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  1. #61
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Again, I fail to see how the Old Gods' corruption of other races is to be seen as anything over the Legion.

    The Old Gods can, in fact, be killed - hell, Y'Shaarj was confirmed to be 'extremely dead'.

    I have seen nothing to indicate how many Titans were on Azeroth at the time of the ordering, nor how many - if any - members of the Pantheon were there. It's stated that they waged war on them, yes, but that doesn't really say anything.

    As for the Old Gods themselves being confident in their ability to defeat Sargeras, I don't see why that matters. The vast majority of villains are overconfident - hell, it's often the reason they're killed.
    He is "dead" sure but his essence remains otherwise there wouldn't be any Sha now would there.
    It is implied the Titans wander the cosmos as a whole to bring order to chaos at any cost, some of them seem to be dispatched to scout but otherwise it was never stated that they as a race are splintered across the universe and even if not all of them were on Azeroth we know for a fact, that the Pantheon was on Azeroth, they imbued the Dragon Aspects with a portion of their power after all. The demons of the burning legion pretty much follow the strongest and over time the old gods could sway many demons to their side. I mean even Azshara and Illidan were able to convert demons to their cause.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  2. #62
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    She was nearly as strong as Kiljeaeden and Archimonde back in the WoA, she removed Neptulon and now controls the seas of Azeroth. Not to mention the old Gods empowered her.
    No she wasn't, she was nowhere near. She bested Mannoroth but not KJ.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Sargeras is a powerful corrupter in his own right.
    How so, he only broke few prisons open and gave a race of space goats what they craved.

  4. #64
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    No she wasn't, she was nowhere near. She bested Mannoroth but not KJ.
    According to WoA she was nearly as strong as one of these two uncorrupted,now she has control over the seas and is Old god empowered so as I mentioned above she should be on par with Kiljeaden.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  5. #65
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    According to WoA she was nearly as strong as one of these two uncorrupted, so as I mentioned above she should be on par with Kiljeaden.
    Can you find the actual quote? don't think I've read it.

  6. #66
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Can you find the actual quote? don't think I've read it.
    Mannoroth discovered, to his chagrin, that Azshara was far more powerful than he, and that only Archimonde, Kil'Jaeden and Sargeras could've matched her. Sundering pg. 310
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Can you find the actual quote? don't think I've read it.
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Queen_Azshara

    Azshara approached Mannoroth and demanded an explanation. Enraged by both his own failure and the questions asked by the Queen, he wanted to rip her head off, but quickly saw the error of his ways when he realized that Azshara kept inside her a power to which only Sargeras, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde would prove superior.
    Azshara was certainly powerful enough to do so. Mannoroth discovered, to his chagrin, that Azshara was far more powerful than he, and that only Archimonde, Kil'Jaeden and Sargeras could've matched her.[
    End SJW
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    How so, he only broke few prisons open and gave a race of space goats what they craved.
    Yeah, please go find me ANY instance of the Old Gods doing something more impressive than spontaneously corrupting an entire race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He is "dead" sure but his essence remains otherwise there wouldn't be any Sha now would there.
    There's no need for quotes. He's dead, period. The Sha are mere shadows cast in his dying moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is implied the Titans wander the cosmos as a whole to bring order to chaos at any cost, some of them seem to be dispatched to scout but otherwise it was never stated that they as a race are splintered across the universe and even if not all of them were on Azeroth we know for a fact, that the Pantheon was on Azeroth, they imbued the Dragon Aspects with a portion of their power after all.
    Azeroth is but one of countless worlds under the watch of the Titans. I don't see how it would even be a consideration for them to focus all of their forces in one area like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The demons of the burning legion pretty much follow the strongest and over time the old gods could sway many demons to their side. I mean even Azshara and Illidan were able to convert demons to their cause.
    Having a demon join you and having a member of the Legion join you are two different things. Not all demons are members of the Legion.

    Besides, regardless of if the Old Gods are collectively more powerful, they do not work as a unified force.
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  9. #69
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Old gods corrupt everything around them and enhance it with their "flesh crafting", pitting these creations against their enemies. They can't be really killed as seen with Y'Shaarj and C'thun. We know that at least one Titan died and the old gods themselves said many Titans were necessary to seal them,you shouldn't forget the entire Titan high council was on Azeroth. The Old gods themselves were confident they could beat Sargeras. Meaning combined the old gods should be able to kill Sargeras.
    Stopping the Old Gods is kind of like playing whack a mole. When one pops out of their swirling vortex you go beat it back inside for 10,000 years.



    Also, Y'Shaarj is dead for real. Blizz confirmed he won't ever come back to life. The Sha are his dismembered corpse, and we do kill those for real in 5.0.
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  10. #70
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Mannoroth discovered, to his chagrin, that Azshara was far more powerful than he, and that only Archimonde, Kil'Jaeden and Sargeras could've matched her. Sundering pg. 310
    Ah ye I've read that one, that doesn't really say how powerful she is in comparison to KJ and Archi, it just confirms that they're stronger. As I said there is no definite power level, but I doubt she's near KJ. Someone said she's about as powerful as the LK which I'd say is a better estimation, although she would be more powerful than LK I'd say she's inbetween him and KJ. Just my thoughts.

  11. #71
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    There's no need for quotes. He's dead, period. The Sha are mere shadows cast in his dying moment.
    And even in death he holds an entire continent hostage, that was my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Azeroth is but one of countless worlds under the watch of the Titans. I don't see how it would even be a consideration for them to focus all of their forces in one area like that.
    Because they are not really an army they are an nomadic civilization with an obsession for order. If Azeroth is any indication they don't leave Titans on those worlds but rather constructs and chosen races to Guard them, like the Dragons and guards in Ulduar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Having a demon join you and having a member of the Legion join you are two different things. Not all demons are members of the Legion.

    Besides, regardless of if the Old Gods are collectively more powerful, they do not work as a unified force.
    The Illidari used to be part of the Burning legion and so where the demons Azshara's guard and neither had a problem attacking their former employee.

    In recent times they work together in order to break out from prison, once they are out they will most likely battle each other again though.

    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Ah ye I've read that one, that doesn't really say how powerful she is in comparison to KJ and Archi, it just confirms that they're stronger. As I said there is no definite power level, but I doubt she's near KJ. Someone said she's about as powerful as the LK which I'd say is a better estimation, although she would be more powerful than LK I'd say she's inbetween him and KJ. Just my thoughts.
    Yet you shouldn't forget that was 10.000 years ago she has been empowered by the old gods an took control over the very seas of Azeroth, which means she should be on Kil'jeadens level by now.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  12. #72
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yet you shouldn't forget that was 10.000 years ago she has been empowered by the old gods an took control over the very seas of Azeroth, which means she should be on Kil'jeadens level by now.
    lol I know but that doesn't state where she is in comparison to him, so there isn't really any basis to say if she could be near him.

    I think the Old Gods not working together is also a rumour is it not? there is no confirmation that they are together or not.

  13. #73
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    lol I know but that doesn't state where she is in comparison to him, so there isn't really any basis to say if she could be near him.

    I think the Old Gods not working together is also a rumour is it not? there is no confirmation that they are together or not.
    They did work together in in WoA, so why should they stop this Alliance so long it's goal hasn't been achieved?
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  14. #74
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Ah ye I've read that one, that doesn't really say how powerful she is in comparison to KJ and Archi, it just confirms that they're stronger. As I said there is no definite power level, but I doubt she's near KJ. Someone said she's about as powerful as the LK which I'd say is a better estimation, although she would be more powerful than LK I'd say she's inbetween him and KJ. Just my thoughts.
    That depends on what she has available to her.

    Is she actually an ancient at this point?

    Is she the elemental lord of water now that she's captured Neptulon?

    How much of her pre-Sundering powers did she retain?
    "You should only install Warlords on your master hard drive. They will never be slaves." - @CM_Lore


  15. #75
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    I was referring to this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Besides, regardless of if the Old Gods are collectively more powerful, they do not work as a unified force.


    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 10:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    That depends on what she has available to her.

    Is she actually an ancient at this point?

    Is she the elemental lord of water now that she's captured Neptulon?

    How much of her pre-Sundering powers did she retain?
    Aye, too many unknowns :< Damn you Blizzard!

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And even in death he holds an entire continent hostage, that was my point.
    Then I have to say your point is rather irrelevant. Many powerful creatures leave a lingering presence after their demise. That does not make them any less dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Because they are not really an army they are an nomadic civilization with an obsession for order. If Azeroth is any indication they don't leave Titans on those worlds but rather constructs and chosen races to Guard them, like the Dragons and guards in Ulduar.
    I have seen nothing to suggest they are a nomadic civilization.

    And the guardian constructs are irrelevant. They guard worlds in the Titan's absence, but that does not mean the Titans are not keeping watch over them. It would make no sense to devote so many resources towards Azeroth; this is especially true considering they can 'originate' a planet with such ease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The Illidari used to be part of the Burning legion and so where the demons Azshara's guard and neither had a problem attacking their former employee.
    In Illidan's case, he was demonic and earned their service by defeating their commander. As for Azshara, I don't recall her having demons fight to contest the will of the Legion.

    I sincerely doubt members of the Legion would follow a non-demon in any great numbers. I'll concede that it's possible, but I just don't see it happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    In recent times they work together in order to break out from prison, once they are out they will most likely battle each other again though.
    That is not the same as being a 'unified force'. The demons would have to serve a specific Old God, even if they aided servants of the other Old Gods towards the same goal.
    Last edited by Lightfist; 2012-10-07 at 09:59 PM.
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  17. #77
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post

    I have seen nothing to suggest they are a nomadic civilization.
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Mythology_of_the_Titans

    These metallic giants travel across the cosmos bringing order to worlds. Warcraft III manual, pg. 133


    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    And the guardian constructs are irrelevant. They guard worlds in the Titan's absence, but that does not mean the Titans are not keeping watch over them. It would make no sense to devote so many resources towards Azeroth; this is especially true considering they can 'originate' a planet with such ease.
    On the contrary if they would truly keep watch over all their worlds they would have done something against the legion by now, wouldn't you agree and failsafe constructs like Algalon would be unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    In Illidan's case, he was demonic and earned their service by defeating their commander. As for Azshara, I don't recall her having demons fight to contest the will of the Legion.

    I sincerely doubt members of the Legion would follow a non-demon in any great numbers.
    Depends on how powerful they are, that is all demons are about, they follow the strongest and do their bidding trying to improve their own power. Prime example warlocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    That is not the same as being a 'unified force'. The demons would have to serve a specific Old God.
    Later on maybe but not initially, they would most likely splinter into different camps similar to the followers of the Chaos gods in the Warhammer universe.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Mythology_of_the_Titans

    These metallic giants travel across the cosmos bringing order to worlds. Warcraft III manual, pg. 133
    That does not mean they are nomadic. If anything, I think having no true base of operations would make their mission nigh impossible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    On the contrary if they would truly keep watch over all their worlds they would have done something against the legion by now, wouldn't you agree and failsafe constructs like Algalon would be unnecessary.
    Algalon was them watching over the world. He was to send a code to the Titans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Depends on how powerful they are, that is all demons are about, they follow the strongest and do their bidding trying to improve their own power. Prime example warlocks.
    Warlocks bind demons into service. It has nothing to do with choice. Demons would not follow a being with ambitions and ideals far different than their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Later on maybe but not initially, they would most likely splinter into different camps similar to the followers of the Chaos gods in the Warhammer universe.
    Why would they splinter into different camps? My entire point was that no single Old God could sway demons from following Sargeras.
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  19. #79
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    That does not mean they are nomadic. If anything, I think having no true base of operations would make their mission nigh impossible.
    Whenever Titans are mentioned it is said they travel, never is their homeworld even mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Algalon was them watching over the world. He was to send a code to the Titans.
    Algalon was a failsafe Program, whose mission it is to purge the impure and to start a cycle anew if necessary, the signal would have meant yeah the world is toast you have to come back and to start from scratch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Warlocks bind demons into service. It has nothing to do with choice. Demons would not follow a being with ambitions and ideals far different than their own.
    That is why I said it depends on their power even a mortal could in theory have a demonical army if he is strong enough to shackle them to his will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Why would they splinter into different camps? My entire point was that no single Old God could sway demons from following Sargeras.
    If Illidan could do it, why should an Old god not be able to do so? The Old Gods would most likely work together initially and go their separate ways after they disposed of Sargeras, the demons which they would have swayed would most likely splinter into camp N'zoth etc.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  20. #80
    The Lightbringer Sesto's Avatar
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    Well, the Naga did have a part in Catacylsm. They fought Neptulon in Vashj'ir,, and ended up taking control of him. They help slightly in Twilight Highlands as well. Seeing as Azshara is the leader, I'm sure she was ordering everyone to do that.

    The Naga originally were going to have a larger rolE with the Abyssal Depths raid, but even then, Azshara wouldn't have been in it. Azshara is too important to be just a "patch Villain". Blizzard has said this.

    But for a lore reason why Azshara didn't help Deathwing more? Because she didn't want him to succeed, possibly. Azshara is all about power, and I doubt she is too keen on being a pawn. This is why I'm hoping that when we finally meet her, she doesn't end up being another pawn of the Old Gods. I think it would be pretty badass if Azshara turned on N'zoth, and ended up "draining" his power to ravage the seas of Azeroth. It would make her look INCREDIBLY powerful and threatening, seeing as she basically betrayed the master of betrayals.

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