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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    By the end of this tier the ratio of 10 to 25 will be much higher than 10:1. That means nothing, cause not all of those guilds are competitive guilds.

    As another poster said “10 man raiding guilds are struggling to even down the first boss on heroic” eh?
    Look at Paragon now :P

    You people are experts.
    The fact that Paragon steamrolled the first 3 heroics 16 hours after the race started for so many other 10 man teams proves the obvious.
    That 10 man content is not tougher. Quite the opposite!

    On one side I am sad that Paragon will get this world first 10/25 (there is no such race, but since blizzard is encouraging this false impression...), as a 10 man.
    It will mean that 25s will keep falling apart, only at an even faster pace.

    On the other side it will prove that during the past, 10 mans although severely outnumbering 25 mans, were losing the races not because their content was harder, but because 25s were the better teams.

    The margin at which Paragon will clear the content from the second fastest guild (obviously a 25), will define how much easier 10 man content actually is.
    Paragon will get blocked at Elegon where 25 man raiding guilds will have the advantage to play around with setups.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    Lol so there were no cmplains about halfus eh?
    And Maloriak was the only boss that 10 mans complained as being overtuned eh?
    Then what was all that fuss about most fights being harder in 10 in tier 11?
    Shouldnt it be "Maloriak was harder in 10 plz fix"?
    Twisting the truth to dodge the obvious!

    Ensidia, a guild that lost the race and because of that according to your logic nobody cares...
    A 25 that was not even the best 25 for that tier...
    Scored the first heroic kill in the world and in 10 man mode, on a boss that most of the 10 man supporters, were complaining for being overtuned!

    Now paragon will once more, after halfus incident, and Ragnaros heroic incident prove the obvious to the 10 man supporters.
    10 man could never win a race, cause 25 had the better teams, although the content was easier for them
    This will be my last response to you on this matter, you cannot form coherent sentences, and use phrase like "by your logic", incorrectly too, so I will say my peace here.

    You still have yet to come forth with what that even pertained to, you just spouted something out with no evidence and I called you up on what it was relevant to and if it was true. You've yet to answer either.

    Ensidia lost the race, yes. My point was nobody seems to care about who loses, just who wins. Can you honestly tell me who came 3rd during the Ulduar? Even if you can, I doubt many others could without looking up. People only care about the latest kill, once guilds moved past Ensidias world first boss kill, people stopped giving it much attention.

    Your last statement is utter conjecture, I think you need to rephrase or rethink it.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  3. #283
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I'm not sure how this is relevant to anything and I'm not even certain it's true, Maloriak was the only fight people complained was overtuned in my memory, but please, continue and explain for me.
    Halfus was the easiest heroic on both 10 and 25 but some of the others were overtuned. I don't think a single 10man guild killed Magmaw until he got that big nerf which removed the add kiting (maybe a korean guild did with "clever use of game mechanics"). V+T was practically unkillable until they nerfed it by 20M hp or something too. The others were about the same. Al'Akir was a lot easier on 10 than 25 because of phase 1 damage being ridiculous in 25.

  4. #284

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I think it's about time you people started applying some logical thinking and stopped arguing about what counts and what doesn't. 10-man and 25-man are, among other things, very different, and you should just consider them to be two separate leagues, divisions or whatever term suits best.
    This I can agree with. Ive done both enough to know that they are very very different.

  6. #286
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I think it's about time you people started applying some logical thinking and stopped arguing about what counts and what doesn't. 10-man and 25-man are, among other things, very different, and you should just consider them to be two separate leagues, divisions or whatever term suits best.
    Any your opinion matters why?

    Only a Paragon member can come out and say that for it to be taken seriously. Otherwise go away please.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthThrall View Post
    Paragon do count, it is as simple as that.

    Those who say otherwise are just wrong. If Paragon get world first they will be #1 in the rankings and there is nothing anyone can do about that.

    So stop trying to say Paragon don't count because they do. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. You are starting to sound like butthurt fanboys.
    You are the one that sound like a butthurt, 10 mans NEVER mattered in the past, and just as Ensidia was taken off the race once they went 10 man, Paragon will too.

    World first race is 25 man world first race, it has always been like that and it would be unfair to change it for Paragon when it wasnt changed for world first guilds that went 10 man in the past.

  8. #288
    Deleted
    Darththrall continues his vicious trolling cycle.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Lol wut? That makes absolutely no sense. And in the context of your argument, they are the same thing. Please give me a situation where releasing content faster is not more frequent or v/v.

    I will follow that up by saying there is never a situation where 1 is 1.5. Your logic is invalid.
    Faster releases imply you will be able to make content for releases faster. More frequent releases do not imply you will be able to make content faster, only that you will be releasing what you make more often. For example faster release = I will release 10 boss raid in 5 months instead of 10 months. It will be faster release. More frequent release = I will release 5 bosses in 5 months and other 5 bosses 5 months later. I won't work any faster than before, but I will make releases more frequently.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  10. #290
    Nihilium is a guild that just finished it's first raid week ever.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyur View Post
    Which end game boss in cata? or it wasnt end game boss?
    It wasnt an end boss of course, it was one of the bosses in Tier 11, i dont remember which. Tier 11 race was not all about only the end boss, several bosses were hard, like Ala'kir for example.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Duridi View Post
    It's okay, I misread it as your opinion at first anyways, so I were no better.

    As for seperate races... I think a large majority of the raiding community do not see any of the sizes superior to the other, which means a very tiny, but vocal majority make this out to be a huge problem. People say about 90% of the current raidingguilds are 10 man, which suggest close to 90% of those players do not see 25 man as the superior choice. Meaning they either prefer 10 man, or they do not care if it's 25 or 10 man. Notice I said "close to 90% of those players"(close to 90% of those 90% in other words). There is obviously a few people raiding 10 man that would much rather do 25, but if we were talking about a large % of them, we wouldn't be having this many 10 mans around.

    In general, people do not like being looked down on. In this case meaning they would pick the format that would benefit them but not belittle them. Being confident in their own choice, which for a large majority is 10 man, they consider themselves equal to those who have picked 25 and is obviously confident enough in this belief/themselves that they continue running the format no matter how much some 25 man raiders try to belittle them.
    That doesn't make sense at all. If I raid 10 man that doesn't mean I consider 25 man equal in the world first race.

    If a large majority (90%) thought they were equal then we wouldn't be here discussing it. It's about time these two got seperated because everyone knew from the start they were never going to be equal and we have been endlessly discussing 10 vs 25 man and it leads nowhere. If you think they are equal you are just ignoring the facts. It is impossible for them to be equal, impossible.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by xlightning View Post
    10 do count, If a 10 man guild gets the world first they will have 1# in all sites and progress acknowledge by everyone or not it will be a fact. And no, i am not a Paragon fanboy. I never liked theme.
    They never counted before, so why would they count now?

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthThrall View Post
    Any your opinion matters why?

    Only a Paragon member can come out and say that for it to be taken seriously. Otherwise go away please.
    Hermanni is a Paragon member.

    (one would think his avatar is a dead giveaway...)
    Last edited by florestan; 2012-10-10 at 01:54 PM.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I think it's about time you people started applying some logical thinking and stopped arguing about what counts and what doesn't. 10-man and 25-man are, among other things, very different, and you should just consider them to be two separate leagues, divisions or whatever term suits best.
    Said that a year ago but people just like to argue ;p.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I think it's about time you people started applying some logical thinking and stopped arguing about what counts and what doesn't. 10-man and 25-man are, among other things, very different, and you should just consider them to be two separate leagues, divisions or whatever term suits best.
    It would be good to have separate races, although i think the 10 man race will be boring as hell, since you guys will crush the competition.

  17. #297
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Faster releases imply you will be able to make content for releases faster. More frequent releases do not imply you will be able to make content faster, only that you will be releasing what you make more often. For example faster release = I will release 10 boss raid in 5 months instead of 10 months. It will be faster release. More frequent release = I will release 5 bosses in 5 months and other 5 bosses 5 months later. I won't work any faster than before, but I will make releases more frequently.
    I don't think you understand the meaning of either of the words in question. You are somehow transferring to 'faster' and 'frequent', which are only measurements of speed, a contextual weighted value of content. As in somehow one word means more things being included. Those words are not a measurement of content, they are not containers. They only represent a speed, pace, etc.

    I'm not even sure how your brain could make what I quoted work for you. I think the word you are looking for is EARLIER. Faster ≠ Earlier. Speed ≠ Time.

    Edit: On further reading, I understand what you are *trying* to express. It's just not right. And no, I'm not arguing semantics. The statement that content will be coming faster or more frequently both mean the same thing. You have to apply the words to the whole process, not an individual time of the process. While either of these situations might cause an earlier (temporal) release, one moment in time does not affect an overall definition of the speed at which it is delivered.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2012-10-10 at 01:59 PM.

  18. #298
    imho - 10-mans were generally easier for 25-man guilds because they could hand pick the best group out of their roster.

    Most guilds who normally raid 10-mans have a limited roster. So their "A Team" is generally not as strong as a 25-man guild running a 10-man. 25-man guilds just have much larger rosters for which you can cherry pick perfect players/classes for a raid.

    PLUS, 25-man guilds were generally the best players since 25-man guilds were all you had for top tier raiding in TBC and WotLK. Thus, most experieced raiders were 25-man raiders.

    Just some things to consider when arguing about which is "easier".

    Personally, I think both have their pros and cons. Some fights seemed easier on 10-man, and others on 25-man.

  19. #299
    The Lightbringer Duridi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    That doesn't make sense at all. If I raid 10 man that doesn't mean I consider 25 man equal in the world first race.
    I never said you did. If you want to read it as that, you are free to do so.

  20. #300
    Just make a frontpage newspost saying that MMO-Champion will consider 10 man and 25 man as different world first races and will make different posts for them from now on. Be an example. Maybe that works better than having moderators telling everyone to not discuss 10 vs 25 man constantly.
    If Blizzard would do something similar and stop trying to make them equal then we might not have our community split in four but in two instead.

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