World First Race:

[Duridi]

In "World First" race only 25 man teams matter, 10 man may or may not be better, may or may not be harder, may or may not make more sense, but they are not in conversation for world first ever, only 25man matters when it comes to first

You forgot to add "In my opinion".

[ShadowCrafter]

Nice to see paragon make a comeback after ds, good luck on Will of the emperor guys!

No offence mate but where have u been? You do know all the EU guilds were banned for a week at the start of DS because of the LFR exploit. I think Blood Legion, stars, kin raiders and Vodka were the only ones that didn't use it.

[Deleted]

In "World First" race only 25 man teams matter, 10 man may or may not be better, may or may not be harder, may or may not make more sense, but they are not in conversation for world first ever, only 25man matters when it comes to first

And why? that is a stupid statement. If Guild A is 10 man, and Guild B is 25 man, and Guild A kills heroic will of the emperor 2 hours before Guild B. Would you honestly say Guild B got the world first? World first is whoever gets the kill first, regardless of size. Hence the name "WORLD FIRST" nowhere in those two words does it specify 25 or 10 man.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 09:13 AM ----------

No offence mate but where have u been? You do know all the EU guilds were banned for a week at the start of DS because of the LFR exploit. I think Blood Legion, stars, kin raiders and Vodka were the only ones that didn't use it.

Yeah I was aware of that, maybe I should re-phrase it to nice to see paragon not getting banned this time and are back to actually getting world firsts xD.

[Rayaleith]

I agree. First is first. The definition of the word. And many encounters are actually more difficult in 10 man.

[Deleted]

1) The best players in the world are still doing 25 man raiding since as you say paragon is thrashing the other 10 man raiding guilds.
2) The balance between 10 and 25s is actually really good, so whoever gets the world 1st kill gets the world 1st kill no matter the format.

Do you not see the direct contradiction in 1) and 2)?

[Crazyjoe]

I agree. First is first. The definition of the word. And many encounters are actually more difficult in 10 man.

TBH I am actually amazed how well Paragon is doing, 10 man is actually harder this tier and if you look at previous tiers 10 man raiding guilds were doing A LOT better.
So it makes Paragons kills even that more impressive.

*TinFoil Hat*
I think a 25 man raiding guild will still beat paragon to 6/6, I don't think blizzard wants a 10 man raiding guild to ever get world first clears. So the 10 man encounters will be nerfed next week.
/*TinFoil Hat*

[Deleted]

I agree. First is first. The definition of the word.

So Usain Bolt did not only win the 100 meters at the olympics, he also won the marathon.

[vizzle]

*TinFoil Hat*
I think a 25 man raiding guild will still beat paragon to 6/6, I don't think blizzard wants a 10 man raiding guild to ever get world first kill. So the 10 man encounters will be nerfed next week.
/*TinFoil Hat*

And what fuels your reasoning to imply that Blizzard gives a crap whether a 25man or a 10man group completes the 6 bosses first? Why would Blizzard care about that?

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 04:29 PM ----------

So Usain Bolt did not only win the 100 meters at the olympics, he also won the marathon.

Also, apparently, if Usain Bolt raced against a sports car, and if the sports car wins, that means Usain Bolt is second best, apparently. Because first is first, no matter what the circumstances may be.

[Crazyjoe]

So Usain Bolt did not only win the 100 meters at the olympics, he also won the marathon.

I didn't realise there was a raid with another 50 additional bosses in it. Where can i find this marathon raid?

[vizzle]

I didn't realise there was a raid with another 50 additional bosses in it. Where can i find this marathon raid?

Goood job not understanding analogies.

[Crazyjoe]

And what fuels your reasoning to imply that Blizzard gives a crap whether a 25man or a 10man group completes the 6 bosses first? Why would Blizzard care about that?[COLOR="red"]

25 man raiding is hanging on by a thread as it is, so far this tier. 10700 10 man guilds have killed stone guard normal, 1220 25 man raiding guilds have done it on 25 man normal.

Total guilds = 11920 , 25 man raiding guilds make up 10.2% of the total.

[vsb]

And why? that is a stupid statement. If Guild A is 10 man, and Guild B is 25 man, and Guild A kills heroic will of the emperor 2 hours before Guild B. Would you honestly say Guild B got the world first? World first is whoever gets the kill first, regardless of size. Hence the name "WORLD FIRST" nowhere in those two words does it specify 25 or 10 man.

I personally care about 10-man world first as much as I care about LFR world first. World first race is in the 25-man heroic raid, other formats and difficulties are not interesting.

[Deleted]

The current race proves 2 things about balance of 10 and 25 man raiders.

1) The best players in the world are still doing 25 man raiding since as you say paragon is thrashing the other 10 man raiding guilds.
2) The balance between 10 and 25s is actually really good, so whoever gets the world 1st kill gets the world 1st kill no matter the format.

Paragon was already number 1 in 25 man and now they number 1 in 10 man, nothing changes.

We agree on your first conclusion.

We disagree on the second conclusion. The balance is not always the same, in my opinion and it is tier related.
We can only make the assumption that since in this tier we have 9 25 ppl guilds on top, and no 10 man scoring a 3rd heroic kill yet, that this would be another tier 11, were 10 man lovers would comblain for overtuned 10 man versions of the encounters.
Now since Paragon is 3 kills ahead than the second 10 man, this argument cannot be used.

The content if nothing else is not overtuned for 10s.
Now from the above fact you can either conclude

1) That 25 man teams (and 10 man Paragon team) are simply the best teams
2) Or that 10 man content is actually undertuned
3) Or a mix of (1) and (2)

I would go for no 1 conclusion. 25s, were all this time, the best teams. 10 man losing the races, had nothing to do with 10 man content being overtuned.

At the same time, i will repeat that 10=/=25.

There are 2 races.
Manni was very acurate in his post.
And it is a post from an experienced top level raider that has done both at top level.
If we can have an opinion with a semi casual, semi skilled, or semi serious aproach, then if nothing else, the expert's opinion, should put an end to the "one world first" argument.

There is no such a thing. There is not a "world first 10/25".
There is one 10 man world first
And one 25 man world first (for as long as 25s still exist)

[Deleted]

From the above you can see that so much skill and quality is still within the top 25s, yet the size keeps dying.
Paradoxes of a biased system that is strangulating the large teams starting from bottom, heading to top.

It's just yet another way the game is dying out. The world first race keeps getting more and more boring due to less teams with less skill, and boring raids. Following 10 man race is just not interesting to me. It's really depressing to watch a kill video of what is supposed to be one of the greatest achievements in the game and see what's essentially an over sized dungeon group.

[Crazyjoe]

Goood job not understanding analogies.

The poster was trying to say that 25 man raiding is different and the 2 formats shouldn't be compared to each other. I am saying both 10 and 25 raids have the same amount of bosses to kill. World 1st is world 1st.

[vizzle]

25 man raiding is hanging on by a thread as it is, so far this tier. 10700 10 man guilds have killed stone guard normal, 1220 25 man raiding guilds have done it on 25 man normal.

Total guilds = 11920 , 25 man raiding guilds make up 10.2% of the total.

The only reason it's hanging by a thread is because of Blizzard's decisions. Blizzard made it this way, not the game. They were the ones who put 10 and 25 on the same lockout, they gave 10man raids 25man gear, and they made the achievements the same. Do you think they didn't know what the results would be? Of course they did. They're cutting 25man away so that in 1 or 2 expansions, when hardly anyone does it anymore, it'll seem justly to just kill it, which is what they've wanted all along so they'll only have to balance one size.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 04:38 PM ----------

The poster was trying to say that 25 man raiding is different and the 2 formats shouldn't be compared to each other. I am saying both 10 and 25 raids have the same amount of bosses to kill. World 1st is world 1st.

Usain Bolt and a sports car have the same amount of distance to cover as well.

[Farora]

Why would Blizzard care if 25 man raiding dies? There is one problem with 10 man raiding though, guilds that raid 10 man are usually completely dead outside of raid hours.

[vizzle]

A better comparison might be a runner with 2 legs against a runner with 4.5 legs...?

The best comparison is futsal vs. soccer, which is what someone pointed out a few pages back. You can't compare the two. They need the same talents, they need the same skills, but they're fundamentally different.

[Crazyjoe]

A better comparison might be a runner with 2 legs against a runner with 4.5 legs...?

lol nice one, just think about those poor runners with 8 legs back in Vanilla.

[Theiea]

Blood Legion now at 5/16H, tied with Paragon.