Yes there are other tools like capacitor totem and totemic projection, but there is also ghostwolf snare immunity that is gone. If we could have it all yeah, it would be a gain, but we cant, it goes always at the cost of something else.
shamans's do some great damage, the catch is you have to get chain casts in and current pvp environment that is rather tough to do.
See above for why those kinds of comparisons are malarkey. Everyone lost passives. And now you have 40% Astral Shift, and 20% Primal Earth Elemental or Rockbiter fury unleash, and better healing, etc.Combined with glyph of elemental mastery that was 42% dmg mitigation. Now we have a 40% astral shift.
You're ignoring the changes to other classes in the relative comparison, and excluding a bunch of Shaman additions and changes.
So since it didn't scale, it would still be 16.5k today, it would be under 5% of your health. You can't just say that Stoneclaw's glyph was "better", and acknowledge that it didn't scale, and pretend that it would still be better at 90. It flat out would not.Glyph of stoneclaw totem vs stone bulwark it's a no brainer for pvp: SBT is now shielding me for roughly 20% of my health each minute, and it requires to stay up to do that. Stoneclaw was shielding me for roughly 10-15%, every 20s or 30%+ of my health. Drawback was that it didnt scale.
You're still looking at the absolute changes to Elemental, in a relative comparison with other classes.SBT has more value with totemic restoration though. And I completely agree that Nature Guardian is an awesome talent. But it doesnt outweigh the loss of 22% passives + 20& glyph of EM + stoneclaw glyph. Not even by a far stretch.
Everyone lost passive damage reduction and DPS increases. Part of the goal with the MoP redesign was to roll a bunch of those passives into the baseline stats. Why aren't you mentioning the passive PvP Resilience we now get? That's absolutely relevant to the point you're making about the absolute change in Elemental's defense.
If you want to go back to relative comparisons to OTHER classes, we're back to you ignoring the passives THEY lost.
Elemental is probably struggling a bit more than it should be, but when you start twisting the facts like this to exacerbate the issue, it damages the discussion. All anyone has to do is disprove the validity of your claims, by one of the arguments I've listed here, and thereby not have to even get into whether Elemental is balanced or not in fact. You need to make an argument that DOES account for these things and which CANNOT be simply dismissed like this. I'm by no means saying you can't. I'm just saying this isn't it. I agree that Elemental seems a bit weak right now. That doesn't mean I think we've lost relative defenses since Cata, because we haven't. There's other issues with efficacy involved, in particular that so much of our DPS is RNG; it becomes difficult to execute burst when we're seemingly tuned around the maximum capacity, but ensuring those procs is impossible so we're typically performing lower than that potential.
I think we can all agree that an elemental shaman cannot and will not beat an arms or prot warrior. if they have half of a brain no matter how skilled you are right now.
shamans is sruggling bit more , i am resto shaman myself because ele is crap in arenas if we see ele /enh shamans they are first target to be focused @ and i as resto shaman ushaly being focused and my es being disspeled we arent as good like in cata
speaking as a dk, both dps specs of shamans are free kills. if it makes you feel any better, so are rogues and nothing makes me happier than taking a rogue and bending him over and imposing my will on him. seriously.
endus. please stop theorycrafting pvp. you have good intentions, but i cant imagine anyone walking away from one of your pvp posts with anything but hopeless optimism. you remind me of ghostcrawler.
Really?you have good intentions, but i cant imagine anyone walking away from one of your pvp posts with anything but hopeless optimism. you remind me of ghostcrawler.
Maybe try reading my posts?I agree that Elemental seems a bit weak right now.
Just because I don't agree with "Elemental is the suckiest suck that ever sucked", that doesn't mean I'm saying "Elemental is awesomeface perfect". There's plenty of room between those two extremes. If anything, I'm closer to the first, definitely nowhere closely to "hopeless optimism".
The problem with Ele is, most of you want it to be overpowered. The way the spec works makes it extremely easy to become overpowered if Lavaburst was buffed too much.
Ele needs buffs in places besides Lavaburst.
Originally Posted by Bilbobagshot
Thanks for all the replys, I'm not farming for a 2nd pvp ele set after all this. May look at enh. All this aside atleast were good healers in pvp, sad tho if you want dmg, reroll.
Ele shaman are a joy to play, and excellent in PVE. See challenge modes - there is a reason they're prominently featured.
HOWEVER in PVP, they aren't exactly the worst, but I would say you need to play at (arbitrary number warning) 2400 standard just to keep pace with most other classes playing at 2000 standard. Change those numbers up a little if you must, but of ALL the casters, I would never want to play a Shaman, except for its flavor and style, if I wish to achieve success (without wanting to tear my hair out).
We are now the "boomkin" of MOP.
Compare the caster shaman to its peers. Which, if you wanted to just feel powerful and own, would you play? Spriest? Mage? Warlock? All would probably be better answers. Boomkin has gotten stronger, though I have not played it extensively to know if it's better than the ele shaman.
And just a note: Boomkin and Spriest retained their 15% damage reduction in their forms. The boomkin still needs it, but the spriest definitely does not.
In PvP Elemental Shaman is the weakest caster Class/Spec that is also a free kill for Melee
Pigeon holed to spec Resto for PvP like always
Elemental shamans are pretty weak atm, I did some arena and yea the burst can be nice if you get peels from your arena partner but when they focus you we can't really do that much. We can't counter warriors anymore because every warrior glyphed into the silence + with avatar is gg. Speccing into SBT can be nice but it can be purged what was not possible if I can remember from our previous shield. Rogue's are still hard to counter with all the stuns altho the dmg is not that high anymore and please lets not talk about dk's.
Capacitor totem is THE worst stun ever. Do I really have to spec into projection and glyph it to make it even a viable stun. Last arena a healer just threw it on me and I just AUTO attacked it and it was gone. It is so easy to counter it with the 5hp if they don't want to make the totem better just remove it. I just feel sad that Blizzard never even listened to all the feedback we gave on the forums and implemented ascendance so they had to NERF lavaburst.
I think improved it a big word, they more like expanded it with half baked talents and a stun.I'm not saying these are all super mega awesomemazing OP, but they're ways the Elemental toolkit was improved over Cata. Saying they didn't address Elemental's issues is simply not true. They may not have addressed them to the full degree that you wanted to see, but that's not remotely the same thing.
Watch the ladders start to form in the brackets that matter (3v3, 5v5) and tell me how many elemental shamans you see after 6 weeks above 2.2k rating. I can tell you right now it will be less than last season, partially due to affli locks being less god-class, but more due to the fact that elemental used to scrape viability because of its insane burst damage.
I'm not saying that elemental shamans don't do dmg. But it feels like Blizzard have taken away our niche of what we used to be last season (i.e the glass cannon) and replaced it with slighty more CD's for defense/utility (net gain as Endus keeps preaching). I will still play elemental, but you cannot help but wonder why they have changed our place within the arena system. Now we don't fill that role we can easily be replaced by any other viable caster which will see less people playing caster shaman... and no one here wants to see that do they?
PS: Endus. Your a great moderator and all, and your probably the most active person on these forums, but please don't comment directly on pvp matters when you have the experience of a challenger in those situations. As I see it (not important), moderators should not only be active and take a balanced view, but should also be knowledgeable about what they are posting about. If you could prove me wrong and say that you run 50-100+ arenas each week above 2k MMR then i'll eat my hat and peep up.
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