Thread: PvP Ele, no dmg

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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    Well yeah if you're going for rating/title, then you go Resto. Nothing has changed in this regard in years.
    Got 2200 in arena and rbg as ele but the effort it took vs resto.. not worth it to dps. And I dont agree with nothing has changed. It's even worse then in years. Season10 was pretty balanced , except the mmr abuse but class balance was

  2. #142
    I tried 15 arena games last night with a friend playing holy pally and it went pretty good and i wasent expecting that after
    all the threads i have read about ele pvp being bad as hell.
    I totaly destroyed ppl in there.. Even managed to 3 hit a warrior with pretty much full pvp gear so right now im pretty
    happy with the state of ele. Sure we could use a few tweaks for survivebillity tho.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalinn View Post
    I tried 15 arena games last night with a friend playing holy pally and it went pretty good and i wasent expecting that after
    all the threads i have read about ele pvp being bad as hell.
    I totaly destroyed ppl in there.. Even managed to 3 hit a warrior with pretty much full pvp gear so right now im pretty
    happy with the state of ele. Sure we could use a few tweaks for survivebillity tho.
    The warrior didn't spell reflect?
    The warrior didn't mass spell reflect?
    The warrior didn't go defensive stance?
    The warrior didn't use shield wall?
    The warrior didn't pummel you?
    The warrior didn't heroic throw you?
    The warrior didn't charge you?
    The warrior didn't keep you locked down with stuns?
    The warrior didn't use DbtS?
    The warrior didn't use Rallying cry?
    The warrior didn't heroic leap out of LoS?

    ... That's a mighty bad warrior for you there.

    And a 3 hit is near impossible unless the target has no resilience (or some other buff in bg's like berserking or holding the orb/them holding the orb). I'm not saying our damage is weak (especially during CD's), but a 3 shot against a full PvP resilience opponent is the luckiest rng in the world (basically requiring EotE and overload procs on everything).

  4. #144
    Warchief Northy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalinn View Post
    I tried 15 arena games last night with a friend playing holy pally and it went pretty good and i wasent expecting that after
    all the threads i have read about ele pvp being bad as hell.
    I totaly destroyed ppl in there.. Even managed to 3 hit a warrior with pretty much full pvp gear so right now im pretty
    happy with the state of ele. Sure we could use a few tweaks for survivebillity tho.
    Bull**** Ele can't 3 hits anything. Also, the warrior was bad, he has the tools to lock you down.

  5. #145
    Reson i got the warrior down so quick was that i TS him of the edge on dalaran arena when he was out of cds then popped everything on him.
    And yes i got really lucky on my overloads im sitting on arouind 36% mastery so it was all luck even got a crit on ES+Fulm.

    Atm im sitting on 22.43%ish pvp power and it really helps when bursting someone down. In most games it was my hpaly that got jumped first so i had a good
    burst window in all winning fights or a good placed TS to get a 1v1.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Got 2200 in arena and rbg as ele but the effort it took vs resto.. not worth it to dps. And I dont agree with nothing has changed. It's even worse then in years. Season10 was pretty balanced , except the mmr abuse but class balance was
    The "nothing has changed" was referring to how it's been significantly easier to get higher rating as resto as opposed to elemental in the past few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northy View Post
    Bull**** Ele can't 3 hits anything. Also, the warrior was bad, he has the tools to lock you down.
    It can technically happen, but it's the luckiest rng in the world (and assumes the opponent isn't using defensive cd's).

    Lvb: 50K
    overload: 37.5k
    EotE: 50K
    overload 37.5K
    =175K

    175K x3 = 525K.

    If you ever get this, then you should play the lottery because you're the luckiest person in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalinn View Post
    Reson i got the warrior down so quick was that i TS him of the edge on dalaran arena when he was out of cds then popped everything on him.
    And yes i got really lucky on my overloads im sitting on arouind 36% mastery so it was all luck even got a crit on ES+Fulm.

    Atm im sitting on 22.43%ish pvp power and it really helps when bursting someone down. In most games it was my hpaly that got jumped first so i had a good
    burst window in all winning fights or a good placed TS to get a 1v1.
    That only works at low rating, no offense. Good warriors will save a charge for thunderstorm and charge while still in the air. Even if a warrior is thunderstormed in a bad position (which won't happen against a good opponent) the warrior should go defensive stance anytime hes in a bad position. He then takes 25% damage reduction in defensive stance. Toss in spell reflects and shield wall, good luck with any kind of burst on him. Not to mention he could have hugged the wall in dalaran and been LoS of you for most of the time getting back up top...

  7. #147
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northy View Post
    Bull**** Ele can't 3 hits anything. Also, the warrior was bad, he has the tools to lock you down.
    Serious question; when someone outplays US, and we don't use our tools effectively, why is it that the argument is "our tools suck, they need to be better".

    But when we outplay someone, the argument is "oh, they were bad, they didn't use their tools effectively"?

    Nobody's arguing that Elemental is better than Warrior, in general. But can an Elemental kill a Warrior? Sure.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Serious question; when someone outplays US, and we don't use our tools effectively, why is it that the argument is "our tools suck, they need to be better".

    But when we outplay someone, the argument is "oh, they were bad, they didn't use their tools effectively"?

    Nobody's arguing that Elemental is better than Warrior, in general. But can an Elemental kill a Warrior? Sure.
    Indeed. In this example all it took was the warrior playing poorly, great RNG for the shaman, and a z-axis environment.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Nobody's arguing that Elemental is better than Warrior, in general. But can an Elemental kill a Warrior? Sure.
    Can't even get through 2nd wind without CDs, will u teach me master? =(

  10. #150
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Unless you get some super nice rng you're not going to get through their 2nd wind. So yeah, you do have to use your cd's to finish them off. I don't think its's a problem to have to use cooldowns that way.

    I think its pretty clear from the example given that the warrior had tunnel vision on the holy paladin.

    Also, even looking past that example, what Endus said is pretty much true. Anytime someone brings up a skilled player (again, looking past the example given) that is playing what people don't consider a viable spec, the response is always something to the effect of 'well, they were playing with spec x, y, or z so they're getting carried'

    It's happened in this thread, it's going on in the thread about enhancement, it pretty much happens in all class forums. We get frustrated when we can't do something that others can do. And no, that does not mean the class is fine, it's not.

    When you play ele/enh it seems like not only does your skill level need to be really high but your partners as well. It seems to me that this makes it a very unforgiving spec to play. People aren't interested in playing specs like that which is why people rush out to play whichever the FotM currently is. Whatever the easier path is to 2200 and beyond is generally what people are going to make a beeline towards.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Serious question; when someone outplays US, and we don't use our tools effectively, why is it that the argument is "our tools suck, they need to be better".
    That's a fair argument. I'll try and clarify some things.

    In PvP there is some huge variance. There can be huge imbalances in random bg's. Such things that can lead to this is: buffs such as berserking or hording the orb, debuffs such as holding the flag for extended time or holding the orb, gear levels, potions, flasks/foods, cooldowns not being up, gimmicky items, team work or premade bg's, and missing other factors like it wasn't you that 3 shot someone but a combination of you + another person/ability or it wasn't a warrior 1 shotting you but a combination of dragons roar + heroic strike + other class.

    I say this not because there is anything wrong with the nature of random battlegrounds, but because people often use these examples as why classes are OP/UP. Almost anything that happens in a random battleground should not be used as any sort of comparison. There are to many variable (even excluding skill and gear) that can make a huge difference.

    The skill difference is huge between random battlegrounds, low rated arena play (sub 1500), average arena play (1500-2200), and competitive arena play (2200+). Myself, like many I assume, are currently in a unique position. My shaman is around 2100 MMR so I generally play against pretty good opponents on him. I'm also gearing up 2 alts so I do a lot of random bg's to gear them up. You run into all sorts of people in random bg's (some good and some extremely bad). My warrior just dinged 90 and I'm playing teams between 1600-1900 MMR teams on him. The skill level of the teams I play on my warrior are vastly different than my shaman. I'm certainly not the best PvP player or even remotely close, but it's easy to see the difference in opponents.

    The best way to look at balance is to look at arenas. A lot of the issues aren't there such as buffs/debuffs, gimmicky items, or consumables. The gear in theory should be similar (not always the case especially in the beginning of an expansion, but there shouldn't be a huge gap, at least at high rating). Cooldowns are limited as well, things like LoH/Army/brez aren't usable in arenas. All cooldowns are also reset upon entering arena as well, so everyone has their cooldowns available upon start. MMR attempts to balance out the skill part but it's not the best system, however it's not likely someone at 1500 will fight opponents that coordinate cc combos, focus or arena 1,2,3 interrupt/cc/purge, stomp totems, etc.. but at 2K+ players do these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    But when we outplay someone, the argument is "oh, they were bad, they didn't use their tools effectively"?
    The problem arises when players don't use their tools effectively (both sides you and your opponent). Yes, if a warrior has spell reflect up and you try and hex them then you are playing poorly. Conversely if the warrior pops spell reflect preemptively (instead of right as a cast is about to go off), then they are playing poorly. It can happen on both sides, but you can't justify someone playing poorly as why you are doing well (which is the point I'm trying to make). You also can't justify what players do/don't do at low rating as success, since things are different against better opponents. It is an ambiguous situation I agree. A lot of it is in the meta game, and ultimately success depends on the outcome most times. But if a warrior doesn't even use spell reflect, or not even attempting to use it correctly (timing it right) then that's a bad opponent plain and simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Nobody's arguing that Elemental is better than Warrior, in general. But can an Elemental kill a Warrior? Sure.
    Yes, an elemental shaman can beat a warrior. I beat lots of warriors in random bg's while gearing up. As stated above, there are so many variables to consider here to even come close to comparing anything in random bg's or world PvP.

    No, an elemental shaman can not beat an equally geared/skilled warrior in a controlled setting such as arenas. Assuming the warrior takes: gag order, death from above, double time, avatar, second wind, shockwave, and mass spell reflect, there is no way to win against them. You can swap talents and glyphs after seeing your opponents in arena btw, so there is no excuse for a warrior not to have these tools.

    I'm not arguing for 1v1 balance, since it can't be done. Yes warriors need nerfs and they are getting them. The warrior argument was brought up by Shalinn, and it's possibly the worst class to compare elemental against since they are a hard counter to us. There's nothing wrong with some classes being a counter, but I certainly wouldn't brag about beating a warrior when there is no chance outside them messing up horribly for an elemental to win.

    As stated above, I'm just an average PvP'er (usually hover around 2000-2100). Even being average you can still tell when opponents mess up as opposed to you playing perfectly. You can also easily tell between a bad opponent and a good one. Bad opponents beat themselves the majority of the time, assuming you capitalize on their mistakes. I swap between resto and elemental in arenas (mainly for 2's). I'd love to be elemental for everything, but I just don't think its viable verses most comps.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-25 at 03:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    Unless you get some super nice rng you're not going to get through their 2nd wind. So yeah, you do have to use your cd's to finish them off. I don't think its's a problem to have to use cooldowns that way.
    The problem with warriors is the complete package. It's not 1 single thing that makes them OP, it's the combination of: sustained damage, burst damage with CD stacking, mobility, lock down capability, cc, utility, and defensive abilities. Yes I'm playing a warrior alt and it's OP as hell. Anyone saying differently is blinded by bias. My warrior is in blues/greens with 3 PvP pieces and wrecking 1600-1900 teams with full pvp gear. And I suck at playing melee classes. We've hit a wall where we need gear to progress higher though (my BM partner is also in PvE blues with a 450 weapon). Game isn't balanced around 2's I know, but damn its still insanely OP.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    Yeah great take away an ability and put it in a talent net gain right? Or mediocre defensive cd that can't be used when silenced or stunned, net gain right?

    If you think Elementals defenses have improved over Cata in a PvP sense then I don't know what to say except get out of the 1200 bracket and fight competent opponents. You have to look at what other classes got in MoP as well, you can't just look at a narrow analysis of past and present.



    The healing surge buff was nice I'll give you that. Ancestral Guidance for PvP lolololol! Wow you should actually PvP before commenting, just saying. Any DPS will sit on you making the talent worthless for PvP. At least with HTT you get a few ticks before they kill it.




    Yeah, and teams just leave a freecasting elemental shaman alone when they pop ascendance . Stop justifying bad play from your opponents as a success. If Ascendance had a immunity to silences/interrupts then you might have a point, but they can't add that because it will make resto OP.



    Yeah competent players just let capacitor go off. The only class the reduced TS helps against is DK's, other melee its just a mild nuisance. And by additional mobility you mean the 15% run speed nerf right? There's no point to giving a class a snare/root and then making every melee practically immune to them. Add in dispels and good luck keeping any melee off you.






    So if elemental did 1% more damage in PvE from level 85 to 90 and other classes did say 100%, then you would say that is an improvement?




    That was a bad attempt at a joke. Sarcasm doesn't come across well in forums.
    I lost it at Ancestral Guidance. It's abundantly clear that Endus doesn't PvP.

  13. #153
    The Patient Thalais's Avatar
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    The question I have to ask, Can elemental shamans be used in RBG?
    Obviously they cant do Arena if they have to hard cast since everyone has 2-3 interrupts/silences or another CC.

    The issue I have with RBG, druids are just better at it.
    Every Druid can take typhoon and clear every Flag zone. Oh and they all can stealth to you so you cant stop them before they get to you.
    When life gets you down, stand back up.
    When something breaks, fix it.
    When Blizzard makes you wait 1 more year and gives you a crappy D3 game with no end game content, horrible nerfs, & says the AH is the greatest thing to come to a D3 game, It's OK to nerd rage and never buy another Acti-Blizzard game again. I know I wont.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalais View Post
    The question I have to ask, Can elemental shamans be used in RBG?
    Obviously they cant do Arena if they have to hard cast since everyone has 2-3 interrupts/silences or another CC.

    The issue I have with RBG, druids are just better at it.
    Every Druid can take typhoon and clear every Flag zone. Oh and they all can stealth to you so you cant stop them before they get to you.
    I hard cast rarely on my ele. lava bursts and ele blast only, and i wont ele blast unless im almost guaranteed to get it off. lightning bolt only if there are no CS's or i have an enemy kited. most of the time i will cast a quick chain lightning as a filler until i have an instant or my big damage spells to use. So yes you can play ele in arena without casting. you can line up all instant bursts every minute on your NS too since ascendance is a garbage CD for ele unless your opponents have downs.

    Ele is ok in RBGs. No you're not a first or even second choice, but make some friends and prove your worth. You will have to lie and beg yourself into groups, so some arena achieves are going to help your case. Easier to convince 2 chumps you're good at this stupid game than 9. Work hard at it and dont expect your rating to get handed to you, even if it takes a few seasons.
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  15. #155
    I miss elemental pvp from wrath, although if played right during cata, ele owned in pvp. I've have always enjoyed ele pvp. It takes alot of timing and skill, but when you pull it off, you feel epic.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Nayko View Post
    I miss elemental pvp from wrath, although if played right during cata, ele owned in pvp. I've have always enjoyed ele pvp. It takes alot of timing and skill, but when you pull it off, you feel epic.
    When you pull it off, the other player has his head in his arse and is playing with 1 hand.

  17. #157
    Bloodsail Admiral zenga's Avatar
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    The problem starts with our incredible weak defence. With better/more defensive tools shamans will actually be able to do damage, instead of wasting a bunch of globals on kiting, rooting and healing.

  18. #158
    Herald of the Titans Eliot123's Avatar
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    Ugh. I don't know about others but even in full PvP gear I find battlegrounds to be depressing, to say the least. Should have rerolled when I had the chance. >_<
    The moment when, thanks to transmogrification, your character selection screen looks like the cast of the Downton Abbey.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalinn View Post
    I tried 15 arena games last night with a friend playing holy pally and it went pretty good and i wasent expecting that after
    all the threads i have read about ele pvp being bad as hell.
    I totaly destroyed ppl in there.. Even managed to 3 hit a warrior with pretty much full pvp gear so right now im pretty
    happy with the state of ele. Sure we could use a few tweaks for survivebillity tho.
    This is the typical issue on this forum. People think the class is good because they pwn at 1500 rating.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Enaina View Post
    This is the typical issue on this forum. People think the class is good because they pwn at 1500 rating.
    Indeed. we need some anti-cc cd for ascendance, like warlocks are getting now..... but still that only leaves us at a 3min burst class with low defense

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