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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Thoranar View Post
    To clear up confusion, an AoE rotation involving Spinning Crane Kick (SCK) is 3 or more targets.

    The rotation is:
    Lead off with Keg Smash (+2 chi)
    (optional) Use Rushing Jade Wind (procs Shuffle)
    Jab (only jab first if you are using Power Strikes)
    Black Out Kick
    2xSCK while picking up gift of the ox healing
    Purify Brew

    You can also choose to use guard if its a difficult trash pack or magic based.


    Rinse and repeat when Keg Smash is off CD.

    The INCORRECT rotation is doing anything while you do not have shuffle or guard up.
    I would disagree. The proper opening for a 3+ target pull should mainly be

    Pull
    Keg Smash
    Guard
    Jab (with power strikes, a combination of two SCK's and jabs without)
    Bok / RJW

    And then of course through the course of the encounter...
    PB and picking up GotO stacks as needed. EB on cooldown / when needed. Keep up active mitigation.

    The early guard allows quick mitigation allowing you to put up your Shuffle without taking unnecessary damage early as well as allow you to wait for using your first PB. Nor would I say that getting orbs should be an aspect of a rotation. They are a dynamic that we have to manage, but not rotationally. They should be used as they are needed. Same thing with PB.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2012-10-07 at 05:36 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I would disagree. The proper opening for a 3+ target pull should mainly be

    Pull
    Keg Smash
    Guard
    Jab (with power strikes, a combination of two SCK's and jabs without)
    Bok / RJW
    PB and picking up GotO stacks as needed. EB on cooldown / when needed. Keep up active mitigation.

    The early guard allows quick mitigation allowing you to put up your Shuffle without taking unnecessary damage early as well as allow you to wait for using your first PB. Nor would I say that getting orbs should be an aspect of the rotation. They are a dynamic that we have to manage, but not rotationally. They should be used as they are needed. Same thing with PB.

    No you want shuffle up before the guard. That way you can maximize the mitigation of guard. Otherwise it's going to just get blown through.

    As for orbs, that's based on your stats and playstyle.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Thoranar View Post
    No you want shuffle up before the guard. That way you can maximize the mitigation of guard. Otherwise it's going to just get blown through.

    As for orbs, that's based on your stats and playstyle.
    I have to disagree on both points. Though the guard will be strengthened, the initial guard provides a smoother beginning to the encounter and realistically, you won't take much damage between the point when you cast guard and when you cast BoK or RJW for Shuffle. As well, as I have said, if you get shuffle up first, you will take more stagger damage which means an earlier PB instead of being able to get a bit more uptime of active mitigation.

    And the orbs are consistantly a dynamic that shouldn't be part of a rotation. Stats and playstyle only change their power and the frequency to which they spawn as well as how you prefer to use them in terms of self healing (as a general heal, saved for a large it, or both.)
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2012-10-07 at 04:58 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I would disagree. The proper opening for a 3+ target pull should mainly be

    Pull
    Keg Smash
    Guard
    Jab (with power strikes, a combination of two SCK's and jabs without)
    Bok / RJW

    And then of course through the course of the encounter...
    PB and picking up GotO stacks as needed. EB on cooldown / when needed. Keep up active mitigation.

    The early guard allows quick mitigation allowing you to put up your Shuffle without taking unnecessary damage early as well as allow you to wait for using your first PB. Nor would I say that getting orbs should be an aspect of a rotation. They are a dynamic that we have to manage, but not rotationally. They should be used as they are needed. Same thing with PB.
    You want shuffle up first, this will make your guard last longer thus increasing the amount you heal yourself.

    However, if I have leg sweep up I'd put guard up first then get shuffle up before leg sweep ends. This gets the cd on guard rolling and shuffle is basically useless with stunned targets

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by TyloBedo View Post
    You want shuffle up first, this will make your guard last longer thus increasing the amount you heal yourself.

    However, if I have leg sweep up I'd put guard up first then get shuffle up before leg sweep ends. This gets the cd on guard rolling and shuffle is basically useless with stunned targets
    If you put shuffle up first, you need that self healing more. If you put guard up first, you don't as much. You sacrifice more damage taken for more healing done at the beginning of a fight.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by TyloBedo View Post
    You want shuffle up first, this will make your guard last longer thus increasing the amount you heal yourself.

    However, if I have leg sweep up I'd put guard up first then get shuffle up before leg sweep ends. This gets the cd on guard rolling and shuffle is basically useless with stunned targets
    This, and I agree on the second part as well.

    We can make a different thread to talk about why it's better, but for this thread's purpose we can both agree that some form of mitigation needs to be up (either Shuffle or Guard or both) before SCK spamming.
    Last edited by Thoranar; 2012-10-07 at 05:12 PM.

  7. #27
    Considering that the thread is about, in a more general sense, brewmasters and the effective use of active mitigation during AoE packs, this is still on topic.

    To throw out some points...

    Pros for Guard up at the beginning of an encounter:
    - Smoother damage intake at pull
    - Provides more time to bolster active mitigation before needing to use first Purifying Brew

    Cons for Guard up at the beginning of an encounter:
    - smaller guard uptime, less self healing

    Pros for Shuffle up at the beginning of an encounter:
    - more avoidance and staggered damage
    - allows for longer guard uptime, more self healing

    Cons for Shuffle up at the beginning of an encounter:
    - more self healing needed due to higher initial damage intake
    - earlier PB needed, therefore less AM up by that point

    I prefer Guard up first because of that initial stability it provides which, as a tank and a former healer, I like. Shuffle, though it provides a lot of avoidance, which is where the majority of the damage decrease happens, is still based on RNG. I prefer to begin an encounter with a constant defense, not a random one, though I am still quick to follow up with Shuffle.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2012-10-07 at 05:24 PM.

  8. #28
    I like how the OP posted the thread then hasn't come back to say anything else about what he means. That basically makes this a QQ thread instead of anything even approaching being constructive.

  9. #29
    I agree that SCK should be used for picking up groups and holding, but not alone.. it's part of a rotation just like anything else. No tank ever spams just one skill.

    I think a lot of people are still getting used to the idea of active mitigation.. that you actually have to keep yourself alive instead of depending 100% on the healer to do it for you like in the past. Back in the day, you just rolled into a group, unleashed everything you had, and that was that.. your only concern was dealing damage and occasionally re-pulling aggro, but not actually having to keep yourself alive.. merely being a tank did that for you.

    I've noticed that change just in questing (my BrM is still low-level). When I was leveling my pally, I could pull an entire village of baddies and just laugh them off. On my monk, not so much. Now, if I work on keeping Guard and Shuffle up in a big crowd, yeah.. then I'm nigh-unkillable, but it's something I'm actively having to do instead of just relying on the fact that I'm a tank.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    I like how the OP posted the thread then hasn't come back to say anything else about what he means. That basically makes this a QQ thread instead of anything even approaching being constructive.
    Just because the OP wasn't necessarily good does not mean that the thread is intrinsically bad. I've seen bad threads become great ones because of how people responded to tackle the problem that the OP is talking about. Posting about how the thread is bad is not something that will help it become good.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Nothing gets me more angry than seeing Monk tanks SCK-tanking. It's the dumbest thing ever, and leads to a swift death for you and your entire party.

    Listen, I understand you think that SCKing everything in sight over and over again is a great way to AoE tank, but it isn't. It's just a fast way to piss off your healer and get everyone in the group killed.

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn how to play a Monk tank. Please do this before you give all Monks a bad name.
    I love when people feel so strongly about an issue that they make a thread about it and PLEAD with people to stop being bad.....and then give absolutely no good information at all. It's really refreshing, not to mention helpful.

    Why don't you tell them they need to be mixing in Keg Smash more, maintaining shuffle and keeping guard up? Tell them that while they can still dodge/parry they can't "block" if they don't keep their block (shuffle) up and that reduces their survivability pretty drastically?

    Seriously, you went out of your way to make this thread, try and put something useful in it because you obviously care about the issue at hand.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Considering that the thread is about, in a more general sense, brewmasters and the effective use of active mitigation during AoE packs, this is still on topic.

    To throw out some points...

    Pros for Guard up at the beginning of an encounter:
    - Smoother damage intake at pull
    - Provides more time to bolster active mitigation before needing to use first Purifying Brew

    Cons for Guard up at the beginning of an encounter:
    - smaller guard uptime, less self healing

    Pros for Shuffle up at the beginning of an encounter:
    - more avoidance and staggered damage
    - allows for longer guard uptime, more self healing

    Cons for Shuffle up at the beginning of an encounter:
    - more self healing needed due to higher initial damage intake
    - earlier PB needed, therefore less AM up by that point

    I prefer Guard up first because of that initial stability it provides and as a tank and a former healer, I like. Shuffle, though it provides a lot of avoidance, which is where the majority of the damage decrease happens, is still based on RNG. I prefer to begin an encounter with a constant defense, not a random one, though I am still quick to follow up with Shuffle.
    You left one key part out. Guard scales with vengeance. So add that to your list of cons for using guard first. Without vengeance you're looking at maybe 60k shield. If use guard after shuffle, you've taken some mitigated hits and your guard goes up to 100K+ depending on what trash we are talking about (heroics vs. raid).

    But really both ways work. Your way, you take unmitigated hits but you have guard up allowing you to build up some chi without needing a heal. My way, I take some mitigated hits up front, take some self healing, then use a bigger guard later.

    Both ways work for heroics. If you're doing trash in vaults though, i'd recommend waiting until you have vengeance to use guard. (I use a vengeance tracker on my UI)

    And you for sure don't want to use guard first on a boss fight.

  13. #33
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    I like how the OP posted the thread then hasn't come back to say anything else about what he means. That basically makes this a QQ thread instead of anything even approaching being constructive.
    I'm currently at the doctors. I fully plan to make a lengthy response when I get home. Right now I'm just reading the responses.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2012-10-07 at 05:35 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Thoranar View Post
    You left one key part out. Guard scales with vengeance. So add that to your list of cons for using guard first. Without vengeance you're looking at maybe 60k shield. If use guard after shuffle, you've taken some mitigated hits and your guard goes up to 100K+ depending on what trash we are talking about (heroics vs. raid).

    But really both ways work. Your way, you take unmitigated hits but you have guard up allowing you to build up some chi without needing a heal. My way, I take some mitigated hits up front, take some self healing, then use a bigger guard later.

    Both ways work for heroics. If you're doing trash in vaults though, i'd recommend waiting until you have vengeance to use guard. (I use a vengeance tracker on my UI)

    And you for sure don't want to use guard first on a boss fight.
    You have one GCD between Guard and Shuffle. How much attack power are you going to get during that timeframe? It's not going to be much. Even within raids, the difference is trivial, even if you wait for vengeance to stack up. You sacrifice damage taken now for less a little later. It balances out.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2012-10-07 at 05:39 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoranar View Post
    You left one key part out. Guard scales with vengeance. So add that to your list of cons for using guard first. Without vengeance you're looking at maybe 60k shield. If use guard after shuffle, you've taken some mitigated hits and your guard goes up to 100K+ depending on what trash we are talking about (heroics vs. raid).

    But really both ways work. Your way, you take unmitigated hits but you have guard up allowing you to build up some chi without needing a heal. My way, I take some mitigated hits up front, take some self healing, then use a bigger guard later.

    Both ways work for heroics. If you're doing trash in vaults though, i'd recommend waiting until you have vengeance to use guard. (I use a vengeance tracker on my UI)

    And you for sure don't want to use guard first on a boss fight.
    You act like Guard is on a 3 min cooldown. Who care that it will only absorb 60k of damage initially. That's 60k of damage you aren't taking! But guess what, after your shield drops, use it again within 20 seconds.
    Last edited by Ragethorn; 2012-10-07 at 07:07 PM.

  16. #36
    guard up first and the damage taken is less spiky and less frontloaded. if you don't, you're essentially playing catch up trying to make up for that spike damage you just started out with

  17. #37
    As far as the OP goes, the only time I really use SCK is when Keg Smash is on CD and more mobs are joining in, or after an AoE pull to establish threat (I will pull with DH, use Keg Smash, Guard, Power Strike Jab, RJW (for shuffle/more AoE aggro), SCK (just to make sure I have aggro), then I'll fall into my normal rotation. If I have good DPS or feel like I am losing AoE threat I may throw in a SCK here and there but I don't spam it, for the most part KS and RJW are more than enough to hold aggro for me.

    For the Guard vs shuffle first debate: From personal experience my healers say that I am fine to heal except for the pull, so once I get everything up and rolling I am easier to heal so I use Guard first so that I can help cushion the healers while I get my shuffle/elusive brew going.

  18. #38
    Touch of Death>Blackout kick>SCK(If targets>8)>Chi Wave>Keg Smash>SCK(if targets>3)>Tiger Palm

    Saving Shields for big burst periods usually...

    Are some monks using shield without tiger palming 3 times? Personally if I'ma be using it on CD I open with Keg smash>BOK>Jab>Tigerpalmx3>Guard then move into my regular rotation. This allows Vengeance to build some - it shouldn't be a risky time for healing yet, and this lets your healers get a breather where they more than likely need it rather than right off the bat. Chi Wave I find is often stronger that early on in any case.. Guard is only a 60k shield, Chi wave is at least a 80k heal for me.
    Last edited by Yoshimiko; 2012-10-07 at 08:42 PM.
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  19. #39
    Dreadlord Godavari's Avatar
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    using SCK when keg smash is off cd is stupid anyway. it does less dmg than keg smash.. hmm keg smash..

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Godavari View Post
    using SCK when keg smash is off cd is stupid anyway. it does less dmg than keg smash.. hmm keg smash..
    It generates more orbs though. My SCK goes off every .69 seconds, Keg smash locks me down for a full second. When survival is more important than damage, SCK > Keg smash(assuming you've smashed at least once) Assuming you have Chi wave and Blackout kick down, no reason to Keg smash over SCK. This is assuming short fights though, where overal chi regeneration is less important and surviving is all that matters.

    Keg Smash + Power Strikes Jab weaving will generate more chi, therefor keeping your level 30 talent + bok becomes easier.

    I think blanket statements like yours is the wrong way to think about it - analyze the situation and use abilities according to what's needed.
    Last edited by Yoshimiko; 2012-10-07 at 08:49 PM.
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