Thread: PvP Ele, no dmg

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  1. #41
    Dreadlord Elapo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    Mind letting me armory you? I wanna see how you bursted so hard you went through his heals + second wind in 3-4 globals... (no I'm not being sarcastic, really wanna know.)
    Mastery + luck = a lot of lava bursts.
    a lot of lava bursts + ascendance = more lava bursts

    Basically, if you get lucky with RNG and pop CD's, you win.
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    And 97% of the Internet knows that 99% of statistics are made up on the spot!

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Elapo View Post
    Mastery + luck = a lot of lava bursts.
    a lot of lava bursts + ascendance = more lava bursts

    Basically, if you get lucky with RNG and pop CD's and other team lets you free cast during the only CD you have and they dont have pvp gear, you win.

    fixed that for you.

  3. #43
    Warchief Kivimetsan's Avatar
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    Make LB not be affected by resilience and good game. Elemental will be solved.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kivimetsan View Post
    Make LB not be affected by resilience and good game. Elemental will be solved.
    So basically lava burst ignores armor similiar to chaos bolt? i like that idea. Problem is blizzard doesn't care about ele shamans anyways. The only reason to play a ele shaman right now(sadly) is because you enjoy it. We're a subpar caster for pve, and are subpar for pvp. You can argue that we have decent utility and bring a purpose to groups but thats about it. Its been like this for years unfortunately as well. As the post below me says though the point is we have to cast. Without a fear or a get away thats instant or on a low cd we're f'd
    Last edited by Rawfury; 2012-10-10 at 11:52 AM.

  5. #45
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivimetsan View Post
    Make LB not be affected by resilience and good game. Elemental will be solved.
    Except nobody will let you cast anything. I'm just specced resto for PvP, Ele just... not worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfury View Post
    So basically lava burst ignores armor similiar to chaos bolt? i like that idea. Problem is blizzard doesn't care about ele shamans anyways. The only reason to play a ele shaman right now(sadly) is because you enjoy it. We're a subpar caster for pve, and are subpar for pvp. You can argue that we have decent utility and bring a purpose to groups but thats about it.
    Bolded part is false.
    Last edited by SenSayNyu; 2012-10-10 at 11:51 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by SenSayNyu View Post
    Except nobody will let you cast anything. I'm just specced resto for PvP, Ele just... not worth it.


    We're a subpar caster for pve
    Bolded part is false.
    Meh this is just my personal opinion. When it comes to damage we're the worst casters unless its aoe. Judging gear is on par.

  7. #47
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfury View Post
    Meh this is just my personal opinion. When it comes to damage we're the worst casters unless its aoe. Judging gear is on par.
    Thankfully, we don't need to rely on personal opinion.

    The data on WoL is still pretty early, but Elemental is showing up strong on multiple fights.

  8. #48
    Ele has never been a really shinny example of PVP. On the other hand resto is pretty nice, Id stick with that.

  9. #49
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Thankfully, we don't need to rely on personal opinion.

    The data on WoL is still pretty early, but Elemental is showing up strong on multiple fights.
    Raidbots data, all parses, default measure (only specs that come up automatically, i.e. that have enough parses)

    10 man normal

    Stone guard: 10th out of 19
    Feng: 8th out of 18
    Gara'jal: 16th out of 18
    Council: 16th out of 19
    Elegon: 17th out of 19
    Emperor: 12th out of 18

    25 man normal

    Stone guard: 10th out of 19
    Feng: 9th out of 19
    Gara'jal: 13th out of 19
    Council: 10th out of 19
    Elegon: 16th out of 18
    Emperor: 13th out of 17

    Middle of the pack on 25m
    On 3 fights middle of the pack on 10m and near the bottom for the other 3.

    When I go WoL, 25m all ranks per boss, i see

    2 ele listed in total over 6 bosses in the top 40 (page 1)
    1 ele listed in total over 6 bosses ifrom 40 to 80 (page 2)
    3 ele listed in total over 6 bosses ifrom 80 to 120 (page 3)
    10 ele listed in total over 6 bosses ifrom 120 to 160 (page 4)
    8 ele listed in total over 6 bosses from 160 to 200 (page 5)

    so that are 24 ele shamans out of the 1200 spots over 6 bosses (ie combined 200 best parses for each boss). On a boss like feng the tanks hold nearly the entire top 200 list, a fight that is supposed to be good for ele. I didn't really check besides that, since that is what raidbots pretty much indicates. And the logs for boss 3might be skewed as well due to the spirit realm not correctly logging the normal world and the other way around.

    I'm not saying ele is weak in pve, I just don't see the 'strong'. In my limited understanding of the English language strong means not average.
    Last edited by zenga; 2012-10-10 at 03:32 PM.

  10. #50
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    I'm not saying ele is weak in pve, I just don't see the 'strong'. In my limited understanding of the English language strong means not average.
    On the average, we're generally in the top half of the specs performing well in PvE. So yes, "strong".

    Raidbots also isn't updated fully and isn't incorporating monk data, so it's not fully reliable yet. Either way, the claim that Elemental is "the worst caster" is absolutely not supported by any of the evidence available; even using the raidbots data, we're parsing higher than several casters on average, particularly on a few fights where the preliminary data you're citing lists us as one of the top 2-3 caster specs.

  11. #51
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    On the average, we're generally in the top half of the specs performing well in PvE. So yes, "strong".
    I really don't see that on available data, not for 10m and not for 25m. In the middle and the lower half for 10m, in the middle for 25m. Generally they are actually in the lower half for both 25m and 10m.

    Besides I think that the poster you quoted was talking about pvp, as this is a pvp topic.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 07:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kivimetsan View Post
    Make LB not be affected by resilience and good game. Elemental will be solved.
    I like that a lot, but it could be too much with ascendance. I prefer it for lightning bolt though, a long spell cast that is considered a filler and rather easy to interrupt. Speccing into unleashed fury would become really attractive.

  12. #52
    Oh man, Elemental is close to be fine, just finished playing arenas with a random dude the whole evening and it's been quite competitive, the thing is that we are quite dependant on ascendancy, if you learn when to cast ascendancy and tell your mates how to help you to force an optimal ascendancy and you will burn your opponent's soul .

    Claim whatever you want, but we still have the better burst in game, on par with bugged beastmaster hunters.

    And yes, we will still have our spot in Rated Battlegrounds

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire Annelot's Avatar
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    Well this sucks... I just got my shaman to 90 just for ele pvp Is encha good?
    WNL <3

  14. #54
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    I'd pretty much like to see them do anything whatsoever to increase Lightning Bolts damage, then once they get that sorted out...give us Riptide and Earth Shield. I wouldn't expect them to be as effective as a Resto because they have various passives that improve the healing but I think we would benefit nicely with those two abilities. Our defenses have improved (subjective) but they are not on par with other casters.

    I know how the mods feel about comparing classes but there seems to be this...I don't know...'theory' that because we wear mail armor and a shield we're on the same level as cloth and leather wearers, but this simply is not the case. If, for example, we took a shadow priest and put them in mail gear but took away their pw:shield, renew, and healing from VT(?) all of a sudden you have a lot of very squishy spriests...even though they're wearing the supposedly super awesome mail gear with a shield. They'd still do a lot of damage but they wouldn't last long enough for anyone to suffer overmuch unless they had a healer and some peels.

    If that previous sentence sounds familiar its because I just described an elemental shaman. Not as much damage as a spriest but by many accounts they are currently overpowered anyways.

    Most casters either have some kind spammable absorb/ HoT, or spell that provides self-healing, or in one or two cases all 3. But we, unfortunately, don't have any of that. HST is kiiiind of a HoT but even if it were immune to damage, there's no guarantee that its going to heal us.

    I realize people want our spells, namely Lava Burst, to hit as hard as Chaos Bolt or whatever other spells hit hard but the down side to those abilities is that they're very easy to interrupt. Imagine for a second that we actually had a spell similar to Chaos Bolt, do you actually think you'd be able to cast it in competitive pvp? Sure you'd be able to run all over bg's and maaybe rated bgs, but mid to high lvl arena? Yes, 'locks have an cd that makes them immune to silences and interrupts but we don't and do you really want to use a 3 min dr cd offensivley? That to me is like using the old EM, with the old glyph, defensively which IMHO was not a good idea and so I rarely used it.

    At any rate, its a pipe dream but this is what I would like to see:increased lightning bolt damage and elemental versions of riptide and earth shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annelot View Post
    Well this sucks... I just got my shaman to 90 just for ele pvp Is encha good?
    Basically, in a nutshell, elemental is a class that slowly chips away at the opponents health but doesn't have enough survivability to see it through. Don't know anything about enhance so can't help you there.
    Last edited by shell; 2012-10-11 at 01:43 AM.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  15. #55
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    I know how the mods feel about comparing classes but there seems to be this...I don't know...'theory' that because we wear mail armor and a shield we're on the same level as cloth and leather wearers, but this simply is not the case.
    Armor/shield isn't ignorable, either, though. Checking my gear against a mage buddy on the armory, if I throw on my 463 shield (using a staff for SLIGHTLY better itemization, but wouldn't in PvP, for this reason), I've got 37,600 armor. My mage buddy, 13,206 armor. His gear is slightly better than mine overall, giving him a better ilvl, so it's not me outgearing him.

    That means his physical damage is reduced 22.21%, mine is reduced 44.84%, before you even consider block chance. That's a passive 22.5% damage reduction versus physical damage. You can't just say that's irrelevant and shouldn't be included. It's not a passive reduction to ALL damage, but it's definitely going to make a difference against a Warrior or Rogue.

    That doesn't mean clothies should get tons more defenses than we have to make up for that, either. I'm just saying this isn't a factor you can discard as irrelevant, not that it makes up the perceived difference.

    If, for example, we took a shadow priest and put them in mail gear but took away their pw:shield, renew, and healing from VT(?) all of a sudden you have a lot of very squishy spriests...even though they're wearing the supposedly super awesome mail gear with a shield. They'd still do a lot of damage but they wouldn't last long enough for anyone to suffer overmuch unless they had a healer and some peels.

    If that previous sentence sounds familiar its because I just described an elemental shaman. Not as much damage as a spriest but by many accounts they are currently overpowered anyways.

    Most casters either have some kind spammable absorb/ HoT, or spell that provides self-healing, or in one or two cases all 3. But we, unfortunately, don't have any of that. HST is kiiiind of a HoT but even if it were immune to damage, there's no guarantee that its going to heal us.
    I don't like the "most casters/classes/whatever" arguments, because they're arguments for killing every single form of class variation under the name of "balance". We shouldn't have all the things other casters have. We should have some of our own things. That's what makes an Elemental Shaman different from those other classes. Otherwise, you're basically reducing the PvP game to roles, not specs, where every Caster has basically the exact same toolkit and no variation, because otherwise it would be argued that it's too advantageous to that one class because "most casters don't have that".

    We absolutely need the tools to be competitive. They DON'T have the be the same tools everyone else has. In fact, they shouldn't be. I'm not saying Elemental's setup is fine in this regard, I'm just disputing this particular type of argument.

  16. #56
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Armor/shield isn't ignorable, either, though. Checking my gear against a mage buddy on the armory, if I throw on my 463 shield (using a staff for SLIGHTLY better itemization, but wouldn't in PvP, for this reason), I've got 37,600 armor. My mage buddy, 13,206 armor. His gear is slightly better than mine overall, giving him a better ilvl, so it's not me outgearing him.

    That means his physical damage is reduced 22.21%, mine is reduced 44.84%, before you even consider block chance. That's a passive 22.5% damage reduction versus physical damage. You can't just say that's irrelevant and shouldn't be included. It's not a passive reduction to ALL damage, but it's definitely going to make a difference against a Warrior or Rogue.

    That doesn't mean clothies should get tons more defenses than we have to make up for that, either. I'm just saying this isn't a factor you can discard as irrelevant, not that it makes up the perceived difference.



    I don't like the "most casters/classes/whatever" arguments, because they're arguments for killing every single form of class variation under the name of "balance". We shouldn't have all the things other casters have. We should have some of our own things. That's what makes an Elemental Shaman different from those other classes. Otherwise, you're basically reducing the PvP game to roles, not specs, where every Caster has basically the exact same toolkit and no variation, because otherwise it would be argued that it's too advantageous to that one class because "most casters don't have that".

    We absolutely need the tools to be competitive. They DON'T have the be the same tools everyone else has. In fact, they shouldn't be. I'm not saying Elemental's setup is fine in this regard, I'm just disputing this particular type of argument.
    Oh you and your semantics, haha. Just to be clear, I don't think our mail armor is "irrelevant" I just don't think our survivability is on par with other casters given how much damage we do in a pvp setting. And i'm not arguing for homogenization for the sake of balance. BUT what I do want to see is one of two things: we retain our current damage but with more survivabilty in the form of some sort of self healing, HoT, or absorption shield OR we return to our place as glass cannons. The things that make us competitive dps in pve don't translate to pvp.

    The developers don't have to employ my suggestions, its just a wishlist with already existing spells. The likelihood of them increasing our dps for pvp is as close to nil as is possible. But we need something, or rather, it is my opinion that we need something. I could very easily just play another class that gives me the sense of satisfaction that I'm looking for, but I like my ele and so I'm sticking to it. I just want them to perform better. If that means the devs come up with new stuff that doesn't exist currently to give us what I think we need, then so be it. But I think they typically introduce new stuff during betas. And we're not going to have another beta for maybe a year and half. I'd personally rather not wait that long. So yes, we should have some of our own things but we don't, and not likely to during the course of this expansion.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by XenofeX View Post
    Oh man, Elemental is close to be fine, just finished playing arenas with a random dude the whole evening and it's been quite competitive, the thing is that we are quite dependant on ascendancy, if you learn when to cast ascendancy and tell your mates how to help you to force an optimal ascendancy and you will burn your opponent's soul .

    Claim whatever you want, but we still have the better burst in game, on par with bugged beastmaster hunters.

    And yes, we will still have our spot in Rated Battlegrounds
    I can not take you serious, you probably have not played above 2200 in 3on3 ever, beastmaster hunters do 800k damage in seconds atm, no way in hell we can do that.(screenshots/topic on AJ) and as soon as I pop ascendance I eat every cc they have. if I play top notch I am still only doing 40k crits with lavaburst for around 5/6 seconds.

    They need to give us a filler that does not hit like a wet noodle or make our pvp burst higher.

  18. #58
    Dakkroth is playing ele sham this exp it seems. Here's his stream, plenty of footage to look at. http://www.own3d.tv/Dakkroth

  19. #59
    they simply don't give a fck about players who actually loves to play one single class, I play only Shaman PvP since wotlk, and yes i don't like resto spec. I only play resto in dungeons and LFR witch I don't like but they forced me to do in order to get decent weapons. In every expansion and patch we get happy for our changes until we release what everyone else got. And if you try to explain our huge gap compared to other classes, here comes the l2p and qq replies. I don't want enhancement or elemental shamans to be op, i hate op classes, but i want them good enough to encounter other classes in arenas and bgs.

  20. #60
    Field Marshal Adimaru's Avatar
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    I don't really see what the problem is for some people, despite the low damage the utility of Elemental has increased by alot and this is coming from someone who plays ele for quite some time now

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