Warriors and the hate...

[Youwow]

long story

If your hammer only crits for 45-50k with all cooldown popped then you are green geared. Hammer goes easily to 80k+ with full cooldowns and are you still able 2 spam it during wings?

[Nyaldee]

Lol another idiot. Bubble is on a 5 minute cooldown with a debuff that prevents us from using BoP. Bubble hearth? We couldn't even do that an expansion ago, and the only reason we can do it now is cause of a glyph. I feel like anyone who would do that is an idiot as well. No we don't need a shield for bubble, but bubble only lasts 8 seconds. And can be dispelled by your shattering throw.

-Fear, charge stuns/interrupts, and a ranged silence sound pretty good for a melee class. (EDIT: Didnt mention Pummel and Shockwave, but you can count those too if you want.)
-What class isn't gear dependent? As far as I know there aren't other classes that have natural inborn resilience more than others.
-Im a ret, I can't go invis either
-You cant dispel stun, but you sure as hell can reflect mine.
-Colossus Smash reduces armor
-Charge is better than running up to them.
-Not all Defensive CD's for warriors require a shield. Rallying cry doesn't need one I dont think, though I could be wrong.

Cry more about your arms warrior, plz. That feeds me.

Another clueless guy comparing apples to oranges...

In case you didn't know ret paladin is THE BEST support dps spec only rivaled by shadow priests (and both have completly different niche so you can't compare their relative power).

If you want a fair comparison then here it goes:
1. Strong offhealing - check.
2. Ranged (!!!) 6 sec (!!!) stun - check.
3. Ability to self-cleanse root/snare - check
4. Snare immunity for teammates - check (can be used 2ce in a row becouse no1 in their mind will skip Clemency talent for PvP)
5. Physical dmg immunity usable on teammates - check (can be used 2ce in case of hardswap or on same target 1 min later)
6. 30% dmg reduction for 12 (!!!) sec for teammates - check (can be used 2ce bla bla)
7. Complete dmg immunity - check (and whatever you say it's probably the strongest defensive ability in game, not to mention that 9 of 11 classes can't counter it at all and rest 2 can be prevented from doing so).
8. Dmg destributed between magic and phys + melee and ranged - check.
9. AOE blind - check.
10. Instant undead/demon fear - check (counters DKs 3 min cd, prevents silence from lock, counters lichborne, reduces dmg pressure from locks/dks).
11. Team immunity to interrupts/silences with tied in 20% magic dmg reduction - check.
12. 40% personal magic dmg reduction every min - check.

If you still fail to realise that you're talking about 2 completly different classes and comparing their abilities totaly ignoring their skill sets as a wholle then you're beyond help. But i suspect that you're random BG hero who never even played ret seriously in arena, don't have team support macroses and is unsatisfied with rets no matter how many utility tools they get becouse you never use any.

Comparing ranged 30 sec silence that DRs itself with ability almost every other class have and doesn't prevent repositioning with 6 sec ranged stun that doesn't DR with common CCs, prevents repositioning, setups CC chains, allows hardswaps. Man you're hopeless...

P.S. I'm merely curious why so many posters come with arguments "your class ability X is better then my class ability Y", when as a wholle their classes skillsets are different. Just go ahead and say "your X is overpowered (low cd, high dmg, big burst - whatever )". I guess only way to achieve global ingame happiness is to merge all classes in 1 and get done with it.

[Youwow]

Another clueless guy comparing apples to oranges...

In case you didn't know ret paladin is THE BEST support dps spec only rivaled by shadow priests (and both have completly different niche so you can't compare their relative power).

If you want a fair comparison then here it goes:
1. Strong offhealing - check.
2. Ranged (!!!) 6 sec (!!!) stun - check.
3. Ability to self-cleanse root/snare - check
4. Snare immunity for teammates - check (can be used 2ce in a row becouse no1 in their mind will skip Clemency talent for PvP)
5. Physical dmg immunity usable on teammates - check (can be used 2ce in case of hardswap or on same target 1 min later)
6. 30% dmg reduction for 12 (!!!) sec for teammates - check (can be used 2ce bla bla)
7. Complete dmg immunity - check (and whatever you say it's probably the strongest defensive ability in game, not to mention that 9 of 11 classes can't counter it at all and rest 2 can be prevented from doing so).
8. Dmg destributed between magic and phys + melee and ranged - check.
9. AOE blind - check.
10. Instant undead/demon fear - check (counters DKs 3 min cd, prevents silence from lock, counters lichborne, reduces dmg pressure from locks/dks).
11. Team immunity to interrupts/silences with tied in 20% magic dmg reduction - check.
12. 40% personal magic dmg reduction every min - check.

If you still fail to realise that you're talking about 2 completly different classes and comparing their abilities totaly ignoring their skill sets as a wholle then you're beyond help. But i suspect that you're random BG hero who never even played ret seriously in arena, don't have team support macroses and is unsatisfied with rets no matter how many utility tools they get becouse you never use any.

P.S. Comaring ranged 30 sec silence that DRs itself with ability almost every other class have and doesn't prevent repositioning with 6 sec ranged stun that doesn't DR with common CCs, prevents repositioning, setups CC chains, allows hardswaps. Man you're hopeless...

This Trogdora is a green geared paly i believe he hasnt even got a clue about serious pvp

[Jawless Jones]

you are kidding me right?

warriors have had a total of three, count them, THREE, bad seasons. EVER. they've had about as many BAD seasons as ret paladins have had GOOD seasons.

in BC the only way i could beat WLD was if their druid was a brain dead retard and couldn't get their warrior out of snares or i could abuse the Z axis. in wolk i spent the entire match kiting because if i let a warrior get near me he would bladestorm on my face and either, I, or my pet would DIE. If at any time during S9 i was thrown down, i would DIE.

i'm happy warriors are optimal in 3v3 again, but i am getting sick to death or all these warriors chest beating about great it is to be good in pvp when they forget their long and illustrious history of success in arena.

just because you've had a few bad seasons doesn't entitle you to be mongo for the next one. by that reasoning enhance shamans have about 10 seasons worth of OP saved up.

it seems like you had terribad healers in wrath and failed at kiting (i assume you are a hunter).

how the hell you died in a throwdown is mind-boggling, were you wearing pve gear by any chance?

---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 12:41 AM ----------

Youre an idiot. I did mention WoG for pallies. I mentioned sacrifices as utility. Mana burn a pally, FoL... wait, everything that costs mana is useless. :/ Judgment does restore mana but... it would suck if you really need to cast FoL but you couldn't cause youve been pressured by a mana burning priest.

Never mentioned Warriors breaking poly. I said they could break fears, and if Im right like I think I am, I believe they can also break Saps?

The only thing you really burned me on was the hand of sacrifice for a blind/poly break. I didn't think of that when I wrote my post

---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 07:50 PM ----------



Lol another idiot. Bubble is on a 5 minute cooldown with a debuff that prevents us from using BoP. Bubble hearth? We couldn't even do that an expansion ago, and the only reason we can do it now is cause of a glyph. I feel like anyone who would do that is an idiot as well. No we don't need a shield for bubble, but bubble only lasts 8 seconds. And can be dispelled by your shattering throw.

-Fear, charge stuns/interrupts, and a ranged silence sound pretty good for a melee class. (EDIT: Didnt mention Pummel and Shockwave, but you can count those too if you want.)
-What class isn't gear dependent? As far as I know there aren't other classes that have natural inborn resilience more than others.
-Im a ret, I can't go invis either
-You cant dispel stun, but you sure as hell can reflect mine.
-Colossus Smash reduces armor
-Charge is better than running up to them.
-Not all Defensive CD's for warriors require a shield. Rallying cry doesn't need one I dont think, though I could be wrong.

Cry more about your arms warrior, plz. That feeds me.

- Hammer or fist of justice, run speed boosts, ranged slow either with talent or easily instant cast buff, you have a pummel as well....

- priests with pvp set bonus get more resil with bubble i think, but that has nothing to do with warriors and paladins.

- oh yeah its so easy to reflect your stun, i mean its like warriors have warning about when you're about to use it and all /endsarcasm, me thinks you shouldnt cast it when the warrior has spell reflect up

- pallys in general dont worry about armor because all their damage is HOLY apart from white swings

- and if the person manages to get out of range of the warrior (coz its soooo hard to peel lawl, its like theres no CC in WoW anymore) once charge is on cd?

- does lay on hands require a shield? hows about blessing of prot? hand of freedom? no? divine shield? does hybrid healing require a shield?

[Lord Gaga]

Nerfs are coming now. I have started playing my ancient warrior again, and when I do something like that with any class, nerfs arrive in a few weeks.

Sorry, warriors, but at least I may get a reason to play my dk again.

[hirazu]

I play mainly Unholy Death Knight but also a Shadow Priest.

On my Priest there is NO WAY for me to get a single cast off againt a warrior who sits on me... (with cast time ofc, instant is instant)
Charge interupt (x2 if specced in to dubble time)
Gag order
Pummel
Shockwave
Spell Reflect
Mass Spell Reflect
Disrupting shout
Immunity to fear
immunity to roots

THATS 8 WAYS TO STOP ME FROM CASTING! 10 IF I WOULD BE AN IDIOT AND JUST STAND THERE AND TAKE HITS WHILE CASTING! CAUSE YOU ARE IMMUNE TO ALL MY CC!

Combind all that with amazing burst and dmg overall = Dead Priest


Edit: so pleas tell me, how am i supposed to beat a warrior?
KK my dots might slowly withle you down a bit but whats this?: Second Wind

How to deal with Second Wind: Save CD's and burst! Sure ill take that!
But For F sake! I cant burst Because I frikkin need to cast to get Shadow Orbs to be able to burst.

GG

[Gatsu]

Stop whining about Warriors CC, every class in the game have an absurd amount of it. You're just used to warriors having NONE.
The only problem with them is offensive CD stacking. Period.

[aeser]

while warriors are awesome as hell now and i am in no way denying this, and even agree they are slightly overpowered (slightly, mages, hunters, druids, etc. are also godmode at the moment, we're not the only class doing very well).

the data however may be surprising:

http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/

#1 3v3 comp: rogue/mage/priest
#2 3v3 comp: rogue/lock/shaman
#3 3v3 comp: mage/spriest/rdruid
#4 3v3 comp: priest/shaman/lock
#5 3v3 comp: WARRIOR/dk/hpaly

top overall pvp classes by representation:

1: paladin
2: priest
3: druid
4: mage
5: shaman
6: WARRIOR

and to everyone saying "being under powered in the past does not justify you being overpowered now" i'm betting you weren't saying that when YOUR class was overpowered. in this game there has never been any semblance of class balance, there have always been underpowered and overpowered classes, so yes, being shit all of the last expansion kind of does entitle us to finally be viable once again.

sure it would be nice if they could ever actually balance classes once and for all but since i'm not about to hold my breath, this is the dynamic we deal with.

and while warriors have had previous days in the sun, there have been several seasons where they were not viable, willfully ignoring this does not make it not true.

name me a season when rogue/mage/priest was not decent to godly? or rogue/lock/shaman since people discovered it's amazing synergy? locks have been pretty consistently godly since arena began with maybe 1-2 slightly unviable seasons. WLD and TSG may have been 2 decent warrior comps in history but even when they were doing well they rarely topped the charts (unlike RMP/RLS/wizard cleaves).

it's funny the stick people have up their asses whenever a melee class does well.

[aeir]

while warriors are awesome as hell now and i am in no way denying this, and even agree they are slightly overpowered (slightly, mages, hunters, druids, etc. are also godmode at the moment, we're not the only class doing very well).

the data however may be surprising:

http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/

#1 3v3 comp: rogue/mage/priest
#2 3v3 comp: rogue/lock/shaman
#3 3v3 comp: mage/spriest/rdruid
#4 3v3 comp: priest/shaman/lock
#5 3v3 comp: WARRIOR/dk/hpaly

top overall pvp classes by representation:

1: paladin
2: priest
3: druid
4: mage
5: shaman
6: WARRIOR

and to everyone saying "being under powered in the past does not justify you being overpowered now" i'm betting you weren't saying that when YOUR class was overpowered. in this game there has never been any semblance of class balance, there have always been underpowered and overpowered classes, so yes, being shit all of the last expansion kind of does entitle us to finally be viable once again.

sure it would be nice if they could ever actually balance classes once and for all but since i'm not about to hold my breath, this is the dynamic we deal with.

and while warriors have had previous days in the sun, there have been several seasons where they were not viable, willfully ignoring this does not make it not true.

name me a season when rogue/mage/priest was not decent to godly? or rogue/lock/shaman since people discovered it's amazing synergy? locks have been pretty consistently godly since arena began with maybe 1-2 slightly unviable seasons. WLD and TSG may have been 2 decent warrior comps in history but even when they were doing well they rarely topped the charts (unlike RMP/RLS/wizard cleaves).

it's funny the stick people have up their asses whenever a melee class does well.

That thing is outdated as hell.. It's based on the last season, not this one.

Rogues are utter shit now.

[Nyaldee]

Edit: so pleas tell me, how am i supposed to beat a warrior?

Play in a team? Atm locks/mages can do obscene dmg if unchecked, resto druids can cc the fuck out of warrior, dk's can reduce warriors uptime a lot with double grip/root/stuns/preassure. I'm curious how you fought unholy DKs past couple expansions becouse any competent one could stomp SP 1v1 with eyes closed and still SPs were perfectly viable in multiple arena setups and were better off then DKs for wholle previous expansion.

There're legitimate concerns about warriors burst dmg, but SP complaining about other class utility ignoring shitloads of tools he have (hymns, offheals, speed boosts, fears, horrify, leap of faith, hp swap, silence) is shameless. I don't even want to mention dumb burst that happens when SPs procs allign and you're eating MB/MSx2/DP/MB with dot ticks inbetween.

Seriously stop comming at wars with your Durotar dueling expirience...

[Dundebuns]

As an Enhance I cannot kill a warrior who has second wind one on one, but then again, he can't kill me. I can kite him till the cows come home, but I can't get enough pressure on a clever one when he hits the 35% health limit. I start to make head way and I get stunned, or he leaps away until his health is stable and then charges back in. :<

[hirazu]

Play in a team? Atm locks/mages can do obscene dmg if unchecked, resto druids can cc the fuck out of warrior, dk's can reduce warriors uptime a lot with double grip/root/stuns/preassure. I'm curious how you fought unholy DKs past couple expansions becouse any competent one could stomp SP 1v1 with eyes closed and still SPs were perfectly viable in multiple arena setups and were better off then DKs for wholle previous expansion.

There're legitimate concerns about warriors burst dmg, but SP complaining about other class utility ignoring shitloads of tools he have (hymns, offheals, speed boosts, fears, horrify, leap of faith, hp swap, silence) is shameless. I don't even want to mention dumb burst that happens when SPs procs allign and you're eating MB/MSx2/DP/MB with dot ticks inbetween.

Seriously stop comming at wars with your Durotar dueling expirience...

you are just angry becasue you play a warrior and know they will get nerfed hard!

you have no ide of my pvp exp, and warrior stomp every class atm, if he uses cds he will own cause of massive dmg and very good CC on casters. and guess what he cant be CC'ed combine that with any other classes in 3v3 and i bet you if you have anything behind that think skull of yours the warrior team have a MAJOR UPPER HAND!

dont even get me talking on 2v2 and duells (i know not balanced around it, but you know what? ITS OUT THERE SO BLIZZ SHOULD TAKE IT IN TO CONSIDERATION)

[aeser]

That thing is outdated as hell.. It's based on the last season, not this one.

Rogues are utter shit now.

it WAS outdated, but it started updating the other day (when it hadn't changed since the end of last season) due to the new season, it is based on new data.

[Youwow]

you are just angry becasue you play a warrior and know they will get nerfed hard!

you have no ide of my pvp exp, and warrior stomp every class atm, if he uses cds he will own cause of massive dmg and very good CC on casters. and guess what he cant be CC'ed combine that with any other classes in 3v3 and i bet you if you have anything behind that think skull of yours the warrior team have a MAJOR UPPER HAND!

dont even get me talking on 2v2 and duells (i know not balanced around it, but you know what? ITS OUT THERE SO BLIZZ SHOULD TAKE IT IN TO CONSIDERATION)

Please enlighten me how come warriors cant be cced???

[Dcruize]

it WAS outdated, but it started updating the other day (when it hadn't changed since the end of last season) due to the new season, it is based on new data.

If you're sure it's updating then it's 100% not configured for MoP - it's basing its stats on level 85 players, probably because it's still set to filter out non-level85 teams. Look at the top players - all level 85s.

[ati87]

while warriors are awesome as hell now and i am in no way denying this, and even agree they are slightly overpowered (slightly, mages, hunters, druids, etc. are also godmode at the moment, we're not the only class doing very well).

the data however may be surprising:

http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/

#1 3v3 comp: rogue/mage/priest
#2 3v3 comp: rogue/lock/shaman
#3 3v3 comp: mage/spriest/rdruid
#4 3v3 comp: priest/shaman/lock
#5 3v3 comp: WARRIOR/dk/hpaly

top overall pvp classes by representation:

1: paladin
2: priest
3: druid
4: mage
5: shaman
6: WARRIOR

and to everyone saying "being under powered in the past does not justify you being overpowered now" i'm betting you weren't saying that when YOUR class was overpowered. in this game there has never been any semblance of class balance, there have always been underpowered and overpowered classes, so yes, being shit all of the last expansion kind of does entitle us to finally be viable once again.

sure it would be nice if they could ever actually balance classes once and for all but since i'm not about to hold my breath, this is the dynamic we deal with.

and while warriors have had previous days in the sun, there have been several seasons where they were not viable, willfully ignoring this does not make it not true.

name me a season when rogue/mage/priest was not decent to godly? or rogue/lock/shaman since people discovered it's amazing synergy? locks have been pretty consistently godly since arena began with maybe 1-2 slightly unviable seasons. WLD and TSG may have been 2 decent warrior comps in history but even when they were doing well they rarely topped the charts (unlike RMP/RLS/wizard cleaves).

it's funny the stick people have up their asses whenever a melee class does well.

If we take your numbers as true (which is already proven not to be true) then we can do the following conclusion.

The only dps class that are stronger then warriors are mages, everbody above warriors will most likley be healers which your own data proves.

#1 3v3 comp: rogue/mage/priest = healer
#2 3v3 comp: rogue/lock/shaman = healer
#3 3v3 comp: mage/spriest/rdruid = 1 healer
#4 3v3 comp: priest/shaman/lock = 1 of them is healer
#5 3v3 comp: WARRIOR/dk/hpaly = healer

So according to your own data we need to nerf warriors and mages (which we actually should because half the problems are caused by the arms race of mages vs warriors).

Also

Warriors have been OP for most of the game, their may have been times that they couldn't take out the entire team alone but that shouldn't be a issue. Most warrior posers are under the impression that being weak solo and being unstoppable in a group is a bad thing.

Also I fail to understand why warriors are easier to CC. Sure you don't have a CD to become immume to CC but most classes are like that, and the ones that can become immume are usually tied to decent/long cooldowns so it can only be used during key moments.

And finally Blizzard should just nerf warrior and mage control and stop this arms race which hurts every other class. I may be wrong but if I look at all of the talents and ability's it seems to me that both mages and warriors have more ways to control then ever before.

[Mihalik]

I am pretty biased on this topic as for over 6 years I have been a one trick pony, and that pony was my Warrior.

Also I never really done very serious arena stuff, more like some for shits and giggles from time to time. I'm to much of a PvE Hero.

Over the years it is true that most of the time we were from viable to great in PvP, short of the couple of seasons when we where the laughing stock of the universe.

Now on point. I really think the problem has several aspects, one is Burst, the other people just being acostumed to facerolling warriors in 1v1. After MoP changes others feel as they dont really recognise the class they are figthing anymore. Warriors appear to be using to many tools, some that were literally never seen before in PvP (like Gag Order, only prot flag runners used to have it) Die by the Sword makes them feel like they are fighting a Rogue (instead of dodging its parrying) and Avatar feels like a damn ret pally with HoF (before they needed an actual Pally to give them one). All in all none of the utility talents are in any way imbalanced or too strong.

The real problem is with stacking cooldowns just as back in Cata. Warrs would line up everything and burn you to zero in seconds. In cata Blizz tried to fix it but the solution was a retarded overkill, they murderd utility and mobility AND BURST, breaking the class completly and never fixing it.

Avatar/Banner/Reck/CS/Shock is just tooo much synergy. The problem is that warrior PvE dps is designed around this Synergy. (Look at the tier 14, 4 piece set bonus that will align Reck with Banner and Avatar or BB.) Without it warrior dps is craptastic. Also execute is fucked. I get it. Execute must be nice but right now DPS difference betwen Execute Phase and the rest of the fight is around 10k to 20k, its moronic.

With our current toolbox we still need a good Burst talent on a normal mid range cooldown, but to be balanced a shit ton of this burst must be swaped from Burst and Execute to sustained damage sources. That would pretty much make warriors normal in PvP and keeping them decent in PvE.

We need the toolkit, we really do and its great to have some raid utility too. But some of that burst has to go away and become sustained dps.

P.S. Mages who are awstruck that they have been killed by a warrior....go die in a fire. Keyboard turning mages have been farming warriors for way to long for no fucking reason whatsoever. A good mage has a more then good fighting chance. Baddies STFU and GTFO.

[Livic]

I'll just answer with a "L2P". Just because warriors are doing good dmg now doesn't mean we are overpowered.

2/10 too obvious

[Gotjuice]

I am pretty biased on this topic as for over 6 years I have been a one trick pony, and that pony was my Warrior.

Also I never really done very serious arena stuff, more like some for shits and giggles from time to time. I'm to much of a PvE Hero.

Over the years it is true that most of the time we were from viable to great in PvP, short of the couple of seasons when we where the laughing stock of the universe.

Now on point. I really think the problem has several aspects, one is Burst, the other people just being acostumed to facerolling warriors in 1v1. After MoP changes others feel as they dont really recognise the class they are figthing anymore. Warriors appear to be using to many tools, some that were literally never seen before in PvP (like Gag Order, only prot flag runners used to have it) Die by the Sword makes them feel like they are fighting a Rogue (instead of dodging its parrying) and Avatar feels like a damn ret pally with HoF (before they needed an actual Pally to give them one). All in all none of the utility talents are in any way imbalanced or too strong.

The real problem is with stacking cooldowns just as back in Cata. Warrs would line up everything and burn you to zero in seconds. In cata Blizz tried to fix it but the solution was a retarded overkill, they murderd utility and mobility AND BURST, breaking the class completly and never fixing it.

Avatar/Banner/Reck/CS/Shock is just tooo much synergy. The problem is that warrior PvE dps is designed around this Synergy. (Look at the tier 14, 4 piece set bonus that will align Reck with Banner and Avatar or BB.) Without it warrior dps is craptastic. Also execute is fucked. I get it. Execute must be nice but right now DPS difference betwen Execute Phase and the rest of the fight is around 10k to 20k, its moronic.

With our current toolbox we still need a good Burst talent on a normal mid range cooldown, but to be balanced a shit ton of this burst must be swaped from Burst and Execute to sustained damage sources. That would pretty much make warriors normal in PvP and keeping them decent in PvE.

We need the toolkit, we really do and its great to have some raid utility too. But some of that burst has to go away and become sustained dps.

P.S. Mages who are awstruck that they have been killed by a warrior....go die in a fire. Keyboard turning mages have been farming warriors for way to long for no fucking reason whatsoever. A good mage has a more then good fighting chance. Baddies STFU and GTFO.

I don't know warrior pve but it reads like you know what you're talking about so lets say that it is correct. Then they need to go back into a PvE spec and a PvP spec. Where the PvE spec has all them cooldowns to stack or whatever but severely lacks mobility. Maybe move some talents into specialization abilities or something. You just can't have crazy mobility/cc like they have now and the damage they do. Also Second Wind.

[Woop Woop]

Wrong.
And by the way, a class been overpowered or bad in pvp in the past doenst justify being overpowered or bad now.

I think it does, kinda like how mages/locks haven't had 1 terrible season