Thread: PvP Ele, no dmg

Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
  1. #181
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Waterloo, ON
    Posts
    21,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Chainreactor View Post
    All i see is hopeless optimism from this guy Endus



    Pops Ascendance
    Kills Random guys in BG
    This is the way PvP Works

    What the hell LOL

    Bro u can spin tales all u want and write walls of meaningless text but it doesnt change the fact that Ele Shaman has the weakest defense, inferior tool kit and is the easiest to lock down in comparison to Mage / Lock / Spriest
    Hey, look, someone else who isn't reading a damn thing I'm writing. Even the bits he quoted. Like the bit there where I said "Sure, this is them being bad".

    There aren't two sides to this. Just because I don't agree with the idea that Elemental is the worst thing since Hitler and Stalin's lovechild, that doesn't mean I'm "hopelessly optimistic", as anyone could tell just by reading literally anything I've written. Since the beta, I've been saying we're a bit undertuned for PvP and could use some love. How is that "hopelessly optimistic"?

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Velthari View Post
    But endus im sorry i will have to disagree with you on the thunderstorm thing as then that means the glyph is purposely being nerfed and whats your thought on my other 2 proposals the backlash effect and shock shared cd getting removed

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-24 at 12:39 PM ----------

    RE:shell im doing the same thing ur doing also but what i do in my 3s is Flame Shock>Elemental Blast>Lava Bust>2nd Flame shock>Unleash Elements(if Lava Surge procs)>LavaBurst >Ancestral Swiftnes>Ascendance>Lava Burst> once Ascendance is over instant Elemental Blast>Fulmination. At this point the target is dead or the healer just blew all his cds to keep them alive.

    Also a note to take when you get a lava surge proc it will still allow you to lava burst even if you get interrupted casting the previous lava burst.
    Where do you find bad enough opponents to pull that off? When I pop ascendance, I'm permanently CC'd. That's of course in case I'm not the primary target, which I usually am, meaning I'm interrupted everytime I try to cast LvB.

    P.S No, elemental is not terrible. But it's still in bad place compared to mage/lock/SP.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Hey, look, someone else who isn't reading a damn thing I'm writing. Even the bits he quoted. Like the bit there where I said "Sure, this is them being bad".

    There aren't two sides to this. Just because I don't agree with the idea that Elemental is the worst thing since Hitler and Stalin's lovechild, that doesn't mean I'm "hopelessly optimistic", as anyone could tell just by reading literally anything I've written. Since the beta, I've been saying we're a bit undertuned for PvP and could use some love. How is that "hopelessly optimistic"?
    Er? Elemental Shaman is the worst Caster Spec in PvP

    Compared to the other Caster Specs our
    -Burst is RNG and unreliable
    -Defense is crap
    -Toolkit is weak
    and u call it "a bit undertuned"

    Ur posts are indeed filled with hopeless optimism and delusional theorycrafting which frankly i did enjoy reading because it gave me a good chuckle

  4. #184
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    420
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Quite a lot of classes/specs have cc abilities that do not punish them when they make a mistake while still having a negative impact on the target, whereas elemental shamans their abilities result in a punishment if not used correctly.

    Tremor / purge are examples of abilities that will not be punished if used incorrectly (unless you tremor when you are not feared). Or at least the consequences are minimal.

    Capacitator totem/totemic projection, wind shear, thunderstorm, hex, are abilities that need to be used correctly or you get punished (as in the ability will do nothing and puts in on cd).

    If a mage polys into your grounding, he can poly again right away. If he misses your cast with cs he still blankets you. If a warrior charges you when ts is available he either charges you again or he heroic leaps to you. Shockwave is a braindead aoe stun where there is no punish for using it incorrectly. You could only argue about the timing, but the spell will always do something and has a consequence for the ele. I guess you get the point I'm trying to make w/p having to go over each spec/spell.

    Basically it doesn't matter for many classes if they play perfect or not vs ele, whereas the ele needs to play perfect to avoid it. On top of that nearly every class has some sort of immunity, which ele doesn't have. Therefore it may look like the other guy has to play perfect, but actually it's not.
    While I don't agree that some of the specific shaman abilities you used are too punishing, I do think that the classes that perform well in arena are successful, in part, because their margin for error is broader than ours, in terms of CC. This doesn't mean that I think hex should be spammable or that wind shear should count as a silence in addition to an interrupt. But perhaps thunderstorm could stun IF the target is immune to knockbacks/movement impairing effects; or capacitor could reset IF it is destroyed/avoided. These aren't good examples but the point is to allow some room for mistakes.

    The other issue is that too much of our burst is tied to a cooldown. But when we look at caster dps classes that are doing well in arena they can provide burst without having to use their longer cd's. And it may be because they have a better resource system. A mage freezes someone, they get Fingers of Frost which leads to shatter combos dealing high amounts of damage; a priest casts mind blast to gain Shadow Orbs which leads to devouring plague dealing high amounts of damage and healing. A warlock uses incinerate to build up Embers which leads to the very hard hitting chaos bolts.

    Our damage/utility/cc is fine in bg's and rated bg's but it just doesn't translate well to arena.There are any number of ways to address this issue and others but if we had a larger margin for error when it comes to our cc and the ability to deal burst outside of ascendance, they could leave our defenses where they are and we'd be fine.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  5. #185
    one thing is certain ,if no change is giving in 5.1 i am not sure what blizzard are seriously thinking? Well i do not play 3v3, maybe its way way different in 3v3. Blizzard states themself its not balannced around 1v1 but 3v3. Ok? It makes sence cuz of the sane amount of a healer can do in a short period of time, lets not argue about if its correct or not. I read some comments and it was like elemental is still bad in 3v3, he cant do anything rly. Thats how it is in 2v2 for me, i play at rly low rating but iam still trying.

    Pop every defensive cooldown i have, i even have that talent which reduces dmg taken by 40, that encahnt weapon thing.
    But its like its almost impossible anyway. If i dont pop my defensive cooldowns i die literally in 4sec, maybe less maybe more sometimes. THats way to fast tbh, its vs two people. Hell i can die in seconds by one truth to be told, atleasst before when hunter used his burst on me, they fixed that bug so iam not sure. But not only burst from them i mean burst from pretty much very many classes, rogue can do shittons of dmg for example believe it not...



    I rabble and rabble, elemental is really good btw, they should nerf it hard

  6. #186
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Waterloo, ON
    Posts
    21,913
    Quote Originally Posted by maaci View Post
    one thing is certain ,if no change is giving in 5.1 i am not sure what blizzard are seriously thinking? Well i do not play 3v3, maybe its way way different in 3v3. Blizzard states themself its not balannced around 1v1 but 3v3. Ok? It makes sence cuz of the sane amount of a healer can do in a short period of time, lets not argue about if its correct or not. I read some comments and it was like elemental is still bad in 3v3, he cant do anything rly. Thats how it is in 2v2 for me, i play at rly low rating but iam still trying.
    2s aren't balanced. They aren't intended to be balanced. 3v3 and rated battlegrounds is where the focus on balance is.

    I think Elemental's mostly fine for RBGs, but a bit too vulnerable in 3s. But the gap isn't as great as some people are claiming.

  7. #187
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    420
    I wonder if they could make pvp power scale with individual abilities the way spellpower and attack power do. That way they could tune individual classes damage/healing up or down as needed without affecting everyone else and without impacting pve.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    I wonder if they could make pvp power scale with individual abilities the way spellpower and attack power do. That way they could tune individual classes damage/healing up or down as needed without affecting everyone else and without impacting pve.
    That's a good idea, but it might take to much work for them to ever try. People have been asking for a separation of PvP and PvE for years (i.e. abilities act/scale differently depending in PvE or PvP). I remember a blue post a long time ago saying this would make the game to complicated for players. Personally I hate that argument, but there are more casual/baddies than there are competent players.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Croc View Post
    So I main spec resto, I'm full dreadful, I switched to ele for some fun in bgs but...wheres the dmg? My lava burst hit for 40k....40k come on thats pittyful. Yes, sometimes 2 or 3 go off at once but thats rng. I macro'd all my burst together, asendance, bloodfury, fire elemental, and spirtwalkers grace (4 set resto makes me immune to silence). With all this popped I still have a hard time killing..well anything. Plus even being full dreadful I seem to die in silences. The only thing I can think is ele is not a burst class but a utility class. If I'm doing something wrong please say, don't go on that its because I'm resto gear, I still have tons of pvp power. Anyone out there ripping it up? lol, please post a vid
    I tried elemental PvP, though bad geared I could only do half of the dps of enhancement who was (back then) equally bad geared as well.

  10. #190
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    993
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The idea that our toolkit is appreciably worse than others' is just absolute bollocks.
    Never said our toolkit is worse, it just requires better play as it's more punishing than a bunch of other classes their toolkits. Or if you want: the skillcap is much higher than many other specs their toolkits. And on top of that most specs have a way to escape the fight/pressure (cloak, bubble, deterrence, ice block, ams, dispersion, ...).

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No, every single one of your examples involves a Shaman playing badly, and the other player having everything available at all times and using them in perfect performance to counter whatever we do.
    ...
    Yes, a Warrior can Charge twice. You've also got multiple slows and roots. Once Avatar is fixed and it's no longer CC immunity, Warriors should be challenging but killable; right now it's that 20 seconds of "lol no way to stop me" that makes Warriors insane, it's not the Charges, which can and should be kited.
    If you really classify a shaman getting shit all over from a warrior as playing 'bad', I really doubt you have a good understanding of the warrior abilities. And if you think that Avatar is the only problem with warriors you are wrong as well. With safeguard on a 30s cd, double charge and heroic leap on 30s cd (glyphed) they can reach you anywhere on the map. Not to mention they have a ranged blanket silence with glyph of gag order. They have 3 slows (heroic strike, piercing howl and hamstring), an AOE stun on a 20s cd that can do more dmg than lava burst and they can shield wall / defensive stance / 1h/shield in 1 global. Really a warrior doesn't even need avatar to be on top of an ele 24/7.

    A warrior has to play absolutely terrible to not shit all over an ele shaman, and the ele shaman should use his abilities absolutely perfect. And even then the odds are still in favor of the warrior. And frankly this is true for pretty much any melee vs an ele: they require far from excellent play whereas it does require really good play from the ele to survive.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Never said our toolkit is worse, it just requires better play as it's more punishing than a bunch of other classes their toolkits. Or if you want: the skillcap is much higher than many other specs their toolkits. And on top of that most specs have a way to escape the fight/pressure (cloak, bubble, deterrence, ice block, ams, dispersion, ...).



    If you really classify a shaman getting shit all over from a warrior as playing 'bad', I really doubt you have a good understanding of the warrior abilities. And if you think that Avatar is the only problem with warriors you are wrong as well. With safeguard on a 30s cd, double charge and heroic leap on 30s cd (glyphed) they can reach you anywhere on the map. Not to mention they have a ranged blanket silence with glyph of gag order. They have 3 slows (heroic strike, piercing howl and hamstring), an AOE stun on a 20s cd that can do more dmg than lava burst and they can shield wall / defensive stance / 1h/shield in 1 global. Really a warrior doesn't even need avatar to be on top of an ele 24/7.

    A warrior has to play absolutely terrible to not shit all over an ele shaman, and the ele shaman should use his abilities absolutely perfect. And even then the odds are still in favor of the warrior. And frankly this is true for pretty much any melee vs an ele: they require far from excellent play whereas it does require really good play from the ele to survive.
    There will be no more Glyph of Gag Order, and theorycrafting sucks. Besides, everyone has a problem with warriors because they are on top of everyone 24/7. I think that posts comparing X class to warriors, should be ignored.
    Last edited by Qiqtz; 2012-11-04 at 02:18 PM.

  12. #192
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    420
    I understand where you are coming from but, for me personally, that's more of an issue with warriors than with elemental. I don't currently play a warrior but I do have 2 (1 is 68 and the other is 76) and I really like the abilities they have despite getting shit on by them all the time. In my opinion if they fixed two things they would be slightly easier to handle: disrupting shout and shockwave range reduced from 10 yards to 8. I try as much as possible to stay in their dead zone, so they can't charge, but even then you can't cast because of their stun and their shout range. They could still use spell reflect(s) but that ability has an obvious graphic so its avoidable (unless your latency is crap like mine and you can't see it till its too late). Avatar and gag order are being addressed already, the slow on heroic strike requires a glyph, and piercing howl is a talent so they have to make a choice to opt into those which are fair trade-offs, in my opinion.

    Getting back on topic.

    I was mulling over what Endus was suggesting about Frost Shock doing damage equivalent to 5 stacks of fulmination... how about they make frost shock work with fulmination?

    We get our 7 charges and then we have the option of either using frost shock or earth shock.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  13. #193
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    993
    Quote Originally Posted by Celltrex View Post
    everyone has a problem with warriors because they are on top of everyone 24/7.
    That's exactly the point I'm making: that it has little/nothing to do with ele shamans playing bad and warriors playing good when they sit on you 24/7 (since my post was an answer to such a statement).

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-04 at 03:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    I understand where you are coming from but, for me personally, that's more of an issue with warriors than with elemental....
    True so it has nothing to do with playing good/bad like I said, and arena will look definitely different for ele when warriors/mages are tuned down and with the BM fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    I was mulling over what Endus was suggesting about Frost Shock doing damage equivalent to 5 stacks of fulmination... how about they make frost shock work with fulmination?
    Yeah ... and I wouldn't even mind flame shock eating up LS charges either (i.e all shocks consume your LS stacks through a glyph).

  14. #194
    Forgive me, as I haven't had time to read through everything everyone has posted, but personally the things I view as needing a change are as follows:

    1. Capacitor totem to be detonated when you see fit (think mushroom-esque design), rather than a 'time-bomb'.

    2. Healing spells and lightning abilities separated from the same school. As it currently stands, if our core filler is locked down, we can't really defend ourselves particularly well, and if our healing is locked down, we can't readily go on the offensive. It feels like interrupts are too punishing for us.

    3. In line with other suggestions, I would propose that either frost shock is removed from the shared shock cooldown, or in some way interacts with our LS charges.

    4. Hex should reduce mobility a bit (perhaps 30%?). Whilst Hex should have some weaknesses as it is effectively a total silencing of the enemy player, as it currently stands it feels that enemies under the effect are able to get distance / LoS easily enough that it's not such a vulnerability.

    5. [New Cooldown Idea]: 2 minute cooldown, 10 second duration. "Your lightning bolts become super-charged, knocking back the enemy target by X yards". This ability affects EoE and mastery procs. I thought this might be quite a nice distance-builder / interrupter, but in doing so forcing the caster to use lightning bolt rather than their more powerful abilities such as Fulm / lava burst.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    Yeah great take away an ability and put it in a talent net gain right? Or mediocre defensive cd that can't be used when silenced or stunned, net gain right?

    If you think Elementals defenses have improved over Cata in a PvP sense then I don't know what to say except get out of the 1200 bracket and fight competent opponents. You have to look at what other classes got in MoP as well, you can't just look at a narrow analysis of past and present.



    The healing surge buff was nice I'll give you that. Ancestral Guidance for PvP lolololol! Wow you should actually PvP before commenting, just saying. Any DPS will sit on you making the talent worthless for PvP. At least with HTT you get a few ticks before they kill it.




    Yeah, and teams just leave a freecasting elemental shaman alone when they pop ascendance . Stop justifying bad play from your opponents as a success. If Ascendance had a immunity to silences/interrupts then you might have a point, but they can't add that because it will make resto OP.



    Yeah competent players just let capacitor go off. The only class the reduced TS helps against is DK's, other melee its just a mild nuisance. And by additional mobility you mean the 15% run speed nerf right? There's no point to giving a class a snare/root and then making every melee practically immune to them. Add in dispels and good luck keeping any melee off you.






    So if elemental did 1% more damage in PvE from level 85 to 90 and other classes did say 100%, then you would say that is an improvement?




    That was a bad attempt at a joke. Sarcasm doesn't come across well in forums.
    all this is extremely true sad to say. yes we got gains from cata to mop but the gains are nothing compared to other classes. ascendnce r main source of dmg is good but its on a 3min cd a mage deep freezes u and can nuke 250k + within that 5secs and u cant do anything about it cos ur stunned. so r 3min cd is actually trash if u look at the other classes. as for keeping melee off u there is literally only 1 possible way and thats with frozen power talent just spamming frost shock on them, again only works if they dnt have a healer with them otherwise its insta despelled but doing this just makes ur dmg even worse and tbh i didnt even think that was possible i have 2 agree with this guys 1st statement stop playing at 1200mmr, i play 2.2k mmr on both my mage and warlock and i cant even get past 1800 on my shami as ele its really annoying as i go play 2v2 lose to bads at 1800 and then just relog cos i know if i was on my mage/lock i cud 1v2 lol

  16. #196
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    420
    Been trying to think of ways they could increase our sustained damage and burst potential outside of ascendance and its pretty difficult but here goes:

    Make casted Lava Burst do x% more damage than Lava Surge procced Lava Burst, adjust Ascendance accordingly. And/or add a change to clearcasting that makes our next 2 nature damage abilities (earth shock, elemental blast, lightning bolt) automatically crit. They'd have to make a change to clearcasting so that we're not in that state 100% of the time.

    From reading the forums here and on the official site, it seems that while raiding elementals feel they are in a better place than they were last expansion, the spec could use an improvement in sustained single target dps. The swing in dps because of rng seems like it may be a bit too much. I think this could help, plus it does it in such a way that doesn't effect enhance since they seem to be fine as is.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •