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  1. #41
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    OP: Brilliant post. Every monk tank who is applicable for your guide will ofc come here and say "Oh..ofc I will now totally change my style"
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Noviskers View Post
    For the Guard vs shuffle first debate: From personal experience my healers say that I am fine to heal except for the pull, so once I get everything up and rolling I am easier to heal so I use Guard first so that I can help cushion the healers while I get my shuffle/elusive brew going.
    I have to agree being a healer myself, A BM takes quite a bit of initial damage at the start of a fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    OP: Brilliant post. Every monk tank who is applicable for your guide will ofc come here and say "Oh..ofc I will now totally change my style"
    The OP was bad being just a vent with no input, there is no need to post in such a way and we've moved past that.

  3. #43
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshimiko View Post
    It generates more orbs though. My SCK goes off every .69 seconds, Keg smash locks me down for a full second. When survival is more important than damage, SCK > Keg smash(assuming you've smashed at least once)
    This! The extra orbs from using SCK have saved my butt more times than I can count (especially on the trash in Shadow Pan) when I've had a crappy healer who either doesn't heal, is slow, or doesn't properly manage their mana.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    This! The extra orbs from using SCK have saved my butt more times than I can count (especially on the trash in Shadow Pan) when I've had a crappy healer who either doesn't heal, is slow, or doesn't properly manage their mana.
    The thing is as you know, you shoudn't rely on SCK to get orbs to heal due to a bad healer. In a ideal situation where there is no need for self-healing the extra damage is what you will opt for, It really just comes down to the situation at hand though.

  5. #45
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    OP: Brilliant post. Every monk tank who is applicable for your guide will ofc come here and say "Oh..ofc I will now totally change my style"
    I shouldn't have to tell someone how to play their class. Especially players in the mid to upper 80s. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that spamming SCK over and over again isn't a good way to tank.

    I'm just getting the word out now before this becomes a wide spread practice.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I shouldn't have to tell someone how to play their class. Especially players in the mid to upper 80s. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that spamming SCK over and over again isn't a good way to tank.

    I'm just getting the word out now before this becomes a wide spread practice.
    The only "word" you're getting out is "don't be bad". That's not advice and not helpful for anyone.
    And I believe that less than 5% off all level 90 players don't really know how to play their class so I don't expect anyone I don't know to play perfectly or even good. Most players are bad.

  7. #47
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisKoe View Post
    The only "word" you're getting out is "don't be bad". That's not advice and not helpful for anyone.
    And I believe that less than 5% off all level 90 players don't really know how to play their class so I don't expect anyone I don't know to play perfectly or even good. Most players are bad.
    No, I said don't spam SCK, and learn how to play your class. There's plenty of guides available.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshimiko View Post
    Touch of Death>Blackout kick>SCK(If targets>8)>Chi Wave>Keg Smash>SCK(if targets>3)>Tiger Palm

    Saving Shields for big burst periods usually...

    Are some monks using shield without tiger palming 3 times? Personally if I'ma be using it on CD I open with Keg smash>BOK>Jab>Tigerpalmx3>Guard then move into my regular rotation. This allows Vengeance to build some - it shouldn't be a risky time for healing yet, and this lets your healers get a breather where they more than likely need it rather than right off the bat. Chi Wave I find is often stronger that early on in any case.. Guard is only a 60k shield, Chi wave is at least a 80k heal for me.
    If you're saving Guard purely for big burst, you're doing it wrong. That's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of unneeded damage you are taking just to have a 30 second cooldown ability automatically useful for simple burst. Yes, you want to save it for large damage spikes, but not at the expense of overall damage taken.

    As for the opening, we do not use TP three times prior to Guard. After that, yeah we'll have our stacks capped, but for the initial Guard, we prefer to simply get it up so we're absorbing damage. As well, ignoring boss mechanics, healing for brewmasters IS the riskiest within the first couple seconds of a fight. We rely so much on active mitigation that before we have it up, we're pretty squishy, so being able to curb that early damage with a Guard is very nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshimiko View Post
    It generates more orbs though. My SCK goes off every .69 seconds, Keg smash locks me down for a full second. When survival is more important than damage, SCK > Keg smash(assuming you've smashed at least once) Assuming you have Chi wave and Blackout kick down, no reason to Keg smash over SCK. This is assuming short fights though, where overal chi regeneration is less important and surviving is all that matters.

    Keg Smash + Power Strikes Jab weaving will generate more chi, therefor keeping your level 30 talent + bok becomes easier.

    I think blanket statements like yours is the wrong way to think about it - analyze the situation and use abilities according to what's needed.
    Keg Smash should practically ALWAYS be used before SCK, regardless of whether or not it generates more orbs, simply because the abilities that use chi are more efficient and important active mitigation than GotO healing orbs. The only exception is if you are at 3/4 or 4/5 (though I've never seen a brewmaster who's talented like that... most use Power Strikes) chi, in which case, SCK is better simply because you do not waste chi.

    I mean, yeah, the orbs can save your butt, but at least for me and my experience, they're more of a "hey this is good, try and get these!" thing than a "If you don't do this, you're going to die" thing. Though optimal play will use the orbs, there are builds and stat weights that assume you don't use them that much.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-10-07 at 09:43 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    If you're saving Guard purely for big burst, you're doing it wrong. That's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of unneeded damage you are taking just to have a 30 second cooldown ability automatically useful for simple burst. Yes, you want to save it for large damage spikes, but not at the expense of overall damage taken.

    As for the opening, we do not use TP three times prior to Guard. After that, yeah we'll have our stacks capped, but for the initial Guard, we prefer to simply get it up so we're absorbing damage. As well, ignoring boss mechanics, healing for brewmasters IS the riskiest within the first couple seconds of a fight. We rely so much on active mitigation that before we have it up, we're pretty squishy, so being able to curb that early damage with a Guard is very nice.



    Keg Smash should practically ALWAYS be used before SCK, regardless of whether or not it generates more orbs, simply because the abilities that use chi are more efficient and important active mitigation than GotO healing orbs. The only exception is if you are at 3/4 or 4/5 (though I've never seen a brewmaster who's talented like that... most use Power Strikes) chi, in which case, SCK is better simply because you do not waste chi.

    I mean, yeah, the orbs can save your butt, but at least for me and my experience, they're more of a "hey this is good, try and get these!" thing than a "If you don't do this, you're going to die" thing. Though optimal play will use the orbs, there are builds and stat weights that assume you don't use them that much.
    I've agreed with most of what you've said - but this is something I have to disagree with you on. Guard, at least for me, does far FAR less than Chi Wave does - thus I think getting Chi wave up with my first 4 chi is preferable - From the way you're talking it sounds like you prefer to save a healers mana over your life..but for this I argue that the healers mana should be full - or near full - thus not regening anything at the start of a fight. I'm sure there are times where I'm wrong - and I haven't raided this tier, but I've found the first 10% of fights in Dragon Soul were(for the most part) void of healing requirements. Thus using an early guard is literally helping no one. It's better to save a healers mana when she's at 95% than at 100%. I'll be honest - I don't know healers this expansion yet as I haven't played them - so if I'm mistaken in any way here I'm totally all ears.

    The Keg Smash vs SCK argument I DO understand, I see both sides of it - I just think when you're sitting with 20+ enemies, you should SCK over Keg smashing after the initial Keg Smash. In these instances - you generally are inbetween boss mechanics(looking at the Bulwark shield right now in the gate heroic) and those orbs can be used later, although some pulls I do are larger than 10 enemies - I tend to Keg smash on those on cd though.... My point was doing 1 ALWAYS over the other isn't always the best idea.

    In my eyes, getting guard up immediately is someone who's just aiming to top the charts - and not actually be helpful. In that sense, I think BoK>Chi wave>3x Tiger Palm>guard is the better way to work it, rather than the options. This is of course assuming you're using Chi Wave, too(which in it's completely over powered state I can't understand why one wouldn't, but that's another argument).

    As for the guard thing - I'm talking about bursts of damage you know you will take at regular intervals. Outdated mechanic: but Stomp(Mor'chok), Zonozz's last ball hits, etc... Maybe it's because I'm still in the mind set of infinite mana that wotlk and cata have drilled into me... if it has varied than all of what I know as a tank is outdated. Should that be the case - probably something I should learn now - before I wander into raids next week.
    Avatar given by Sonic Raindoom.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshimiko View Post
    I've agreed with most of what you've said - but this is something I have to disagree with you on. Guard, at least for me, does far FAR less than Chi Wave does - thus I think getting Chi wave up with my first 4 chi is preferable - From the way you're talking it sounds like you prefer to save a healers mana over your life..but for this I argue that the healers mana should be full - or near full - thus not regening anything at the start of a fight. I'm sure there are times where I'm wrong - and I haven't raided this tier, but I've found the first 10% of fights in Dragon Soul were(for the most part) void of healing requirements. Thus using an early guard is literally helping no one. It's better to save a healers mana when she's at 95% than at 100%. I'll be honest - I don't know healers this expansion yet as I haven't played them - so if I'm mistaken in any way here I'm totally all ears.

    The Keg Smash vs SCK argument I DO understand, I see both sides of it - I just think when you're sitting with 20+ enemies, you should SCK over Keg smashing after the initial Keg Smash. In these instances - you generally are inbetween boss mechanics(looking at the Bulwark shield right now in the gate heroic) and those orbs can be used later, although some pulls I do are larger than 10 enemies - I tend to Keg smash on those on cd though.... My point was doing 1 ALWAYS over the other isn't always the best idea.

    In my eyes, getting guard up immediately is someone who's just aiming to top the charts - and not actually be helpful. In that sense, I think BoK>Chi wave>3x Tiger Palm>guard is the better way to work it, rather than the options. This is of course assuming you're using Chi Wave, too(which in it's completely over powered state I can't understand why one wouldn't, but that's another argument).

    As for the guard thing - I'm talking about bursts of damage you know you will take at regular intervals. Outdated mechanic: but Stomp(Mor'chok), Zonozz's last ball hits, etc... Maybe it's because I'm still in the mind set of infinite mana that wotlk and cata have drilled into me... if it has varied than all of what I know as a tank is outdated. Should that be the case - probably something I should learn now - before I wander into raids next week.
    Chi Wave has a cast time attached to it, which means you are spending time (though not much per cast, it does add up) doing nothing. As well, chi wave, as a heal, has the problem of overhealing. Preventing damage in the first place is much better than healing through it, as there is no chance of overhealing and it's simply easier to manage. When you're taking burst, it's much better for you to be able to negate the damage and then focus on preventing more than healing through it and having to focus on that instead. I am not arguing for healer mana over my life, I am arguing for both. Healer mana is pretty intensive this tier, at least for the group I was raiding with, and once again, negating damage is easier than healing through it. It's better for both parties.

    In terms of Keg Smash vs SCK, once again, at least for me, preventing damage is better than patching it up with self-healing. I would still say Keg Smash on cooldown is more important, regardless of how many enemies you're facing. Also, take into consideration that if you ARE facing 20+ enemies and that Keg Smash does deal more damage, the faster you kill them, the less damage they'll do to you.

    As for people who use Guard trying to top charts... I don't get that. It helps the healers by smoothing out your initial damage. There's nothing selfish about that. That's helpful. If anything, taking more damage simply to heal through it is trying to top charts. As a tank, you are supposed to mitigate damage. Self healing is certainly a part of that, but it is FAR more efficient to NOT take damage than to take damage, then heal through it.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuse View Post
    I'm assuming you had one undergeared / bad tank and now you're blaming the class?

    As stated by several posters, you continue to dodge & parry while using Spinning Crane Kick. It's also the way to get Chi when there is an AOE group. Obviously you have to keep Keg Toss up and activate Stagger, but otherwise there is nothing wrong with it.
    No, he's more like the tank that's doing other role and going "WTF are you doing man!?" knowing they are doing wrong.

    Is like when I saw ppl using Divine Storm in single target while on my alts. I saw a LOT of pallys do that.


  12. #52
    It's a well known fact that all bad Brewmasters read these Monk forums.

    Just do what all the bad Monks do and forget that Shuffle exists. Those guys are cool, especially during big pulls.

  13. #53
    I sometimes hit SCK by mistake and I am sure others do it as well. Honestly figured people would be more upset at the DPS that wont stop using it and sit at the bottom of the damage meters.

  14. #54
    lol i thought he was just about to rage at the amount of kiting tanking i was doing last night with big packs =D

  15. #55
    But but but... it's so pretty!

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Nothing gets me more angry than seeing Monk tanks SCK-tanking. It's the dumbest thing ever, and leads to a swift death for you and your entire party.

    Listen, I understand you think that SCKing everything in sight over and over again is a great way to AoE tank, but it isn't. It's just a fast way to piss off your healer and get everyone in the group killed.

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn how to play a Monk tank. Please do this before you give all Monks a bad name.
    Keg Smash/Fire Breath is on cooldown, Guard is up, Shuffle is active. I'll SCK as much as I want.

  17. #57
    Brewmaster Jess Day's Avatar
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    SCK is your chi builder on 3+ targets if smash is on Cooldown. Normal mitigation takes priority.

    If you're complaining about brewmasters using SCK. No, just no.

    If you're complaining about brewmasters ONLY using SCK. Then sure, you have a point, but you might want to enduldge said spammers on HOW they should tank, and not just "don't do it".
    Chi Wave has a cast time attached to it
    You mean Chi Burst right? Cos Chi wave has no cast, but is also inferior to both burst and sphere in party/raids due to the jump mechanic.
    The Keg Smash vs SCK argument I DO understand, I see both sides of it - I just think when you're sitting with 20+ enemies, you should SCK over Keg smashing after the initial Keg Smash.
    Since the change to Keg Smash so it hits every target, i really don't see any argument against using Keg Smash on Cooldown. Especially when it hits much harder, and generates more chi.
    Last edited by Jess Day; 2012-10-08 at 02:30 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Jess Day View Post
    You mean Chi Burst right? Cos Chi wave has no cast, but is also inferior to both burst and sphere in party/raids due to the jump mechanic.
    Yeah that's my bad. Mixed the two up for some reason.

  19. #59
    Bad healer is bad

  20. #60
    Keep in mind that Keg Smash applies both dizzying haze and weakened blows so it really should be used before SCK and on CD.

    Also for trash Keg Smash + Glyphed Breath of Fire is amazing for reducing initial damage on a large pull and it's very high threat. Looks pretty beast as well.

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