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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    It isn't nonsensical unless the reader lacks sense.
    It is nonsensical. There are two races. Period. You're talking about some third, abstract race that you've constructed by combining the two actual races. Such a race has very little point given that the actual races are fundamentally different. Being first to kill 10 man version of some boss is completely orthogonal to being the first to kill 25 man version. They're two very, very different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    If you want to treat it as 2 different races, that is cool.
    It is two different races, you're the one trying to treat it as one. You can't just take your 10 man guild and down the 25 man boss, if you wanted to do that you'd have all your work still ahead of you. These things are not interchangeable, they're fundamentally different.
    Last edited by zeophor; 2012-10-11 at 12:49 PM.

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Tiers are supposed to last long enough that 1-2 days difference doesn't really matter. This one might have been one of those tiers if it wasn't cut in thirds.
    Its nothing to do with showing up last long enough content and 1-2 days difference really matter for world first race. Whats relation between split content and time difference for launching content?

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Awh man, mage perspective who doesn't even go to spirit world

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 12:23 PM ----------



    To be fair, at least on MMO-C, the majority seem to support 10 mans counting as world first now: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rld-First-race
    Im glad only 529 ppl is a big enough sample size.

  4. #564
    I'm not at all sure, but I think wowprogress takes account of the time difference when they give the overall ranks. Definitely don't know for sure though, if someone does it'd be great to know!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    I dont know but WoWProgress sometime missreads guilds who have multiple 10man groups as 25 kills. They could make some fixing on this side too.
    To be fair, I think they've done a great job separating them once the separate achievements went, if Blizzard really do bring back the separate achievements that'd solve an awful lot of issues.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyur View Post
    Its nothing to do with showing up last long enough content and 1-2 days difference really matter for world first race. Whats relation between split content and time difference for launching content?
    The difference is that in most tiers (every tier up until this one), 1-2 days isn't the difference between world first and world second. Get it? Nobody cares about any boss other than the last boss. The best guilds in the world steam past most of the bosses within a week or two, then the last boss is where they all meet, and whatever difference there had been usually isn't the difference anymore.

    And I never said there was a relationship between splitting content and the time difference, but rather that by splitting all the content, there are less buffer bosses before the last bosses, so less time before the last people in the race get to catch up before the first US/EU already begin practicing.
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  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Hi Kungen, eventually worked out who you were. You used the exact same name to troll on the Everquest forums. Come on bro, got to try harder than that.
    Oh, damn. You caught me. Time for a new account I think?

  7. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    The time difference was never stopping EU guilds to get World Firsts in past. its only factor for normals that noone care for.
    In ICC Vodka got 7/12H before Paragon even could log into game and still they got WF.
    Well thats the different thing - its skill level of different guilds.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 06:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    The difference is that in most tiers (every tier up until this one), 1-2 days isn't the difference between world first and world second. Get it? Nobody cares about any boss other than the last boss. The best guilds in the world steam past most of the bosses within a week or two, then the last boss is where they all meet, and whatever difference there had been usually isn't the difference anymore.
    You are talking about how race is going for each tire. Thats true nobody cares about any boss other than last boss. Its not necessary - the last boss is where they all meet. If you are right then lets see how stars and kin raiders can reach 5/6 HC before Paragon or any other guild can down end boss. They have about 1-2 days disadvantage in this race.

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    Im glad only 529 ppl is a big enough sample size.
    It is, more than enough: http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm
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  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyur View Post
    Well thats the different thing - its skill level of different guilds.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 06:43 PM ----------



    You are talking about how race is going for each tire. Thats true nobody cares about any boss other than last boss. Its not necessary - the last boss is where they all meet. If you are right then lets see how stars and kin raiders can reach 5/6 HC before Paragon or any other guild can down end boss. They have about 1-2 days disadvantage in this race.
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  10. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by daftone View Post
    It will be method. If paragon stayed 25 it would be them but 10 man is harder so they can't compete with methods 25. They will come in 2nd or 3rd. Blood legion will never be 1st. They had their chance last tier had a whole week head start and lost it. Hell paragon came back after a week ban and would have beat them if they hadn't taken christmas off.
    Oh how this made me lol

  11. #571
    World First = Guild that kills the Boss for the first time without cheating.
    Doesnt matter if they are US, EU, Asian, 10man, 25man, playing with eyes closed or playing from the ground of the sea.

    Compare it to sports: If there is a marathon and you get beaten by someone because he has better shoes or because you had to wait at the start for a few minutes then you still can't claim victory although you may have been faster than him under equal conditions... who crosses the finishline first it the winner thats all! (except the other guy used doping)

    Paragon has been the best guild in the world since late Wotlk and 10man seems to be a little bit harder or at least Gara'jal is a huge contentblocker for 10mans. Saying a worldfirst by them isn't legit is just plain ignorance.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Liebchen View Post
    Paragon has been the best guild in the world since late Wotlk and 10man seems to be a little bit harder or at least Gara'jal is a huge contentblocker for 10mans. Saying a worldfirst by them isn't legit is just plain ignorance.
    Just use terms world first 25m and world first 10m, the discussion gets so annoying...
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  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Liebchen View Post
    World First = Guild that kills the Boss for the first time without cheating.
    Doesnt matter if they are US, EU, Asian, 10man, 25man, playing with eyes closed or playing from the ground of the sea.

    Compare it to sports: If there is a marathon and you get beaten by someone because he has better shoes or because you had to wait at the start for a few minutes then you still can't claim victory although you may have been faster than him under equal conditions... who crosses the finishline first it the winner thats all! (except the other guy used doping)

    Paragon has been the best guild in the world since late Wotlk and 10man seems to be a little bit harder or at least Gara'jal is a huge contentblocker for 10mans. Saying a worldfirst by them isn't legit is just plain ignorance.
    Will of the emperor will be nerfed on 10man once a 25 man raiding guild downs him on 25 man. Apparently it would be almost impossible for paragon to down him at this stage without a little more gear. So maybe next reset.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    To be fair, at least on MMO-C, the majority seem to support 10 mans counting as world first now: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rld-First-race
    To be fair, as it was already pointed at you, when you make a poll, try to include all options and not only the ones that your hurt feelings due to lack of respect for the precious 10 man size, some people, including the OP have.

    If in that poll OP had some common sence, he would add a third option

    Smt like:

    "Neither of the above, there are 2 different world first races since we have 2 different raid sizes"

    But judging from your previous replies to this thread i don't expect you to aknowledge the obvious.

  15. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    To be fair, as it was already pointed at you, when you make a poll, try to include all options and not only the ones that your hurt feelings due to lack of respect for the precious 10 man size, some people, including the OP have.

    If in that poll OP had some common sence, he would add a third option

    Smt like:

    "Neither of the above, there are 2 different world first races since we have 2 different raid sizes"

    But judging from your previous replies to this thread i don't expect you to aknowledge the obvious.
    I seriously have troubles reading your posts sometimes.

    When was this pointed "at me"? I may have missed it.

    "the ones that your hurt feelings due to lack of respect for the precious 10 man size, some people, including the OP have"

    I'm sorry? I'm not sure what you're saying, but you sound bitter about it.

    "But judging from your previous replies to this thread i don't expect you to aknowledge the obvious."

    Care to point out some of my replies that indicate this? Genuine question, I don't like the thought of coming across closed minded where I can help it, so I'll try to correct that.

    As for the poll, yeah, I guess a third "neither" option would be a good boost, still doesn't invalidate that many people have accepted 10s as a valid world first though, does it?
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  16. #576
    Lets put it this way if 10 mans were easier then 25 mans, guilds we've never heard of before would be leading the race right now, well coming 2nd after paragon at least.

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    self-selected sample best sample

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCast View Post
    Lets put it this way if 10 mans were easier then 25 mans, guilds we've never heard of before would be leading the race right now, well coming 2nd after paragon at least.
    You're assuming that the skill level and dedication of the average high end 10 man guild is equal to that of equivalent 25 man guilds. Paragon are an exceptional guild, arguably the best in the world over the last few years, and they will likely dominate now that they've gone 10 man. Most of the rest of the best guilds in the world are 25 man, at least IMO. You'll likely see that over the rest of the tier in the large gap between Paragon and second place. This isn't necessarily true in Korea though, so that's something to note.

    Regardless, 10 and 25 man guilds fight different bosses and shouldn't be compared. If Paragon get world first this tier it'll be 10 man world first, simple as that. If they don't, like for example because one or two bosses are more difficult or impossible on 10 man, they'll still be racing for 10 man world first after some other guild finishes 25 man.
    Last edited by Gondlem; 2012-10-11 at 02:32 PM.

  19. #579
    2 races, 1 for 10m and 1 for 25m. Makes sense and isn't such a big deal?

  20. #580
    People are always going to break things down as much as possible to promote the unique snowflake feeling. Just gotta let them have it all, you can choose what you put value in and what you classify as a significant accomplishment.

    World First
    World First Alliance
    World First Horde
    World First 25 man
    World First Alliance 25 man
    World First Horde 25 man
    World First 10 man
    World First Alliance 10 man
    World First Horde 10 man
    EU First
    EU First Alliance
    EU First Horde
    EU First 25 man
    EU First Alliance 25 man
    EU First Horde 25 man
    EU First 10 man
    EU First Alliance 10 man
    EU First Horde 10 man
    US First
    US First Alliance
    US First Horde
    US First 25 man
    US First Alliance 25 man
    US First Horde 25 man
    US First 10 man
    US First Alliance 10 man
    US First Horde 10 man
    World First <insert time zone here>
    etc. First etc.

    Signed,
    Nerio
    (World First 10 man, US First 10 man, and World First Alliance Stone Gaurd; World First Alliance and US First Alliance Feng)

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