I tried 15 arena games last night with a friend playing holy pally and it went pretty good and i wasent expecting that after
all the threads i have read about ele pvp being bad as hell.
I totaly destroyed ppl in there.. Even managed to 3 hit a warrior with pretty much full pvp gear so right now im pretty
happy with the state of ele. Sure we could use a few tweaks for survivebillity tho.
The warrior didn't mass spell reflect?
The warrior didn't go defensive stance?
The warrior didn't use shield wall?
The warrior didn't pummel you?
The warrior didn't heroic throw you?
The warrior didn't charge you?
The warrior didn't keep you locked down with stuns?
The warrior didn't use DbtS?
The warrior didn't use Rallying cry?
The warrior didn't heroic leap out of LoS?
... That's a mighty bad warrior for you there.
And a 3 hit is near impossible unless the target has no resilience (or some other buff in bg's like berserking or holding the orb/them holding the orb). I'm not saying our damage is weak (especially during CD's), but a 3 shot against a full PvP resilience opponent is the luckiest rng in the world (basically requiring EotE and overload procs on everything).
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Reson i got the warrior down so quick was that i TS him of the edge on dalaran arena when he was out of cds then popped everything on him.
And yes i got really lucky on my overloads im sitting on arouind 36% mastery so it was all luck even got a crit on ES+Fulm.
Atm im sitting on 22.43%ish pvp power and it really helps when bursting someone down. In most games it was my hpaly that got jumped first so i had a good
burst window in all winning fights or a good placed TS to get a 1v1.
175K x3 = 525K.
If you ever get this, then you should play the lottery because you're the luckiest person in the world.
But when we outplay someone, the argument is "oh, they were bad, they didn't use their tools effectively"?
Nobody's arguing that Elemental is better than Warrior, in general. But can an Elemental kill a Warrior? Sure.
Unless you get some super nice rng you're not going to get through their 2nd wind. So yeah, you do have to use your cd's to finish them off. I don't think its's a problem to have to use cooldowns that way.
I think its pretty clear from the example given that the warrior had tunnel vision on the holy paladin.
Also, even looking past that example, what Endus said is pretty much true. Anytime someone brings up a skilled player (again, looking past the example given) that is playing what people don't consider a viable spec, the response is always something to the effect of 'well, they were playing with spec x, y, or z so they're getting carried'
It's happened in this thread, it's going on in the thread about enhancement, it pretty much happens in all class forums. We get frustrated when we can't do something that others can do. And no, that does not mean the class is fine, it's not.
When you play ele/enh it seems like not only does your skill level need to be really high but your partners as well. It seems to me that this makes it a very unforgiving spec to play. People aren't interested in playing specs like that which is why people rush out to play whichever the FotM currently is. Whatever the easier path is to 2200 and beyond is generally what people are going to make a beeline towards.
These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...
In PvP there is some huge variance. There can be huge imbalances in random bg's. Such things that can lead to this is: buffs such as berserking or hording the orb, debuffs such as holding the flag for extended time or holding the orb, gear levels, potions, flasks/foods, cooldowns not being up, gimmicky items, team work or premade bg's, and missing other factors like it wasn't you that 3 shot someone but a combination of you + another person/ability or it wasn't a warrior 1 shotting you but a combination of dragons roar + heroic strike + other class.
I say this not because there is anything wrong with the nature of random battlegrounds, but because people often use these examples as why classes are OP/UP. Almost anything that happens in a random battleground should not be used as any sort of comparison. There are to many variable (even excluding skill and gear) that can make a huge difference.
The skill difference is huge between random battlegrounds, low rated arena play (sub 1500), average arena play (1500-2200), and competitive arena play (2200+). Myself, like many I assume, are currently in a unique position. My shaman is around 2100 MMR so I generally play against pretty good opponents on him. I'm also gearing up 2 alts so I do a lot of random bg's to gear them up. You run into all sorts of people in random bg's (some good and some extremely bad). My warrior just dinged 90 and I'm playing teams between 1600-1900 MMR teams on him. The skill level of the teams I play on my warrior are vastly different than my shaman. I'm certainly not the best PvP player or even remotely close, but it's easy to see the difference in opponents.
The best way to look at balance is to look at arenas. A lot of the issues aren't there such as buffs/debuffs, gimmicky items, or consumables. The gear in theory should be similar (not always the case especially in the beginning of an expansion, but there shouldn't be a huge gap, at least at high rating). Cooldowns are limited as well, things like LoH/Army/brez aren't usable in arenas. All cooldowns are also reset upon entering arena as well, so everyone has their cooldowns available upon start. MMR attempts to balance out the skill part but it's not the best system, however it's not likely someone at 1500 will fight opponents that coordinate cc combos, focus or arena 1,2,3 interrupt/cc/purge, stomp totems, etc.. but at 2K+ players do these things.
No, an elemental shaman can not beat an equally geared/skilled warrior in a controlled setting such as arenas. Assuming the warrior takes: gag order, death from above, double time, avatar, second wind, shockwave, and mass spell reflect, there is no way to win against them. You can swap talents and glyphs after seeing your opponents in arena btw, so there is no excuse for a warrior not to have these tools.
I'm not arguing for 1v1 balance, since it can't be done. Yes warriors need nerfs and they are getting them. The warrior argument was brought up by Shalinn, and it's possibly the worst class to compare elemental against since they are a hard counter to us. There's nothing wrong with some classes being a counter, but I certainly wouldn't brag about beating a warrior when there is no chance outside them messing up horribly for an elemental to win.
As stated above, I'm just an average PvP'er (usually hover around 2000-2100). Even being average you can still tell when opponents mess up as opposed to you playing perfectly. You can also easily tell between a bad opponent and a good one. Bad opponents beat themselves the majority of the time, assuming you capitalize on their mistakes. I swap between resto and elemental in arenas (mainly for 2's). I'd love to be elemental for everything, but I just don't think its viable verses most comps.
---------- Post added 2012-10-25 at 03:51 PM ----------
The question I have to ask, Can elemental shamans be used in RBG?
Obviously they cant do Arena if they have to hard cast since everyone has 2-3 interrupts/silences or another CC.
The issue I have with RBG, druids are just better at it.
Every Druid can take typhoon and clear every Flag zone. Oh and they all can stealth to you so you cant stop them before they get to you.
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Ele is ok in RBGs. No you're not a first or even second choice, but make some friends and prove your worth. You will have to lie and beg yourself into groups, so some arena achieves are going to help your case. Easier to convince 2 chumps you're good at this stupid game than 9. Work hard at it and dont expect your rating to get handed to you, even if it takes a few seasons.
I miss elemental pvp from wrath, although if played right during cata, ele owned in pvp. I've have always enjoyed ele pvp. It takes alot of timing and skill, but when you pull it off, you feel epic.
The problem starts with our incredible weak defence. With better/more defensive tools shamans will actually be able to do damage, instead of wasting a bunch of globals on kiting, rooting and healing.
Ugh. I don't know about others but even in full PvP gear I find battlegrounds to be depressing, to say the least. Should have rerolled when I had the chance. >_<
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