Intellect or Spirit?

[Raugnaut]

While I don't know too much about the effective values of Int vs Spirit, I can say that the correct usage of spells goes a VERY far way- In the many Stone Guard encounters I have been doing in raiding group 2 of my guild, the other 2 healers were going oom before the boss was under 100 mil, whereas I was sitting around 200k mana.. I suggested to them that they start triaging rather then rushing to top everyone off, and use their Nourish equivalent more rather then their high mana per cast time spells, and suddenly, while ppl were sitting at 50% for the majority of the fight, we got to 60% and the healers had higher mana (Around that time, the off tank messed up the taunt rotation, again, and we wiped due to 2 out of phase overloads, rather then the other 2 healers going oom and being unable to heal)

Im pretty certain that mana will no longer be a problem for future attempts. I do have to say this, however- Intellect or Spirit, if you are using the wrong spells at the wrong time, you may as well gem pure expertise for all the healing throughput itll give you.

[Thalur]

The game actually gives some advice on where to get spirit, and where to get int. Most people generally agree on Int > Spirit > other secondary stats. So in cases where you can trade Int for Spirit 1:1, use int. In other cases (like 1:2 for gems), use spirit.

Gear: use all items with spirit
Trinkets: use static int with manareg (Price of Progress/Vial of Ichorous Blood > Empty Fruit Barrel)
Flask: 1000 Int > 1000 Spirit
Food: 300 Int > 300 Spirit
Gems: 160 Spirit > 80 Int (red: Purified Imperial Amethyst > Brilliant Primordial Ruby, blue: Sparkling River's Heart > Purified Imperial Amethyst)

IMO, there's not a lot room for personal opinion here. This is how you should approach raiding in blues.

[Ashrr]

That doesn't mean I couldn't do the same and with the spirit I have end up having more mana than you. That's kind of the point of spirit, to gain mana and then use that extra mana instead of having your heals heal more.

I would much rather have my hots ticking for more during a typical heroic progression burn phase, especially since you often get locked into channeling Tranquility around that point.

[Turvakapsu]

The game actually gives some advice on where to get spirit, and where to get int. Most people generally agree on Int > Spirit > other secondary stats. So in cases where you can trade Int for Spirit 1:1, use int. In other cases (like 1:2 for gems), use spirit.

Gear: use all items with spirit
Trinkets: use static int with manareg (Price of Progress/Vial of Ichorous Blood > Empty Fruit Barrel)
Flask: 1000 Int > 1000 Spirit
Food: 300 Int > 300 Spirit
Gems: 160 Spirit > 80 Int (red: Purified Imperial Amethyst > Brilliant Primordial Ruby, blue: Sparkling River's Heart > Purified Imperial Amethyst)

IMO, there's not a lot room for personal opinion here. This is how you should approach raiding in blues.

There are some more subtle little tweaks you can do. What if you had alchemy, for example? Would you take 1320 intellect or 1500 spirit? What about a +60int socket bonus? Would you sacrifice 160 spirit for 140 intellect? What about a +60 spirit red gem bonus? 220 spirit + 80 intellect or 320 spirit?

Other places where this can crop up are other profession perks and gearing choices.

Those are situations where personal opinion does crop up quite well and it's just up to the player to decide what he wants to do in that situation.

[Maxvla]

I'd like to see what kind of a balance you're getting with stuff.

Unbuffed:

Int 13,503
Spirit 7128
SP: 18,644
Haste: 3093 (closest I can get)
Mana Regen: 14,045
Combat Regen: 10,022
Crit: 948
Mastery: 2703 (15.63%)

ilevel: 469

Gems in use:
Burning Meta (Int)
2x Purified (blue)
2x JC Int (red/pris)
1x Reckless (yellow)
1x Brilliant (red)

[Ayeri]

I'm going all-int as always.
I always found spirit to be rather appealing in unorganized raids/parties/whatever, 'cause you're just overhealing too much most of the time - and even more so with maxed Int. As soon as you're raiding with an organized team and get to know the fights, Intellect beats Spirit by far, at least imho.

[Ashrr]

Unbuffed:

Int 13,503
Spirit 7128
SP: 18,644
Haste: 3093 (closest I can get)
Mana Regen: 14,045
Combat Regen: 10,022
Crit: 948
Mastery: 2703 (15.63%)

ilevel: 469

Gems in use:
Burning Meta (Int)
2x Purified (blue)
2x JC Int (red/pris)
1x Reckless (yellow)
1x Brilliant (red)

Take out that reckless if you're at 3093?

[Maxvla]

Then I would be under cap. Also old gem in pants I can't seem to replace. Shado-pan monastery hates me

[Ashrr]

Then I would be under cap. Also old gem in pants I can't seem to replace. Shado-pan monastery hates me

Mind linking your armory? I have no trouble reaching 3043 without using any haste in gems and my ilvl is lower than yours. I do have +170 haste in gloves though because I couldn't find the mastery one when I enchanted these. Gonna switch now and see how things are with the breakpoint.

Edit: Replaced with the mastery enchant and Reforgelite still takes out of Mastery to meet the breakpoint, so nothing really changes. I'm not ready to reforge out of Spirit just yet.

[Maxvla]

Well the main thing is I've been trying for Shado-pan legs every day since I hit 90 and they haven't dropped. When they do I'll have to re-do all of my haste so I've just been keeping it close enough for now. Keep thinking, just one more day then I would sit down with the calculator and get the reforge perfect... and another day...

I tried using that Reforgelite addon a guildie mentioned but it must not be updated. Was spouting out all kinds of wrong information.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Niches/simple

[Ashrr]

Well the main thing is I've been trying for Shado-pan legs every day since I hit 90 and they haven't dropped. When they do I'll have to re-do all of my haste so I've just been keeping it close enough for now. Keep thinking, just one more day then I would sit down with the calculator and get the reforge perfect... and another day...

I tried using that Reforgelite addon a guildie mentioned but it must not be updated. Was spouting out all kinds of wrong information.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Niches/simple

It seems to work for me. What happens if you remove the reckless but reforge the mastery from your shoulders or belt into haste? I haven't had much luck with legs either :<

[Maxvla]

Problem is the leg gem slot is yellow so I don't know what to do with it if not reckless. The Shado-pan legs are red socket. Now you know what I mean about getting the legs fixing everything, heh.

[Fenixdown]

What about when their Darkglow procs?

You're saying because they have no professions and you have some you're going to even out in regen with them? Assuming they have professions aswell you'll fall behind significantly in regen by having that extra 320 intellect. That's a very odd analogy you have.

They're not tailors, silly. :P In fact, their professions give them no additional spirit boost over mine.

[Turvakapsu]

They're not tailors, silly. :P In fact, their professions give them no additional spirit boost over mine.

That's really odd to say something like "I'll catch them once my ~700 passive spirit goes off". There is really not anything that should be considered as a proc when talking about spirit, it can all be made passive and nothing changes.

If they haven't got any spirit bonuses from professions, that's a... minus for them, I guess.

[Cambria]

This is what it comes down to:

Stack Spi on any mode and spam weak spells.
Stack Int on any mode and play smartly with strong spells.

Unless you are awful, int/other secondaries will be stronger.

The answer to early content is now not 'be able to cast as many spells as needed'. It's play correctly and have your other healers play correctly. 'There is always a time to use mana' is a really bad way of thinking of healing.

Changing the way you do encounters and the way you heal will lead to more stable and effective throughput and raid stability than having more regen and spamming weak heals.

Claiming that the only way Int is better is if you give up long fight viability means you are healing wrong, end of story. The better your heals are, the less you need to heal. That's not 25man only. That's not farm content only. That's always. Raid damage goes up and down but heals still do a certain amount of healing. Overheal isn't worse than having to cast double the amount of spells.

In 25 man you have more options for regen, in 10man you have 2-3 people covering 10 people. Raid synergy and healing synergy is significantly easier in 10 mans when considering trying to heal as effectively as possible.

The point is:
The amount of mana you gain from spirit does not give you enough extra heals to even closely equate the amount of extra healing all your spells will do by putting that into other stats. That's not opinion or playstyle, it's numbers.
Stack Spi and have more heals where you can play mediocrely and use the incorrect heals, or use that for throughput, play right, and lead to better hpm, effective throughput, and raid stability. I'd rather just play better.

Hamlet isn't saying 'drop all Spi'. He's saying don't change the way you always think about spi. Change the way you problem solve going into an encounter, don't just stack spi and assume that's going to be some kind of buffer.

[Turvakapsu]

-snip-

So, where do you cut on your spirit then? Reforge some to mastery?

[Maxvla]

So, where do you cut on your spirit then? Reforge some to mastery?

IMO, the only stat worth sacrificing spirit for is int, and when close to a breakpoint, haste. Mastery is only about half as effective as int.

[Cambria]

So, where do you cut on your spirit then? Reforge some to mastery?

I don't like reforging out of Spi personally, just never into it.

In a perfect world:
Gem for socket bonuses and take throughput stats over regen, enchant throughput, use two regen trinkets, and use the highest ilvl gear regardless of not having spi on it is probably the best set up right now for a good balance.

For gear: Haste Cap > Highest ilvl > Spi(7k) > Mastery > Spi(7.5k) > Crit > Extra Spi > Extra Haste
For reforging same ignoring ilvl ofc.

Sadly, world isn't perfect and it's not that easy:
Between gems, enchants, food, gear, and reforging I aim at 7-7.5kish spi always choosing Int 1st, Haste cap and Spi second, mastery, then crit.

Most people are saying 7.5kish is about what you should have. I'd say about 8 if you have lower gear or play with not so stellar healers.

In 3 minutes 480 spi gives you 1 extra RJ. 480 mastery makes all your heals 1% stronger. Mastery will only be weaker than spi if you are playing very well(not perfect, but correctly), not have a total clusterfuck mess up, and still be oom and really struggling. Which is why it's not 'stack full spi', it's 'take as much as you need'.

[Turvakapsu]

I don't like reforging out of Spi personally, just never into it.

In a perfect world:
Gem for socket bonuses and take throughput stats over regen, enchant throughput, use two regen trinkets, and use the highest ilvl gear regardless of not having spi on it is probably the best set up right now for a good balance.

For gear: Haste Cap > Highest ilvl > Spi(7k) > Mastery > Spi(7.5k) > Crit > Extra Spi > Extra Haste
For reforging same ignoring ilvl ofc.

Sadly, world isn't perfect and it's not that easy:
Between gems, enchants, food, gear, and reforging I aim at 7-7.5kish spi always choosing Int 1st, Haste cap and Spi second, mastery, then crit.

Most people are saying 7.5kish is about what you should have. I'd say about 8 if you have lower gear or play with not so stellar healers.

That's pretty much what I've been going for right now. As I previously said about spirit, it's good as long as you can utilize it to it's fullest extent (which at max. looks something like 8.5k spirit, 8k ish is most likely a good value imo).

I thought you did something boldly different than I do (and what all the guides in everywhere say) and was interested because of that. Spirit differences in the small numbers (500-1.5k) don't really change the playstyle much at all.