World First Race:

[Deleted]

It must feel strange for Method when they finally get that world first to know that they only did so because Paragon gave up and downgraded. It's like Andy Murray in the US Open this year. He knows he only managed to win because he didn't have to play and lose to Roger Federer again.

[starkey]

When i started playing, Nihilum & Kungen was the heroes.. So would be cool to see a comeback there...

They come back, but no longer hero's, also only a few are original rest are scrubs from the stream channel that don't know left from right.

[Deleted]

Cant we all just get along?

Stop being silly, this is an internet forum.

[Ryme]

If you look at the facts your statement isn't so absolute:
1. Raids are originally balanced around 25mans, then nerfed to make it viable for 10man. Generally making it easier overall(both heroic and 25m).

Not any more, actually happens the other way around now.

2. 25 decent raiders are harder to find, and keeping the communication on a high level is also tough. Which is why 25m gets more then what 10m has, though getting more doesn't make it easier at all.

Logistics in getting the people is a fair point, but getting loot must help, it's impossible that it wouldn't make it at least somewhat better.

3. 10 man is completely under-tuned this expansion. I've done both so far, and the mechanics were pretty much laughable when we switched. Ignoring mechanics just to heal through them isn't quite the right design.

Statistics are against you: http://www.wowtrack.org/encounters

I digress, 10man and 25man are usually pretty equal and there isn't much difference in terms of difficulty. Neither is better than the other overall, and I wish they would settle on one raid size. That being said, Paragon will probably get world first with Blood Legion shortly behind if you count both. Considering the difficulty difference, BL will be considered the actual world first.

Nope, whoever wins will be considered world first.

[Deleted]

Think we can all guess who'se winning this.

[Haizer]

Not any more, actually happens the other way around now.

Why, because 10mans were first on beta? They were balancing 25man and scaling it down to 10 so people could test.

Logistics in getting the people is a fair point, but getting loot must help, it's impossible that it wouldn't make it at least somewhat better.

I meant easier than 10, not easier than without the extra buffs. I should have worded that better.

Statistics are against you: http://www.wowtrack.org/encounters

Massive numbers vs small numbers makes the numbers skewered. If it was 6000 vs 6000 then you could talk statistics, or at least a little closer. Not a 5500 difference. Not to mention most guilds who do 25man aren't doing it casually.

Nope, whoever wins will be considered world first.

Nah, not by the actual raiders and people who do more than frolic around the bosses after the nerfs.

[Amsden]

25:
1. Blood Legion
2. Method
3. Vodka (even though they tend to slow down quite a bit on the final few bosses I'll still give them 3.)

10:
1. Paragon
2. doesn't matter
3. doesn't matter

I think 10 and 25 should be separate, because there are differences in the bosses so 2 lists is the best way to do it. Sadly this means Paragon has no competition what so ever.

[Ryme]

Why, because 10mans were first on beta? They were balancing 25man and scaling it down to 10 so people could test.

Do you have a source on that?

I meant easier than 10, not easier than without the extra buffs. I should have worded that better.

I'm not sure I follow the point you were getting at now?

Massive numbers vs small numbers makes the numbers skewered. If it was 6000 vs 6000 then you could talk statistics, or at least a little closer. Not a 5500 difference. Not to mention most guilds who do 25man aren't doing it casually.

I'll give you that barely any 25s are doing this casually, but I do doubt how many 10s are at this early stage. As for the low numbers, they're high enough for at least the first 4. After that, it gets somewhat sketchy, but that's when it's considered harder for 10 man any way.

You can read more about how it's calculated here: http://www.wowtrack.org/faq#relative_difficulty

Nah, not by the actual raiders and people who do more than frolic around the bosses after the nerfs.

I'd wager since the majority of raiders are 10 man, they will more easily accept a 10 man winner than you think.

[Papapwn]

lol 10 man guilds being discussed here still is silly.

Come on people get real. Hardcore raiders know what matters, the reason why you see so many more 25 man guilds is because no one serious about raiding goes 10 man.

[Gilian]

I don't think my opinion is more important than that of others, but looking at the level of discussion coming from you and many others, I'd say they're a bit more valid. And that has nothing to do with my position anywhere.

And I'm sorry but you can't undo my statements or arguments with a simple "no you are wrong." When we raided 25-man, we never considered ourselves as partakers in the 10-man 'race' and now that we're 10-man, we don't really consider ourselves as partakers in the 25-man 'race.' There's 2 world firsts up for each boss, and the one you respect more is up to you. But you should respect that not everyone will agree with you. Personally, I respect both to some degree, though the guild I'll respect most will be Method when they take their long-deserved 25HC World Firsts. I (still) think 25HC kills are a bigger deal, but I'm fine with anyone disagreeing.

Considering I'm not the only one thinking this, you really need to stop spewing bullshit and inciting 10/25 flamewars. However stupid it may be, you made your opinion clear and unless you can come up with an intelligent argument for defending it, you can let others decide what it is worth. Meanwhile let other people discuss actually relevant topics and root for their favorite guilds instead of beating a dead horse and enforcing your opinion upon everyone.

Thank you.

But you can say what you want here but no one will ever listen to reason here.

[Deleted]

Still i can't understand how people can say a guild is not WF when they kill it first, just because it is 10 man.

They're world first 10 man. "World first" is meaningless in the current raid model, only "World first 10" and "World first 25" make sense. Personally, what some 10 man guild kills or when is not interesting to me, it's not that big of an achievement when it's just 10 people. But I'm sure it's very interesting to them, and other 10 man raiders though.

Paragon themselves said they are going 10 man because they're no longer able to compete in the 25 man bracket due to the lower quality of the recruit base.

[Theiea]

Vodka is now 4/16H

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...ountains/vodka

[Deleted]

315 guilds with heroic kill already at wowprogress.

The ratio 10/25 for the heroic kills is 159 guilds with 10 man kill and 156 guilds with 25 man kill.

50,48% of the heroic guilds atm is 10ppl.
49,52% of the heroic guilds atm is 25ppl

Right after the list with heroic guilds finishes, 6/6 guilds start been displayed.

So from the spot 316 till 500 in the world, 5(!!!) guilds are 25 and 180 are 10!!!

97,30% of the guilds between 316th to 500th are doing 10
2,70% of the guilds between 316th to 500th are doing 25

And since Paragon breezed through the first bosses as a 10 man the argument for "the hard first boss that is gating 10 mans out of heroic progress" is idiotic!

This is the tier that proves without a doubt how biased the raiding model is.
25s have been strangulated.

246 guilds managed to clear 6/6 normal so far in 25, 156 are already with heroic kill in 25!

A wooping 63,41% of those 25s that managed to have access in heroics, defeated a heroic boss already!

For the 10 man
1363 cleared normals
159 managed to defeat at least a boss in heroic!
That is a 11,67% of the total 10 man guilds with access to heroics only!

Combine it with the low completion rate of normals

12,06% of the 10 man that defeated one boss, managed to finish the tier
20,16% of the 25 man that defeated one boss, managed to finish the tier.

From the above you can see that so much skill and quality is still within the top 25s, yet the size keeps dying.
Paradoxes of a biased system that is strangulating the large teams starting from bottom, heading to top.

Good luck to 25s in one of their last dances :S

[Deleted]

1. Paragon
2. Vodka
3. Method

[ShadowCrafter]

315 guilds with heroic kill already at wowprogress.

The ratio 10/25 for the heroic kills is 159 guilds with 10 man kill and 156 guilds with 25 man kill.

50,48% of the heroic guilds atm is 10ppl.
49,52% of the heroic guilds atm is 25ppl

Right after the list with heroic guilds finishes, 6/6 guilds start been displayed.

So from the spot 316 till 500 in the world, 5(!!!) guilds are 25 and 180 are 10!!!

97,30% of the guilds between 316th to 500th are doing 10
2,70% of the guilds between 316th to 500th are doing 25

And since Paragon breezed through the first bosses as a 10 man the argument for "the hard first boss that is gating 10 mans out of heroic progress" is idiotic!

This is the tier that proves without a doubt how biased the raiding model is.
25s have been strangulated.

246 guilds managed to clear 6/6 normal so far in 25, 156 are already with heroic kill in 25!

A wooping 63,41% of those 25s that managed to have access in heroics, defeated a heroic boss already!

For the 10 man
1363 cleared normals
159 managed to defeat at least a boss in heroic!
That is a 11,67% of the total 10 man guilds with access to heroics only!

Combine it with the low completion rate of normals

12,06% of the 10 man that defeated one boss, managed to finish the tier
20,16% of the 25 man that defeated one boss, managed to finish the tier.

From the above you can see that so much skill and quality is still within the top 25s, yet the size keeps dying.
Paradoxes of a biased system that is strangulating the large teams starting from bottom, heading to top.

Good luck to 25s in one of their last dances :S

The current race proves 2 things about balance of 10 and 25 man raiders.

1) The best players in the world are still doing 25 man raiding since as you say paragon is thrashing the other 10 man raiding guilds.
2) The balance between 10 and 25s is actually really good, so whoever gets the world 1st kill gets the world 1st kill no matter the format.

Paragon was already number 1 in 25 man and now they number 1 in 10 man, nothing changes.

[Duridi]

Paragon is all that counts because they're 10 man. 25 man means nothing. See I can make absolute statements too.

If you look at the facts your statement isn't so absolute:

Honestly. That's a question of definition. For someone who find 10 man to be what counts, the statement is absolute. It's really nothing more than an opinion. If you genuinely believe in one format, that format will be what counts. You can't force a person to think otherwise. It's like debating what's best of chocolate cake and chocolate chip cookies. Everyone have a different opinion on the matter, regardless of which one is, say healthier, than the other. It depends what qualities you are looking for. Same can be said about anything in life, and the 10 vs. 25 man debate is no different. They might be different, but they are also similar enough for people to see them as the same or pick one preference. And, as I pointed out earlier, I do actually think a large majority of the raiding community consider them similar enough to not care for whatever differences they have.

[Xrxes]

Blood Legion is now 5/16 as well, 25 man.

[Vantheus]

In "World First" race only 25 man teams matter, 10 man may or may not be better, may or may not be harder, may or may not make more sense, but they are not in conversation for world first ever, only 25man matters when it comes to first

[Deleted]

Nice to see paragon make a comeback after ds, good luck on Will of the emperor guys!

[Ryme]

So now it comes down to the final fight, I suspect Paragon will probably take the first win here. I hope to see vodka take the second, I love that guild!

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 09:08 AM ----------

In "World First" race only 25 man teams matter, 10 man may or may not be better, may or may not be harder, may or may not make more sense, but they are not in conversation for world first ever, only 25man matters when it comes to first

The times, they sure are a changing.