Prot Paladin BiS 5.0.5?

[Antonne]

I can't seem to find a BiS list aside from Askmrrobot, and I've heard multiple times that it's not as accurate as we'd all like it to be. Do we have a best in slot list for prot pallies yet? If so, where can I find it?

Thanks!

[Zoopercat]

Antonne,
I'm one of the people behind Ask Mr. Robot. Our BiS lists are calculated according to your specific character and options. For example, if you're Human and get a 1% EXP racial bonus, perhaps you don't need as much EXP/HIT on your gear, so the items might change.

Fun side note: if you take all of the options for every spec (racial bonuses, professions, including/excluding legendary items, etc), there are billions of possible combinations of BiS lists. We cache the most popular 25 million on our servers so they load super fast. If your character's list isn't in that list, it will still load fast, just not ROBO-FAST!

That being said, we're currently working on tweaking the Paladin stat weights, which will likey change a few items around. We're working with Theck, and he does so much theorycrafting, I trust pretty much everything on his blog.

[Antonne]

Hey Zoopercat,

Thanks for the reply. I played around with your website today after my raid ended and I decided it was closer to what I was looking for and expecting than I had originally thought, though I do look forward to your changes you referenced. I'll keep an eye on your site and continue referencing it for my future needs, thanks!

[Judge40]

That being said, we're currently working on tweaking the Paladin stat weights, which will likey change a few items around. We're working with Theck, and he does so much theorycrafting, I trust pretty much everything on his blog.

I'm presuming (and hoping) that means we'll be seeing some default stat weight options with hit/exp being the priority.

[Ceronys]

Antonne,
I'm one of the people behind Ask Mr. Robot. Our BiS lists are calculated according to your specific character and options. For example, if you're Human and get a 1% EXP racial bonus, perhaps you don't need as much EXP/HIT on your gear, so the items might change.

Fun side note: if you take all of the options for every spec (racial bonuses, professions, including/excluding legendary items, etc), there are billions of possible combinations of BiS lists. We cache the most popular 25 million on our servers so they load super fast. If your character's list isn't in that list, it will still load fast, just not ROBO-FAST!

That being said, we're currently working on tweaking the Paladin stat weights, which will likey change a few items around. We're working with Theck, and he does so much theorycrafting, I trust pretty much everything on his blog.

Sites like this are the reason for soooo many baddies. I just looked at it.... WRONG!!! The new/casual players rely on these sites heavily. You should make sure they are correct before releasing them. A casual player will not know wtf a stat weight is and therefore, will not change them. ie. askmrrobot says Colosus is BiS enchant..... FAIL!

[Nairobi]

Sites like this are the reason for soooo many baddies. I just looked at it.... WRONG!!! The new/casual players rely on these sites heavily. You should make sure they are correct before releasing them. A casual player will not know wtf a stat weight is and therefore, will not change them. ie. askmrrobot says Colosus is BiS enchant..... FAIL!

Emphasis mine.

Taken from Wrathblood @ EJ as of 08Nov:

At 10-man damage levels, Colossus appears to beat everything pretty handily in TDR right now. I won't include any haste because it should impact all their proc rates similarly.

At 6 procs/minute, that's 48k/minute in shields or 800 dtps. I crunched my numbers a little differently from Theck, but the general result was in the same ballpark. The 200 Haste and 200 Mastery from Windsong requires 213K dtps (blockable physical dps, that is) which is vastly beyond anything even 10-man heroics will throw at you.

Obviously you wouldn't be trotting Windsong into heroic Will, though, right? You'd bring Dancing Steel or Riversong. Lets try out Riversong because it seems like it'd be the best at TDR. 45% uptime on 1500 Dodge is an average of 675 Dodge.

As Theck demonstrated in his follow-up to Damage Smoothing, the more Hit and Exp you stack (and Haste, but that's another topic) the better Mastery gets. By the time you've capped Hit and Exp, Mastery becomes better at TDR than Parry or Dodge. So, 675 Dodge isn't as good as 675 Mastery for reducing damage. While the exact % will vary from gear-set to gear-set, with the set I'm using its roughly 75% as good.

Riversong is a good bit closer, but the breakeven merely drops to 118K DTPS (dodgeable damage, that is). Which is still multiple times higher than the nastiest 10H MSV fights.

Part of the issue is tank swaps. If you're only tanking Feng half the time, then your overall melee DTS won't be as high as your "effective" melee DTS when you're actually on him. The problem with this is that Colossus is winning by more than a factor of 2. Its winning by a factor of 5 or more. If you could Dodge or Block Stone Guard's Rend Flesh (you can't, this is just hypothetical), it would be by far the closest, but it still only gets you up to 40-50k DTS, 1/2 to 1/3 your break-even.

Colossus is actually better on tank swaps (a lot of them on this tier) because Dodge becomes valueless when you're no longer taking melee swings. But there is almost always some sort of AoE going on to be absorbed so Colossus ends up retaining some percentage of its value.

So, that handles TDR. The question then becomes which handles burst better. Neither is controllable so that's out. Really, we're looking for which will be up the most often and take the biggest bite out of that damage. But what constitutes a "burst period"? This will vary from fight to fight, but I would say its 4-5 seconds. River Song is up a flat 45% of the time, so it will be up, roughly speaking, for 45% of your burst period.

A simplistic way of looking at it is that the length of your burst period as a % of Colossus's proc frequency is the likelihood of you getting a proc during the burst. Colossus procs roughly every 10 seconds, so with a 4-5 second burst period, you have a 40-50% chance of getting a proc during that period or roughly comparable to River Song. So, Colossus has better TDR and comparable burst reduction to River Song. Yikes. I didn't see that coming.

I'm not ready to anoint Colossus the new BIS enchant until I've thought things through a bit more, plus I'm partial to Dancing Steel over River Song anyway. Colossus vs Dancing Steel is an interesting tradeoff, very similar to Haste vs Mastery in a way with one bringing more TDR and the other bringing more DPS. But, if this holds up, the new enchant hierarchy would go something like:

Dancing Steel = Colossus > River Song > Windsong > Weapon Chain

TL;DR - Colossus is highest TDR and smoothing enchant currently and in 5.1. DS is an appropriate counter if you value tank dps throughput higher. Don't be the bad you're complaining about

[silverhatred]

The issue with those calculations is that river's heart is 1650 not 1500. And on all of the logs ive seen of it the uptime is more than 60%.

[Nairobi]

The issue with those calculations is that river's heart is 1650 not 1500. And on all of the logs ive seen of it the uptime is more than 60%.

So then let's be generous and give it 65% uptime (which seems quite high, but for the sake of this discussion we can start there). It works out to 1072.5 dodge. Keeping with the above assumption that dodge is ~ 75% as valuable as Mastery/Haste, it'd be worth the equivalent of 803 Haste/Mastery. Extrapolating from that, the minimum dodgeable damage taken per sec needed would be 106.5k..which is a bit of a stretch in this tier at best.

Also, keep in mind, that it still requires that damage to be dodgeable. IE no magic, no bleeds, no DoTs, no AoEs.

I agree that Colossus looks underwhelming on paper, but you can't argue with it's static 800DTPS reduction on all damage.

The above math may be off slightly, as I'm doing this on a post-it at work without really knowing Theck/Wrathblood's coefficients, but I'd wager its close even with the inflated 60% uptime.

I'd be interested in hearing what alternatives folks are suggesting, as I'd be more prone to hop on the Dancing Steel train than River Song given how nontrivial tank dmg is right now.

[econ21]

Sites like this are the reason for soooo many baddies.

So if more people gear like Theck, they will be baddies? Have you read his blog? Stuff like this:

http://sacredduty.net/2012/09/12/mop...-carlo-b16048/

The blog is clearly so full of fail.

/sarcasm off

[Ninaran]

That being said, we're currently working on tweaking the Paladin stat weights, which will likey change a few items around. We're working with Theck, and he does so much theorycrafting, I trust pretty much everything on his blog.

What about MrRobot giving me 9,23% Hit and still prioritizing forging Parry->Expertise on an item with Parry/Hit? Shouldn't it reforge Hit->Expertise instead once I'm already on cap?