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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by kilj View Post
    Not true.. I crush ranged atm in the raids... Your melee must just be bad...
    ...or your ranged must just be bad? It goes both ways, mate. Fact of the matter is, mechanics do not favor melee, and sims do not favor melee. I don't see why your experience can't simply be a matter of gear and skill, and not so much a representation of how class balance is at the moment.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    so today i got replaced by a range class (mage) and they got to elegon now im thinking about taking a break until the end of the expasion anyone else feels that way ? i dont have fun with my rogue anymore im still good at DPS i was 1 place on the stoneguard and the second boss but got replaced by mage on soulbinder :/ theres 2 options 1) quit 2) reroll
    Sometimes you gotta take one for the team. Don't get butthurt because the raid setup is important to your guild, this time you sit out, next time another person most likely will. And like some people said, it is the first week and you are in a team, the mage who sat out and then came in to replace you, don't you think he wanna raid as much as you? :-)

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tibben View Post
    Has someone forgotten about rogue legendaries in Cataclysm? World of Logs would like to have a word with you. How about Majordomo Staghelm or Baleroc in Firelands where you got the opportunity to stand behind the boss the entire time smacking him around? Sure some fights are biased towards ranged, just as some fights are biased toward melee. How bout in WotLK when every Ret paladin and DK was wielding Shadowmourne and tearing up the charts while the lowly ranged players were crying themselves to sleep at night? Yep, ranged classes sure do "always have the upper hand no matter what the situation is".
    While I will grant you the Majordomo encounter, due to it being rather unfriendly for ranged chars... the other two examples you mentioned had melee classes carried by their asses by legendaries. How do legendaries represent class balance? I can do the same thing:
    Remember back in Firelands, where ranged had that Dragonwrath staff? Yeah, melee classes sure do "always have the upper hand."

    On the topic of Cataclysm, why not go through all the tiers and see how much of a chance the melee had?
    - Tier 11: Absolutely horrible for melee. No arguing here.
    - Tier 12: Another detestable tier for melee; Bethtillac, Baleroc, Rhyolith,... Every boss was extremely hostile towards the melee, except for Domo.
    - Tier 13: Some "neutral" encounters, like Yorsajh. A few ranged-encounters, like Zonozz and Warmaster. Generally just fights that had you stand still. Not a bad tier for melee, but not a good one either.

    So, through all of Cataclysm, there was ONE SINGLE FIGHT where the melee had a clear advantage, while there were SEVERAL where the ranged had the upper hand.

  4. #24
    Bloodsail Admiral Shambulanced's Avatar
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    I think what we're feeling at the moment (as rogues) is the frustration other specs typically feel at the beginning of an xpac-see also, resto shammies, as an example.

    Comparatively, we're not doing so bad. DKs have superior aoe right now because of its simplicity and the fact that runes are more reliable than energy as a resource mechanic and can be gamed. Warriors have stupid high burst aoe but on my combat, even against similarly geared warriors that are played well, I manage to catch up because of the godsend that is BF. I haven't encountered any DPS Gerald yet so I can't compare, and the monks I've run with were terrible (I'm pretty sure there is more to monk ds than spamming spinning crane kick). Ret is solid in aoe if played well.

    Tank aoe damage, especially blood and ret, is so stupidly high it does frustrate me. I don't like being out dpsed by a tank, regardless of circumstances. If anything, I think that should be nerfed.

    Single target, I am coming out solidly above most other melee-ers I encounter, and usually above most ranged. Elemental shamans, who have stupid burst right now (my guildy regularly bursts dungeon bosses for 140k+) are the only spec that consistently beats me, PROVIDED that I start a fight with my cool downs ready. Elemental also has devastating cleave right now. It's absurd. They're like Unholy Dks were at the beginning of Cata. But even then, as the fit length spans out I can pass elementals so long as they don't get a second chance to Ascend,

    Tl;dr: grind roics, get crafteds and better gear. Learn to optimize your CDs. Playing rogue right now, despite quality of life buffs that mop brought, actually takes a little more skill to be competitive. Don't worry about what WoL/theory rafting says. As long as you do better than the DPS you're grouped with, you're doing well. We'll keep harassing blizz to help us out, but in the meantime, that's no excuse for you to rise to the challenge.

    Edit-sorry for typos, done from my stupid phone
    Quote Originally Posted by flick86 View Post
    It is not and never will be elitist to expect another player to know how to play his class and carry his own weight.

  5. #25
    i was "forced" to go tank as mainspec for MoP because our guild didn't want more than 1 - 2 melee dps, but i have to say i kinda like tanking :P

    It's sucks pretty hard though that range most of the times have the upper hand in raids.

  6. #26
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tibben View Post
    Has someone forgotten about rogue legendaries in Cataclysm? World of Logs would like to have a word with you. How about Majordomo Staghelm or Baleroc in Firelands where you got the opportunity to stand behind the boss the entire time smacking him around? Sure some fights are biased towards ranged, just as some fights are biased toward melee. How bout in WotLK when every Ret paladin and DK was wielding Shadowmourne and tearing up the charts while the lowly ranged players were crying themselves to sleep at night? Yep, ranged classes sure do "always have the upper hand no matter what the situation is".
    No I haven't forgotten but that question apply to you have you forgotten that Firelands legendary is also a caster easy bezey legendary? which make the first kill of pre nerf spine hc was full of arcane mages with legendaries? the reason I said range classes always will have the upper hand I'm not talking just about numbers and dps..this is not the main issues here the main issues is that casters have the upper hand of being more mobile in bosses encounters + better view vision of the encounter + no expertise aka no dodge or parries at all which makes it no need to go behind the boss..these are facts that make the range classes always better than melee you can't ignore that.
    Last edited by Velshin; 2012-10-08 at 07:11 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by tibben View Post
    Has someone forgotten about rogue legendaries in Cataclysm?
    Not that those have anything to do with ranged versus melee.

    World of Logs would like to have a word with you.
    See, the funny thing here is, being top dps is often not the same as being a good contributor.

    Lets take "beatyfaceman", back in ICC. This was the fourth boss, the corrupted orc with the purple resource bar. He summoned beasts. Ranged had to kill the beasts, and at times had to KITE the beasts while other ranged finished them off. Melee could throw a little damage at them, but they mostly just tunneled the boss. So, to look at the meters, the melee were the only ones that mattered on Saurfang, but a full group of melee couldn't beat that boss. To add to this, if you replaced ALL your melee with ranged, you'd still do just fine- with the exception of rogue dps and legendary plate, the ranged were right up there single target, and that minor difference wouldn't have mattered. The ranged actually did the mechanics and won the fight, so comparing your arcane mage to your mutilate rogue didn't make sense at all, and if your rogue didn't show you could drop in another mage, but if your mage didn't show you could NOT drop in another rogue.

    DS simply balanced melee to be higher on a fight with full uptime, after the pain that melee endured in previous Cata tiers, especially the first one. Blizzard's stated goal is for melee and ranged to be generally equal on a fight with no movement, swapping, or time off boss, but even this seems odd. Melee is normally ok with movement, ranged is normally fine with time off boss (because they minimize it), and swapping is normally more spec dependent.


    There's been plenty of fights where a 10m group is punished severely for having 3 melee and 2 ranged as dps, but essentially none where 2 melee and 3 ranged is punished- in fact, I'd be surprised if anyone can name more than 3 fights since all of Lich King that were substantially harder or even impossible if you only brought ONE melee dps, but I can name plenty of fights that weren't completable with just one ranged.


    How about Majordomo Staghelm or Baleroc in Firelands where you got the opportunity to stand behind the ss the entire time smacking him around?
    Staghelm has two phases, one where you have everyone close up, and one where people spread out. You could bring an entire group of ranged to this fight and succeed, but an entire group of melee would be a wipe when it was progression. You normally picked your highest dps to stand out- in our kills, this started as me, a shadow priest, and a mage, and then after we went BACK to scorp phase, it was me and the priest, and then later, just me. His second phase involves him jumping around, but he doesn't punish (via a pbaoe silence or anything) ranged that stand close. The only issue is that melee can't support standing at range (obviously), so ranged get stuck with that job. Yet another fight where the melee are entirely optional, and the ranged are actually important because they do the mechanic.

    Baleroc became VERY difficult with extra melee. Mostly, ranged got to stand still on him too- the only penalty was when ranged were moving in and out of a crystal. Again, this could have been minimized if the whole group was ranged- you would take your highest dps members and put them at close range, so they wouldn't have to walk far. But why didn't everyone stand in melee? Because the debuff would have crushed you, and the other fight mechanics would be terrible too. This fight at least forces players to move (but doesn't force melee out of melee range much), and as such could be argued to favor melee in total damage done, but for execution of fight mechanics this fight was also about range. Again, this fight would be not completable in current tier with only one ranged dps, but would be doable with no melee at all.

  8. #28
    Herald of the Titans Asmodias's Avatar
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    So this may sound harsh, but you seem to have your two options. As you stated in your original post... either you quit or you reroll. I would assume, based on the fact that you didn't offer this as an option, changing guilds is not in the cards. So, roll a die. Odd means you quit, Even means you reroll. Based on the way you wrote your original post and a follow up I read, I would think rerolling and stepping away from the Rogue for a bit is the right option, but then again... what do I know. I stepped away from the game for a few months a couple weeks ago. I have to detox >.>


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  9. #29
    Honestly, I can't blame the OP's guild. Aside from cleave fights, I feel extremely lacking. My dps is acceptable, but I bring so much less than almost everyone else. I raid 25m so having 1/25 take 50% less damage from a raid wide AE is far less useful than most of the stuff hybrids offer (raid cooldowns, free healing, etc). Ranged also get screwed less by mechanics (aside from the first phase on spirit kings). Yeah, if we can cleave, out dps is great and high enough to warrant wanting.

    And I guess this is one of those things where it is easier for us on 10m, but I can't cleave the big adds on elegon. It dies so fast they basically pull it straight out

    And lets not bring up fights where ranged "had" to go out and do stuff (like Deathbringer Saurfang, Domo, etc). Its not that ranged "had" to go out, it is that it was absolutely stupid to have melee do it. You could absolutely have ranged stack on the boss. In fact (I don't know how this happened) when we got out first hm Saurfang kill we had like 5 ranged stack on the boss with the melee because we didn't have that much melee. You could do the same with Domo, if you had enough ranged, some of them could stay in the center and not soak an orb. None of those count towards melee being better, in fact they are all melee being a liability because they pretty much can't do those things.

    Spine also doesn't really count for anything. It was a very specific mechanic requiring 20 seconds of massive burst. That had nothing to do with range vs melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Only in damage, not in utility and damage absorb capability in current content.
    Every DK, ret, rogue and monk I saw took less damage than the ranges. Your healers will be glad.
    Sorry, but thats a bias load of crap just like the flip side you are arguing against. Do you know what Vamp Embrace does (and its not alone)? Ranged dps helps out healers plenty, it just isn't usually by taking less personal damage themselves.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2012-10-08 at 08:49 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    ...it just isn't usually by taking less personal damage themselves.
    Well, actually... Ranged are often preferred exactly BECAUSE they take less damage. They have a much easier time evading random shit on the floor. Think of the Stone Guard. As a rogue, I had trouble even dps'ing because I had to move so much, and I'd always run into the occasional, unavoidable trap every now and then. Ranged do not have that problem so, unlike melee, they do not take unnecessary damage.

  11. #31
    I normally take less damage than ranged on progression fights, because of feint. I don't think that's an advantage of melee in general, any more than charge or death grip is.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Well, actually... Ranged are often preferred exactly BECAUSE they take less damage. They have a much easier time evading random shit on the floor. Think of the Stone Guard. As a rogue, I had trouble even dps'ing because I had to move so much, and I'd always run into the occasional, unavoidable trap every now and then. Ranged do not have that problem so, unlike melee, they do not take unnecessary damage.
    Sorry, I was unclear. I meant actual in game abilities that helped healers.

  13. #33
    I feel like I can contribute a lot to my raid team. We raid 10 man and do pretty well. I take way less damage then all the other dps. Have great dps myself. I feel that as a rogue you should be able to play all 3 speccs to be a real asset to your team though.

  14. #34
    all I have to say to this is LMAO.

    Infracted
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2012-10-09 at 01:50 PM.

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