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  1. #461
    So many chimps here who don't even know Diivil and quoting him like crying babies who don't even understand what they are talking about...
    GC : We try very hard not to monkey around with things just for the sake of changing, but it's easy to play the "I didn't see feedback on X, therefore there wasn't feedback on X" card.

    The ultimate feminist move, liberating all the women from the penis, will be EXCISION.

  2. #462
    I'd like to see Blood Legion win 25man Progression tbh. That I think would be awesome, considering they've been up amongst the best, but still kinda been the underdogs.
    In my honest opinion I think they've deserved it just as much as Method does :P

  3. #463
    Field Marshal Gunmonkey90's Avatar
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    When i started playing, Nihilum & Kungen was the heroes.. So would be cool to see a comeback there...
    "As Dark as a Ravens flight, Cold as Winters night"

  4. #464
    Stood in the Fire Haizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daftone View Post
    Paragon is all that counts because they're 10 man. 25 man means nothing. See I can make absolute statements too.
    If you look at the facts your statement isn't so absolute:
    1. Raids are originally balanced around 25mans, then nerfed to make it viable for 10man. Generally making it easier overall(both heroic and 25m).
    2. 25 decent raiders are harder to find, and keeping the communication on a high level is also tough. Which is why 25m gets more then what 10m has, though getting more doesn't make it easier at all.
    3. 10 man is completely under-tuned this expansion. I've done both so far, and the mechanics were pretty much laughable when we switched. Ignoring mechanics just to heal through them isn't quite the right design.

    I digress, 10man and 25man are usually pretty equal and there isn't much difference in terms of difficulty. Neither is better than the other overall, and I wish they would settle on one raid size. That being said, Paragon will probably get world first with Blood Legion shortly behind if you count both. Considering the difficulty difference, BL will be considered the actual world first.

  5. #465
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthThrall View Post
    Blizzard themselves made the Realm First Achievement count in both 10 and 25 mans why would the same not apply to World First? You do realize your own argument is invalid by saying you are not in the same race as the 25 man guilds, yet if you go to wowprogress you will find yourself ranked #1 on the homepage. You may not be racing against Method but you are beating them nonetheless.
    Let's see now....

    OH, LOOK!

    http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier14_25

    Blood Legion is ranked #1!

    But wait....what's this?!

    http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier14_10

    DREAM Paragon is ranked #1 as well! WHAT IS THIS SORCERY?!


    Oh yea, I almost forgot that you were talking about the main page #1.

    http://www.wowprogress.com/

    DREAM Paragon (10)
    Blood Legion (25 recruiting)

    Even the MAIN PAGE separates the 2 difficulties!

    I really fail to see your point in this, other than that DREAM Paragon will be listed as the first guild on the main page.
    But even then, there's that 10 man tag behind the guild name. Anyone with even a nanogram of common sense in their brain can see that it's a 10 man guild. If people really are interested in only the 25 man race, then why the hell would they look at the rankings of both difficulties of the tier combined, when they can, with a simple click of the left mouse button, look at the difficulties separated to both brackets?


    Disclaimer:
    This post isn't meant to incite yet another 10v25 debate.
    Last edited by Tekloth; 2012-10-11 at 05:09 AM.

  6. #466
    Paragon made a huge push tonight sitting at 5/6 now!

  7. #467
    Cant we all just get along?

    The world first race is always fun to see how it plays out, no need to bicker about it.

  8. #468
    1. Paragon
    2. Method
    3. Stars or Kin Raiders

  9. #469
    What people fail to understand is that paragon was the best at 25 man, now they the best at 10 man, if they get world first they get world first and they still the best raiding grp. It also shows that blizzard has done a good job with balancing the raids cause the rankings haven't changed, Paragon still number 1.

  10. #470
    It must feel strange for Method when they finally get that world first to know that they only did so because Paragon gave up and downgraded. It's like Andy Murray in the US Open this year. He knows he only managed to win because he didn't have to play and lose to Roger Federer again.

  11. #471
    Herald of the Titans starkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunmonkey90 View Post
    When i started playing, Nihilum & Kungen was the heroes.. So would be cool to see a comeback there...
    They come back, but no longer hero's, also only a few are original rest are scrubs from the stream channel that don't know left from right.
    You are lying! I never hit you! YOU ARE TEARING ME APART, LISA!

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Theiea View Post
    Cant we all just get along?
    Stop being silly, this is an internet forum.

  13. #473
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    If you look at the facts your statement isn't so absolute:
    1. Raids are originally balanced around 25mans, then nerfed to make it viable for 10man. Generally making it easier overall(both heroic and 25m).
    Not any more, actually happens the other way around now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    2. 25 decent raiders are harder to find, and keeping the communication on a high level is also tough. Which is why 25m gets more then what 10m has, though getting more doesn't make it easier at all.
    Logistics in getting the people is a fair point, but getting loot must help, it's impossible that it wouldn't make it at least somewhat better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    3. 10 man is completely under-tuned this expansion. I've done both so far, and the mechanics were pretty much laughable when we switched. Ignoring mechanics just to heal through them isn't quite the right design.
    Statistics are against you: http://www.wowtrack.org/encounters

    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    I digress, 10man and 25man are usually pretty equal and there isn't much difference in terms of difficulty. Neither is better than the other overall, and I wish they would settle on one raid size. That being said, Paragon will probably get world first with Blood Legion shortly behind if you count both. Considering the difficulty difference, BL will be considered the actual world first.
    Nope, whoever wins will be considered world first.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  14. #474
    Think we can all guess who'se winning this.
    Trylb / Galesin
    Winners never quit, Quitters never win
    Nobody Said It Was Easy

  15. #475
    Stood in the Fire Haizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Not any more, actually happens the other way around now.
    Why, because 10mans were first on beta? They were balancing 25man and scaling it down to 10 so people could test.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Logistics in getting the people is a fair point, but getting loot must help, it's impossible that it wouldn't make it at least somewhat better.
    I meant easier than 10, not easier than without the extra buffs. I should have worded that better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Statistics are against you: http://www.wowtrack.org/encounters
    Massive numbers vs small numbers makes the numbers skewered. If it was 6000 vs 6000 then you could talk statistics, or at least a little closer. Not a 5500 difference. Not to mention most guilds who do 25man aren't doing it casually.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Nope, whoever wins will be considered world first.
    Nah, not by the actual raiders and people who do more than frolic around the bosses after the nerfs.

  16. #476
    Pandaren Monk
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    25:
    1. Blood Legion
    2. Method
    3. Vodka (even though they tend to slow down quite a bit on the final few bosses I'll still give them 3.)

    10:
    1. Paragon
    2. doesn't matter
    3. doesn't matter

    I think 10 and 25 should be separate, because there are differences in the bosses so 2 lists is the best way to do it. Sadly this means Paragon has no competition what so ever.
    Last edited by Amsden; 2012-10-11 at 06:37 AM.

  17. #477
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    Why, because 10mans were first on beta? They were balancing 25man and scaling it down to 10 so people could test.
    Do you have a source on that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    I meant easier than 10, not easier than without the extra buffs. I should have worded that better.
    I'm not sure I follow the point you were getting at now?



    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    Massive numbers vs small numbers makes the numbers skewered. If it was 6000 vs 6000 then you could talk statistics, or at least a little closer. Not a 5500 difference. Not to mention most guilds who do 25man aren't doing it casually.
    I'll give you that barely any 25s are doing this casually, but I do doubt how many 10s are at this early stage. As for the low numbers, they're high enough for at least the first 4. After that, it gets somewhat sketchy, but that's when it's considered harder for 10 man any way.

    You can read more about how it's calculated here: http://www.wowtrack.org/faq#relative_difficulty

    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    Nah, not by the actual raiders and people who do more than frolic around the bosses after the nerfs.
    I'd wager since the majority of raiders are 10 man, they will more easily accept a 10 man winner than you think.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  18. #478
    lol 10 man guilds being discussed here still is silly.

    Come on people get real. Hardcore raiders know what matters, the reason why you see so many more 25 man guilds is because no one serious about raiding goes 10 man.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I don't think my opinion is more important than that of others, but looking at the level of discussion coming from you and many others, I'd say they're a bit more valid. And that has nothing to do with my position anywhere.

    And I'm sorry but you can't undo my statements or arguments with a simple "no you are wrong." When we raided 25-man, we never considered ourselves as partakers in the 10-man 'race' and now that we're 10-man, we don't really consider ourselves as partakers in the 25-man 'race.' There's 2 world firsts up for each boss, and the one you respect more is up to you. But you should respect that not everyone will agree with you. Personally, I respect both to some degree, though the guild I'll respect most will be Method when they take their long-deserved 25HC World Firsts. I (still) think 25HC kills are a bigger deal, but I'm fine with anyone disagreeing.

    Considering I'm not the only one thinking this, you really need to stop spewing bullshit and inciting 10/25 flamewars. However stupid it may be, you made your opinion clear and unless you can come up with an intelligent argument for defending it, you can let others decide what it is worth. Meanwhile let other people discuss actually relevant topics and root for their favorite guilds instead of beating a dead horse and enforcing your opinion upon everyone.
    Thank you.

    But you can say what you want here but no one will ever listen to reason here.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by xlightning View Post
    Still i can't understand how people can say a guild is not WF when they kill it first, just because it is 10 man.
    They're world first 10 man. "World first" is meaningless in the current raid model, only "World first 10" and "World first 25" make sense. Personally, what some 10 man guild kills or when is not interesting to me, it's not that big of an achievement when it's just 10 people. But I'm sure it's very interesting to them, and other 10 man raiders though.

    Paragon themselves said they are going 10 man because they're no longer able to compete in the 25 man bracket due to the lower quality of the recruit base.

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