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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozez View Post
    And why? that is a stupid statement. If Guild A is 10 man, and Guild B is 25 man, and Guild A kills heroic will of the emperor 2 hours before Guild B. Would you honestly say Guild B got the world first? World first is whoever gets the kill first, regardless of size. Hence the name "WORLD FIRST" nowhere in those two words does it specify 25 or 10 man.
    I personally care about 10-man world first as much as I care about LFR world first. World first race is in the 25-man heroic raid, other formats and difficulties are not interesting.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowCrafter View Post
    The current race proves 2 things about balance of 10 and 25 man raiders.

    1) The best players in the world are still doing 25 man raiding since as you say paragon is thrashing the other 10 man raiding guilds.
    2) The balance between 10 and 25s is actually really good, so whoever gets the world 1st kill gets the world 1st kill no matter the format.

    Paragon was already number 1 in 25 man and now they number 1 in 10 man, nothing changes.
    We agree on your first conclusion.

    We disagree on the second conclusion. The balance is not always the same, in my opinion and it is tier related.
    We can only make the assumption that since in this tier we have 9 25 ppl guilds on top, and no 10 man scoring a 3rd heroic kill yet, that this would be another tier 11, were 10 man lovers would comblain for overtuned 10 man versions of the encounters.
    Now since Paragon is 3 kills ahead than the second 10 man, this argument cannot be used.

    The content if nothing else is not overtuned for 10s.
    Now from the above fact you can either conclude

    1) That 25 man teams (and 10 man Paragon team) are simply the best teams
    2) Or that 10 man content is actually undertuned
    3) Or a mix of (1) and (2)

    I would go for no 1 conclusion. 25s, were all this time, the best teams. 10 man losing the races, had nothing to do with 10 man content being overtuned.

    At the same time, i will repeat that 10=/=25.

    There are 2 races.
    Manni was very acurate in his post.
    And it is a post from an experienced top level raider that has done both at top level.
    If we can have an opinion with a semi casual, semi skilled, or semi serious aproach, then if nothing else, the expert's opinion, should put an end to the "one world first" argument.

    There is no such a thing. There is not a "world first 10/25".
    There is one 10 man world first
    And one 25 man world first (for as long as 25s still exist)
    Last edited by Archidamos; 2012-10-11 at 08:40 AM.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    From the above you can see that so much skill and quality is still within the top 25s, yet the size keeps dying.
    Paradoxes of a biased system that is strangulating the large teams starting from bottom, heading to top.
    It's just yet another way the game is dying out. The world first race keeps getting more and more boring due to less teams with less skill, and boring raids. Following 10 man race is just not interesting to me. It's really depressing to watch a kill video of what is supposed to be one of the greatest achievements in the game and see what's essentially an over sized dungeon group.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Goood job not understanding analogies.
    The poster was trying to say that 25 man raiding is different and the 2 formats shouldn't be compared to each other. I am saying both 10 and 25 raids have the same amount of bosses to kill. World 1st is world 1st.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazyjoe View Post
    25 man raiding is hanging on by a thread as it is, so far this tier. 10700 10 man guilds have killed stone guard normal, 1220 25 man raiding guilds have done it on 25 man normal.

    Total guilds = 11920 , 25 man raiding guilds make up 10.2% of the total.
    The only reason it's hanging by a thread is because of Blizzard's decisions. Blizzard made it this way, not the game. They were the ones who put 10 and 25 on the same lockout, they gave 10man raids 25man gear, and they made the achievements the same. Do you think they didn't know what the results would be? Of course they did. They're cutting 25man away so that in 1 or 2 expansions, when hardly anyone does it anymore, it'll seem justly to just kill it, which is what they've wanted all along so they'll only have to balance one size.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 04:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazyjoe View Post
    The poster was trying to say that 25 man raiding is different and the 2 formats shouldn't be compared to each other. I am saying both 10 and 25 raids have the same amount of bosses to kill. World 1st is world 1st.
    Usain Bolt and a sports car have the same amount of distance to cover as well.
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  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Usain Bolt and a sports car have the same amount of distance to cover as well.
    A better comparison might be a runner with 2 legs against a runner with 4.5 legs...?

    Doomhammer EU

  7. #507
    Why would Blizzard care if 25 man raiding dies? There is one problem with 10 man raiding though, guilds that raid 10 man are usually completely dead outside of raid hours.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by TobiasX View Post
    A better comparison might be a runner with 2 legs against a runner with 4.5 legs...?
    The best comparison is futsal vs. soccer, which is what someone pointed out a few pages back. You can't compare the two. They need the same talents, they need the same skills, but they're fundamentally different.
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  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by TobiasX View Post
    A better comparison might be a runner with 2 legs against a runner with 4.5 legs...?
    lol nice one, just think about those poor runners with 8 legs back in Vanilla.

  10. #510
    Blood Legion now at 5/16H, tied with Paragon.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    The best comparison is futsol vs. soccer, which is what someone pointed out a few pages back. You can't compare the two. They need the same talents, they need the same skills, but they're fundamentally different.
    I do agree the logistic of running a 25 man raiding guild is a lot more difficult outside of raids and 25 man raids should be compensation and I do agree with your reply that blizzard wants to kill off 25 man raiding. No one in there right minds forming a brand new guild today would try to form a 25 man raiding guild. So for every 25 man guilds that dies 1 or 2 10 man guilds take its place.

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by TobiasX View Post
    A better comparison might be a runner with 2 legs against a runner with 4.5 legs...?
    Actually, it would be a runner with 5 legs.

  13. #513
    Ok not sure if I have been bullshitted here or not but apparently ingame friend from Finland reckons with current gear on 10 man Paragon might not be able to down Will of the Emperor. So I think a 25 man raiding guild will still take get it by dropping a healer or 2.

  14. #514
    Paragon and method members have already posted here - 10 and 25 are not the same thing. Arguing which is harder is pointless. There is a world 1st 10 man and a world 1st 25 man, they are separate things. This argument is the biggest circlejerk I've ever seen on these forums.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by TobiasX View Post
    A better comparison might be a runner with 2 legs against a runner with 4.5 legs...?
    According to the 25 = 10 people, the winner of the Wimbledon singles tournament is also doubles champion.

  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajskorv View Post
    According to the 25 = 10 people, the winner of the Wimbledon singles tournament is also doubles champion.
    They don't share a lockout. Serena Williams won both at London.

  17. #517
    The Taiwanese and Korean servers have now started, Stars on 2/16H and Kin Raiders on 1/16H. I'm still backing Stars when it all gets worked out Blood Legion doing awfully well though...

  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    They're world first 10 man. "World first" is meaningless in the current raid model, only "World first 10" and "World first 25" make sense. Personally, what some 10 man guild kills or when is not interesting to me, it's not that big of an achievement when it's just 10 people. But I'm sure it's very interesting to them, and other 10 man raiders though.

    Paragon themselves said they are going 10 man because they're no longer able to compete in the 25 man bracket due to the lower quality of the recruit base.
    World first 10 and World first 25 makes sense? They share the same achievement as far as i know. I don't understad how the firsts can not be the firsts.

    Let's say Paragon is WF. And Blood Legion goes second. How can Blood Legion say they are firsts if someone finished the race before theme?

    People argue that 25 man is more dificult, even if it is true 10 man has cos aswell. For example if 3 people die in 25 man it's hard but maybe you can still defeat the boss. If only 2 people or even sometimes only 1 person dies in 10 man it's over. It takes less skilled people but all of theme have more responsability on their shoulders.

  19. #519
    10 man guild don't count, so go go blood legion. Even Paragon once said 10 was more easy than 25. The harder encounter and raid size wins and that is 25 man.

    World first 25 man and world first 10 man the guilds can claim these as there own. But in the players eyes or at least mine the 25man guild was the real first guild as its the most challenging they did the most work.

    Think of it like another game with Easy Normal and Hard mode. Paragon are playing on Normal Blood legion on Hard. If the game is complete first on normal and then someone does it on hard after i would count the Hard mode as the real final of end all its done.

    Even if paragon do get it first on 10 man it was not the most hard setting in game. The hard setting is 25 man mode. Paragon just did it on normal mode... (going on the above easy/normal/hard setting)
    Last edited by Domiku; 2012-10-11 at 09:33 AM.

  20. #520
    Brewmaster xlightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maladicta View Post
    The Taiwanese and Korean servers have now started, Stars on 2/16H and Kin Raiders on 1/16H. I'm still backing Stars when it all gets worked out Blood Legion doing awfully well though...
    What about the Chinese ones? Unless they are still in Cata. I am not sure.

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