the necessary vitamins from meat.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  6. #86
    Legendary! Callace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Pretty much. Essential nutrients aren't as sparcely found in food as most people would have you believe.

    Funnily enough, red meat and green vegetables by themselves cover the list.
    Fair enough, but you need Vitamins A, B1-B12, C, D, E, K, Calcium, Magnesium, Iron, Potassium, Zinc, as well as salts in some quantity for optimal health. You can really get all of those out of this diet? Or do you take supplements?

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    Vitamins, minerals, essential amino acids. Does that list cover the full gamut?
    Yes. And kale alone covers almost everything you need.
    Potato.

  8. #88
    Herald of the Titans Uzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Nope. You can get the necessary vitamins from meat.
    Haha don't be ridiculous.

  9. #89
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    Fair enough, but you need Vitamins A, B1-B12, C, D, E, K, Calcium, Magnesium, Iron, Potassium, Zinc, as well as salts in some quantity for optimal health. You can really get all of those out of this diet? Or do you take supplements?
    Yup. Here's some Taubes approved foods:

    Vitamin A; Liver, Butter, Eggs, Cheddar Cheese
    Vitamin B: Tuna, Chilli Peppers
    Vitamin C: Liver, Goat Cheese, Peppers, Spinach
    Vitamin D: Mushrooms, Fish, Eggs
    Vitamin E: Broccoli, Nuts
    Vitamin K: Spinach
    Calcium: Cream, Butter, Cheese
    Magnesium:Red Meat, Fish
    Iron: Red Meat
    Potassium: Nuts, Chocolate, most vegetables and Fish
    Magnesium: Green Leafy Vegetables
    Zinc: Nuts, Oysters, Lobster, Red meat

    Funny thing is, red meat is surprisingly rich in most of these.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Fruits are full of sugar, which according to Taubes promote an insulin response that causes weight gain.

    Try having some bacon or ham instead.
    See, if you are a gym rat or go to the gym at least 3 times a week. If you take Caffeine 20-30 mins, by coffee or supplement by example Caffeine Anhydrous, before your workout. It reduces insulin sensitivities. Which allow carbs to absorb into your system properly, giving you bigger gains. So getting fast absorbing carbs, like Ramen, after a workout is a huge benefit. Especially, if you take Creatine.

    So just imagine, not working out. Those donuts with Coffee in the morning are the FIRST thing in your system. Causing storage of fats.

    Eating carbs isn't bad, its how, what, when and why you eat them is the problem. Shit like Atkins or Taubes only has it partly right. They are really restricting nutritional value over weight gain, which is a no-no in my book.

    I would rather see someone 10-15 pounds overweight while seeing a balanced meal plan. Then having someone at weight and shit for nutritional value.

    So a little to no carb diet, in my opinion, is a lazy fucking way to lose weight, it's basically self admittance you cannot control yourself. So then guess what happens when you lose your resolve? You start munching carbs you do ingest. You will put on pounds faster then you can imagine. Once you start a diet like this... if you are on it for ANY length of time, you should never come off of it.

    Diet like these are lifestyle changers, they require permanent measure, an surety of continuance. They should not be taken lightly.

  11. #91
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    See, if you are a gym rat or go to the gym at least 3 times a week. If you take Caffeine 20-30 mins, by coffee or supplement by example Caffeine Anhydrous, before your workout. It reduces insulin sensitivities. Which allow carbs to absorb into your system properly, giving you bigger gains. So getting fast absorbing carbs, like Ramen, after a workout is a huge benefit. Especially, if you take Creatine.

    So just imagine, not working out. Those donuts with Coffee in the morning are the FIRST thing in your system. Causing storage of fats.

    Eating carbs isn't bad, its how, what, when and why you eat them is the problem. Shit like Atkins or Taubes only has it partly right. They are really restricting nutritional value over weight gain, which is a no-no in my book.

    I would rather see someone 10-15 pounds overweight while seeing a balanced meal plan. Then having someone at weight and shit for nutritional value.

    So a little to no carb diet, in my opinion, is a lazy fucking way to lose weight, it's basically self admittance you cannot control yourself. So then guess what happens when you lose your resolve? You start munching carbs you do ingest. You will put on pounds faster then you can imagine. Once you start a diet like this... if you are on it for ANY length of time, you should never come off of it.

    Diet like these are lifestyle changers, they require permanent measure, an surety of continuance. They should not be taken lightly.
    People have genetically predisposed tolerance of carbohydrate intake. The point of Taubes and Atkins is finding yours, so saying that it's a self-admittance about a lack of control is both false and extremely rude.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    People have genetically predisposed tolerance of carbohydrate intake. The point of Taubes and Atkins is finding yours, so saying that it's a self-admittance about a lack of control is both false and extremely rude.
    I don't care what these guys say, and I'm claiming they are full of shit, only spewing half-truths to get people to buy their products. I don't doubt these diets work, because you can lose weight eating only Twinkies, what I am saying is what they AREN'T telling you.

    Taubes and Atkins are inferring carbs aren't something you can control, by genetics or otherwise, even in large amounts. Which is plain out false. Example, ANY Pro Athlete from Bodybuilding and Football to Tennis and Swimming. Most people want to treat these diets like Alcoholism, which is the EXACT opposite of how you want to approach these diets.

    Exercise, eating balanced meals, when to eat those meals, portion control, AND making that your live style forever, is the only healthy advice to lose weight and MAINTAIN it for LIFE.

    Because if you let's say, stay on this diet for 6 months and you lose 60 pounds. If you start sliding at all, you will gain your 60 back plus 20. It might be 5 here or 5 there, but it will come back in force. It gets harder and harder to lose it once coming off these diets too..

    You know what, I am one of those people, I know from plain ass experience. These diets aren't something to fuck around with. I weighted a MONSTROUS 400+ pounds at 6'2 frame. I got on the Atkins diet. I lost more than 200 pounds, at my lowest was 198. I was straight sickly. So my doctor told me I needed to get off that diet if I wanted to actually live. So I did. Well, guess what happened. I managed well for the first year off the diet. I gained 50 pounds in the first 6 months. The doctor told me that was normal. Then I gained another 50 in the year following. Then in the proceeding 4 years, I gained ANOTHER 40-50.

    So there I was again, back to over 350 pounds. I lost it. I wasn't eating retarded, I wasn't eating too much. SO WTF?!?! Then I talked to a personal trainer, got a hold of a proper Nutritionist.

    I again LOST over 150 pounds and was back down to 230, though a SOLID 230. Nice full muscles, I could run 2 miles in 15 minutes, and got educated in proper nutrition. That was over 3 years ago now. I have gained weight again, 70 pounds precisely, though in MUSCLE. So I am back again 300 pounds, though with a size 42 waist and 60 inch chest with 30 inch biceps.

    So yeah, go ahead tell me I'm wrong. I'm going to just sit here with my abs laughing, OK? Because nothing but your own personal experience will teach you more than my words about MY experience will.

    Sorry, the truth hurts. I know.

  13. #93
    I am Murloc! aikoyamamato's Avatar
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    I might need to try this. My strategy the last 2 years has been "go on a 1000 calorie diet twice a year to maintain my weight". I'm currently on one now. And yes, I have a personal trainer who keeps me on check.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    I don't care what these guys say, and I'm claiming they are full of shit, only spewing half-truths to get people to buy their products. I don't doubt these diets work, because you can lose weight eating only Twinkies, what I am saying is what they AREN'T telling you.

    Taubes and Atkins are inferring carbs aren't something you can control, by genetics or otherwise, even in large amounts. Which is plain out false. Example, ANY Pro Athlete from Bodybuilding and Football to Tennis and Swimming. Most people want to treat these diets like Alcoholism, which is the EXACT opposite of how you want to approach these diets.

    Exercise, eating balanced meals, when to eat those meals, portion control, AND making that your live style forever, is the only healthy advice to lose weight and MAINTAIN it for LIFE.

    Because if you let's say, stay on this diet for 6 months and you lose 60 pounds. If you start sliding at all, you will gain your 60 back plus 20. It might be 5 here or 5 there, but it will come back in force. It gets harder and harder to lose it once coming off these diets too..

    You know what, I am one of those people, I know from plain ass experience. These diets aren't something to fuck around with. I weighted a MONSTROUS 400+ pounds at 6'2 frame. I got on the Atkins diet. I lost more than 200 pounds, at my lowest was 198. I was straight sickly. So my doctor told me I needed to get off that diet if I wanted to actually live. So I did. Well, guess what happened. I managed well for the first year off the diet. I gained 50 pounds in the first 6 months. The doctor told me that was normal. Then I gained another 50 in the year following. Then in the proceeding 4 years, I gained ANOTHER 40-50.

    So there I was again, back to over 350 pounds. I lost it. I wasn't eating retarded, I wasn't eating too much. SO WTF?!?! Then I talked to a personal trainer, got a hold of a proper Nutritionist.

    I again LOST over 150 pounds and was back down to 230, though a SOLID 230. Nice full muscles, I could run 2 miles in 15 minutes, and got educated in proper nutrition. That was over 3 years ago now. I have gained weight again, 70 pounds precisely, though in MUSCLE. So I am back again 300 pounds, though with a size 42 waist and 60 inch chest with 30 inch biceps.

    So yeah, go ahead tell me I'm wrong. I'm going to just sit here with my abs laughing, OK? Because nothing but your own personal experience will teach you more than my words about MY experience will.

    Sorry, the truth hurts. I know.
    42 inch waist is fat unless you are on gear, sorry. Jay Cutler is 275 lbs with a 42 inch waist for god's sake.

    Atkins diet can work but it is hard to maintain (as most diets are) and it is no better than any other structured diet. The biggest benefit of ketonic diets is that you lose weight (not fat) very very quickly at first because your body will hold less water without glycogen in the body. This rapid weight loss will make you look more defined and skinnier if you are fairly well built to begin with and motivates a lot of people to continue. Once they get off the diet, their weight will skyrocket up as your body's water retention increases. A lot of people get depressed by this increase in weight and just give up instead of understanding what their body is doing and adjusting their diet accordingly. Ketonic diets have not been shown to lower fat stores any faster than any other diet when the calories are taken into account. But 2.5 cups of rice is a lot easier to eat than a lb of chicken so people tend to overeat carbs.

    What I will say is that low carbohydrate (but not ketonic) diets tend to work for a lot of people because protein and fat satiates hunger a lot better than carbohydrates. Protein also increases your metabolism more than carbohydrates (takes more energy to break down protein that it does to break down even complex carbs, fat taking no energy to break down).
    Last edited by jbhasban; 2012-10-07 at 08:53 PM.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    I don't care what these guys say, and I'm claiming they are full of shit, only spewing half-truths to get people to buy their products. I don't doubt these diets work, because you can lose weight eating only Twinkies, what I am saying is what they AREN'T telling you.

    Taubes and Atkins are inferring carbs aren't something you can control, by genetics or otherwise, even in large amounts. Which is plain out false. Example, ANY Pro Athlete from Bodybuilding and Football to Tennis and Swimming. Most people want to treat these diets like Alcoholism, which is the EXACT opposite of how you want to approach these diets.

    Exercise, eating balanced meals, when to eat those meals, portion control, AND making that your live style forever, is the only healthy advice to lose weight and MAINTAIN it for LIFE.

    Because if you let's say, stay on this diet for 6 months and you lose 60 pounds. If you start sliding at all, you will gain your 60 back plus 20. It might be 5 here or 5 there, but it will come back in force. It gets harder and harder to lose it once coming off these diets too..

    You know what, I am one of those people, I know from plain ass experience. These diets aren't something to fuck around with. I weighted a MONSTROUS 400+ pounds at 6'2 frame. I got on the Atkins diet. I lost more than 200 pounds, at my lowest was 198. I was straight sickly. So my doctor told me I needed to get off that diet if I wanted to actually live. So I did. Well, guess what happened. I managed well for the first year off the diet. I gained 50 pounds in the first 6 months. The doctor told me that was normal. Then I gained another 50 in the year following. Then in the proceeding 4 years, I gained ANOTHER 40-50.

    So there I was again, back to over 350 pounds. I lost it. I wasn't eating retarded, I wasn't eating too much. SO WTF?!?! Then I talked to a personal trainer, got a hold of a proper Nutritionist.

    I again LOST over 150 pounds and was back down to 230, though a SOLID 230. Nice full muscles, I could run 2 miles in 15 minutes, and got educated in proper nutrition. That was over 3 years ago now. I have gained weight again, 70 pounds precisely, though in MUSCLE. So I am back again 300 pounds, though with a size 42 waist and 60 inch chest with 30 inch biceps.

    So yeah, go ahead tell me I'm wrong. I'm going to just sit here with my abs laughing, OK? Because nothing but your own personal experience will teach you more than my words about MY experience will.

    Sorry, the truth hurts. I know.
    totally agree.
    Once you start to understand how the body works, to gain muscles, or loose fat, you realize it's more when and with what that counts, rather than the what.
    completely removing foods from a diet can work at first, but it's by no mean something for the long run, or to be healthy.

    The OP doesn't do sports, I mean, it's his choice, but eating 3k calories a day without some workout isn't something I would call healthy.

    What he forgets, is how much pressure he puts on his organs, when eating too much meat for example. Like everything, it seems to work out at first, but that's just because you don't see what's happening internally, and fucks you in the long term.

    Now, I don't care what he thinks, I just don't want other people to listen to the " don't eat fruits, eat bacon instead". Those phrases, can be misinterpreted and can completely ruins someone's health.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 08:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Uzi View Post
    You are looking at it too simply. YOU should study some basic chemistry. Chemicals interact with each other, they interact with energy, they interact with I don't know what. It's not as simple.
    You are looking at it too "scientifically". What does common sense tell you? What is better? An apple or sugar extracted artificially from corn?
    Look up Bergson and similar philosophers, you and most of today's society should learn from him.

    And please don't tell me to "study basic chemistry" when you claim c6h12o6 is fructose. Thank you.
    the main difference is that in fruits, you also get fibers, and oligo elements like chrome, magnesium etc that help the body to break the fructose down.
    In sodas or other crap, you don't get those and the effect is completely different.

    Also, I think some refined fructose are isotops of the real one, but don't quote me on that.
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by ragingsoul View Post
    totally agree.
    Once you start to understand how the body works, to gain muscles, or loose fat, you realize it's more when and with what that counts, rather than the what.
    completely removing foods from a diet can work at first, but it's by no mean something for the long run, or to be healthy.

    The OP doesn't do sports, I mean, it's his choice, but eating 3k calories a day without some workout isn't something I would call healthy.

    What he forgets, is how much pressure he puts on his organs, when eating too much meat for example. Like everything, it seems to work out at first, but that's just because you don't see what's happening internally, and fucks you in the long term.

    Now, I don't care what he thinks, I just don't want other people to listen to the " don't eat fruits, eat bacon instead". Those phrases, can be misinterpreted and can completely ruins someone's health.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 08:52 PM ----------



    the main difference is that in fruits, you also get fibers, and oligo elements like chrome, magnesium etc that help the body to break the fructose down.
    In sodas or other crap, you don't get those and the effect is completely different.

    Also, I think some refined fructose are isotops of the real one, but don't quote me on that.
    HFCS is somewhat of a misnomer. It is really glucose and fructose (and some other saccharides depending on the grade) in their natural states. What they do is take glucose syrup and convert some of the glucose into fructose. Fructose is sweeter than glucose but both are monosaccharides and can be used by the body very quickly (causes a big glucose spike). Corn syrup is no better for you than HFCS though. Table sugar, on the other hand, is a disaccharide (glucose and fructose bound together) and needs to be broken down by the body which takes time and results in a smaller glucose spike. Now, people tolerate glucose spikes differently and it could be unhealthy for someone with resistance to glucose to have a large spike as it can cause increased level of glucose in the body. This increased level can fuck up a lot of things and makes you feel like shit (I use to have type 2 diabetes so I know what it feels like).

    The skin of apples are nutrient dense, low on calories, and high in fiber. The insides of apples, however, are really not much better for you than corn syrup as it is pretty much pure fructose.

  17. #97
    If bread and fruit is bad, then what do i eat!?

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by blikz1 View Post
    If bread and fruit is bad, then what do i eat!?
    Bacon, apparently. That is why we are going to have a bacon shortage next year, too many people trying to be healthy!

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by jbhasban View Post
    42 inch waist is fat unless you are on gear, sorry. Jay Cutler is 275 lbs with a 42 inch waist for god's sake.

    Atkins diet can work but it is hard to maintain (as most diets are) and it is no better than any other structured diet. The biggest benefit of ketonic diets is that you lose weight (not fat) very very quickly at first because your body will hold less water without glycogen in the body. This rapid weight loss will make you look more defined and skinnier if you are fairly well built to begin with and motivates a lot of people to continue. Once they get off the diet, their weight will skyrocket up as your body's water retention increases. A lot of people get depressed by this increase in weight and just give up instead of understanding what their body is doing and adjusting their diet accordingly. Ketonic diets have not been shown to lower fat stores any faster than any other diet when the calories are taken into account. But 2.5 cups of rice is a lot easier to eat than a lb of chicken so people tend to overeat carbs.

    What I will say is that low carbohydrate (but not ketonic) diets tend to work for a lot of people because protein and fat satiates hunger a lot better than carbohydrates. Protein also increases your metabolism more than carbohydrates (takes more energy to break down protein that it does to break down even complex carbs, fat taking no energy to break down).
    Jay Cutler is a monster and comparing me to him is frankly, absurd. Though thanks for the Ego boost. Like comparing a college freshmen to Micheal Jordan. An insult to Mr. Olympia...

    Also, being massively fat as I was, I have extra skin. I have roughly 20-30 extra pounds of it. So that plays a huge role. Not only being like roughly 5 inches taller.. you got to be kidding me. Good one.. I almost fell for it.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    Jay Cutler is a monster and comparing me to him is frankly, absurd. Though thanks for the Ego boost. Like comparing a college freshmen to Micheal Jordan. An insult to Mr. Olympia...

    Also, being massively fat as I was, I have extra skin. I have roughly 20-30 extra pounds of it. So that plays a huge role. Not only being like roughly 5 inches taller.. you got to be kidding me. Good one.. I almost fell for it.
    Skin doesnt weigh much.... you have extra fat under that skin. I had extra skin (went from 300 lbs to 180 at 5'9") before I had surgery to remove it. Guess how much weight I lost. Maybe a pound at most and that's because the doctor removed some stomach fat as well while he was in there.

    Skin is a really really thin layer. Since you lost so much weight, you should be able to pull the epidermis away from the fat under it fairly easily (I can, though I am below 10% body fat now so the layer under it is fairly minimal as well). That small 2-3 mm layer is your skin. The rest of the stuff you can pinch is fat. BTW, being taller means your waist should be SMALLER not bigger for that amount of weight.
    Last edited by jbhasban; 2012-10-07 at 10:54 PM.

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