World First Race:

[Duridi]

It's apparently considered the "real" tier in Korea too, and those guys know their games! :P

Oh yeah, that's actually true. One of the blues said that during an interview sometime during early Cataclysm(that 10 man is considered the real race in Korea, since I managed to clip that out of the quote...)). Might have changed since then though.

---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 02:46 PM ----------

But it´s very easy to find 10 perfect players

Easy in a nutshell maybe.

Don't think there were many world-competative 10 man guilds all of Cataclysm?

[Dexterz]

Yoshitsuna, as Crashdummy said in a post above "10 mans were NEVER taken into consideration in World Firsts, so it would be unfair to do it now because Paragon went 10 man."

I couldnt agree more with him. Just because it´s Paragon everyone is so supportive of 10 mans all of a sudden. Just because one of the best guilds decides to ball out doesnt mean that everyone have to follow their in their footsteps.

It´s pretty sad that all the Paragon fanboys are trying to make 10 mans a valid World First option just because their favorite guild is doing 10 mans.

[TobiasX]

The only factor that really matters is the amount of time between every major patch. 1 month, 2 month, 3 month, 6. In which, more frequently and faster would have the same definition (because they do). Raids A, B, C are all part of release content, they're all part of the same tier and the same patch. Releasing them separately doesn't change that.

You're welcome to decide what matters to you but I measure it based on when raids are available, not based on major patches. Content is not being released 'faster' because they're working on raids in tandem then fine tuning them just before they're released, but the releases are being staggered to occur 'more frequently' over the lifetime of the patch. We aren't getting content 'faster', just 'more often' (because of the staggering).

Faster: We're going to build 1 raid, every week, for 20 weeks.
More Frequently: We've got 20 raids built. We're going to release 1 every week.

Yoshitsuna, as Crashdummy said in a post above "10 mans were NEVER taken into consideration in World Firsts, so it would be unfair to do it now because Paragon went 10 man."

I couldnt agree more with him. Just because it´s Paragon everyone is so supportive of 10 mans all of a sudden. Just because one of the best guilds decides to ball out doesnt mean that everyone have to follow their in their footsteps.

It´s pretty sad that all the Paragon fanboys are trying to make 10 mans a valid World First option just because their favorite guild is doing 10 mans.

I'm doing it because all the 25-man guilds on Doomhammer-EU seem to be dead. Also 10-mans seem to be the majority among players as a whole now.

[GregDub]

All this 10 vs 25 crying jeezzz ... just follow the races yes !
Atm there is 3 guilds with 3/6 Heroic

1 vodka US-Alterac Mountains 3/16 (H)
2 Blood Legion US-Illidan 3/16 (H)
3 DREAM Paragon EU-Lightning's Blade 3/16 (H)

Think it will be between them for world first 6/6

[Dexterz]

Paragon do count, it is as simple as that.

Those who say otherwise are just wrong. If Paragon get world first they will be #1 in the rankings and there is nothing anyone can do about that.

So stop trying to say Paragon don't count because they do. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. You are starting to sound like butthurt fanboys.

It´s the other way around, you sound like a butthurt Paragon fanboy.

[parish]

When I saw Method streaming the other day I was shocked by how many of their players didn't know the fights and were failing on basic things like the "dance" on Will of the Emperors. But they seemed to learn very fast over the weekend and had everything nailed by the end of the week. I think they'll do pretty well. Envy and For the Horde (didn't they disband?!) look like good bets too.

The korea and taiwan realms look weak, like only 30 guilds 6/6, but maybe they just don't bother to update their progress on western sites so often? Is KIN RAIDERS even still going?

Well.. Method is beating them Eu's. So i bet they were trolling.

[brexour]

Make it a Alliance vs Horde fight instead of 10 vs 25?

[Keyur]

I remember Ensidia getting a first kill in 10 man in Cata and being ignored by the community because it was a 10 man. We have to be fair here.

Which end game boss in cata? or it wasnt end game boss?

[xlightning]

10 do count, If a 10 man guild gets the world first they will have 1# in all sites and progress acknowledge by everyone or not it will be a fact. And no, i am not a Paragon fanboy. I never liked theme.

[Keyur]

Make it a Alliance vs Horde fight instead of 10 vs 25?

Ally vs Horde isnt that hot now a days

[maladicta]

It's okay, I misread it as your opinion at first anyways, so I were no better.

Hehe Yeah, I should have been clearer, my bad.

As for seperate races... I think a large majority of the raiding community do not see any of the sizes superior to the other, which means a very tiny, but vocal majority make this out to be a huge problem. People say about 90% of the current raidingguilds are 10 man, which suggest close to 90% of those players do not see 25 man as the superior choice. Meaning they either prefer 10 man, or they do not care if it's 25 or 10 man. Notice I said "close to 90% of those players"(close to 90% of those 90% in other words). There is obviously a few people raiding 10 man that would much rather do 25, but if we were talking about a large % of them, we wouldn't be having this many 10 mans around.

In general, people do not like being looked down on. In this case meaning they would pick the format that would benefit them but not belittle them. Being confident in their own choice, which for a large majority is 10 man, they consider themselves equal to those who have picked 25 and is obviously confident enough in this belief/themselves that they continue running the format no matter how much some 25 man raiders try to belittle them.

Very good points. I think though that the belittling is going both ways, and I think it's a real shame.

I'm actually one of those who have been stuck doing 10 man since T12 even though I far prefer 25 man, because I can't raid early enough for most guilds and so many former 25 man guilds have gone to 10 man now for various reasons. I think you're spot on about feeling confident in one's choice (though in my case I didn't really have a choice) and I just don't enjoy 10 mans or find them particularly motivating.

I genuinely believe that it's impossible to make the two versions equally challenging, so it seems most realistic to me to just think of them separately altogether regardless of my personal opinions on their relative difficulty. But I'll stop flogging that particular dead horse now

[Repefe]

They really don't have differing definitions. You're kinda stretching here. We both know that "faster" and "more frequently" mean the same thing: releasing content patches more often. If you have 12 months, releasing 4 patches over those 12 is both faster and more frequent than releasing 3 patches, overall and on average.

To me faster and more frequent don't mean the same thing. It's like saying 1 and 1.5 are the same number. So there is no "we" in how you understand meaning of those two expressions.

[dakalro]

I agree Paragon is in the tougher league now where there is 10 times as many guilds as 25 man raiding guilds to compete with. Also as another poster said 10 man raiding guilds are struggling to even down the 1st boss on heroic.

On the Premier league I am going for Paragon and B league going for Envy.

Paragon will have 0 competition in 10 man, 0. There was no real hardcore guild pre-them in 10 man.

[Darsithis]

Keep it civil, guys. Enough with the "butthurt fanboy" crap

[Archidamos]

I agree Paragon is in the tougher league now where there is 10 times as many guilds as 25 man raiding guilds to compete with. Also as another poster said 10 man raiding guilds are struggling to even down the 1st boss on heroic.

On the Premier league I am going for Paragon and B league going for Envy.

By the end of this tier the ratio of 10 to 25 will be much higher than 10:1. That means nothing, cause not all of those guilds are competitive guilds.

As another poster said “10 man raiding guilds are struggling to even down the first boss on heroic” eh?
Look at Paragon now :P

You people are experts.
The fact that Paragon steamrolled the first 3 heroics 16 hours after the race started for so many other 10 man teams proves the obvious.
That 10 man content is not tougher. Quite the opposite!

On one side I am sad that Paragon will get this world first 10/25 (there is no such race, but since blizzard is encouraging this false impression...), as a 10 man.
It will mean that 25s will keep falling apart, only at an even faster pace.

On the other side it will prove that during the past, 10 mans although severely outnumbering 25 mans, were losing the races not because their content was harder, but because 25s were the better teams.

The margin at which Paragon will clear the content from the second fastest guild (obviously a 25), will define how much easier 10 man content actually is.

[Ryme]

I remember Ensidia getting a first kill in 10 man in Cata and being ignored by the community because it was a 10 man. We have to be fair here.

It was still counted, it was even front page mmo-c news. It was just like one of the first bosses, so people moved on once the next ones were killed. Once they got cockbocked in 10s (overtuned 10 man boss) they went back to 25 and still lost, so no one cared.

[Proberly]

Why is Paragon even there, this should just be 25man world firsts.

Still this mindset with people. 25 man is not harder.

For arguments sake, I could say that 10 mans matter more, since they have ALOT, ALOT more competition. There are thousands of more serious 10 man guilds than 25 mans.

[Kittyvicious]

To me faster and more frequent don't mean the same thing. It's like saying 1 and 1.5 are the same number. So there is no "we" in how you understand meaning of those two expressions.

Lol wut? That makes absolutely no sense. And in the context of your argument, they are the same thing. Please give me a situation where releasing content faster is not more frequent or v/v.

I will follow that up by saying there is never a situation where 1 is 1.5. Your logic is invalid.

[dakalro]

Guys if Paragon gets world 1st 10man it doesnt mean 10 man is easier since they were the best guild at 25 mans. So basically u need another guild to win.

Paragon's winning is not relevant for that. When the 2nd kill will happen is.

[Archidamos]

It was still counted, it was even front page mmo-c news. It was just like one of the first bosses, so people moved on once the next ones were killed. Once they got cockbocked in 10s (overtuned 10 man boss) they went back to 25 and still lost, so no one cared.

Lol, they just had the team ready for 25s...
And think better before you talk.
Cause the first heroic boss in Cataclysm expansion to be defeated, was Halfus Wyrmbraker 10 man, a boss that was the flagship of the arguments of 10 man lovers, regarding how ovetuned 10 mans were compared to 25s in tier 11!
The irony eh?
Ensidia roflstomped halfus in 10 heroic, and all 10 man guilds were complaining about how ovetuned he was :P