I have all the proof you need that elemental is a sub-par pvp spec:
NO ONE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM!!!
I have all the proof you need that elemental is a sub-par pvp spec:
NO ONE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM!!!
Elemental is so bad right now that I wouldn't be surprised to see posts by other classes poping on the official forums saying "come on Blizz, do something for these poor guys".
It happened before, during T11.
After reading the watercooler post today I just have one question.
Is elemental really that good at offhealing? Cause I don't see it.
We have one healing spell (healing surge) that costs a lot of mana, 1.5ish second cast that can be interupted, heals for like 30k on average which isn't that much. The only other heals we have are Healing stream totem which is barely noticeable and our tier 5 talents.
I mean compared to rets with all their heals and druids (30% heal as a talent, Heal when they shift, etc..) I just feel like we aren't as good as everyone seems to think.
I'm not saying we should be buffed, but I think our heals are at a good place right now and I'm worried they'll get nerfed making us bad at damage and heals. Thoughts?
Elemental wont see any light against melees, against casters it's actually decent if your cool downs are ready. The burst does hurt, but it's fairly easy to either break LoS or CC the shaman thus negating all his damage for the next 3-4 minutes, a time he wont survive.
I feel reminded of the classic 5 minute mages, just not as strong. I mean you can fry an caster just fine during your burst phase and even drop an healer if said healer doesn't expect your burst or can't los.
I'm not opposed to the hybrid healing nerfs, but hope they will compensate elemental with some better defensive abilities (not holding my breath on this though).
I just tested Earth Grab a bit today:
the snare/root/what ever doesn't seem to share DR with anything, not even with its own root. The totem can only root a player once tho.
If you use this macro:
#showtooltip earthgrab totem
/cast earthgrab totem
Together with the talent Totemic Restoration, you basically have an AoE root on a 15 sec CD, that can snare for a full 5 sec every 15th sec (DR reset is 18s). That is pretty fucking strong together with a mage
Last edited by Enaina; 2012-11-01 at 10:58 AM.
I do see a lot of people trying to make arguments again based on "if the other guy doesn't make any mistakes ever and is all up our shiznit, we get rocked". This is a bollocks argument for PvP. You're deliberately stacking the deck against yourself from the outset. PvP is about capitalizing on other people's mistakes. For instance; some people act like if you pop Ascendance, you get locked down immediately with CCs the other team was saving for that purpose. In practice, they might use it on other stuff, or be focusing your partner when you pop it, or a host of other things. In random BGs, I've snapped off an Ascendance and nuked down three people basically by myself in that duration, from 100%. Sure, this is them being bad, but we're back to "capitalizing on other people's mistakes", which is the way PvP works.
I don't think Elemental's a great spec for 2s, for this reason; it's just too likely they'll focus you, and there's not enough going on. In 3s, 5s, or rated BGs, though, things get more chaotic, giving you more chance to capitalize on things, and less chance that you're the guy they focus down. You can't pick 2v2 Arena and act as if that's the entirety of PvP balance; that's kind of like picking 5-man dungeons as the sole arbiter of PvE performance.
I think it's a really good point Endus makes about 2s. Though I feel it's only slightly better in 3s.
I just see a lot of PvP-based QQ about Ele and Enh, and a lot of it revolves around assuming perfect gameplay on the other guy and bad gameplay by us. And that's not a good way to compare anything. That doesn't mean Ele/Enh are perfect (Enh is okay, Ele needs some work IMO), but you need to analyze them realistically, not by stacking the deck against them. That's just bias, not a rational discussion.
Tremor / purge are examples of abilities that will not be punished if used incorrectly (unless you tremor when you are not feared). Or at least the consequences are minimal.
Capacitator totem/totemic projection, wind shear, thunderstorm, hex, are abilities that need to be used correctly or you get punished (as in the ability will do nothing and puts in on cd).
If a mage polys into your grounding, he can poly again right away. If he misses your cast with cs he still blankets you. If a warrior charges you when ts is available he either charges you again or he heroic leaps to you. Shockwave is a braindead aoe stun where there is no punish for using it incorrectly. You could only argue about the timing, but the spell will always do something and has a consequence for the ele. I guess you get the point I'm trying to make w/p having to go over each spec/spell.
Basically it doesn't matter for many classes if they play perfect or not vs ele, whereas the ele needs to play perfect to avoid it. On top of that nearly every class has some sort of immunity, which ele doesn't have. Therefore it may look like the other guy has to play perfect, but actually it's not.
I'm not saying I don't enjoy 2's, because I still play them (especially on alts), but the game hasn't been focused on 2's for a while now.
Wind Shear is no different than any other interrupt, save that the CD and lockout are slightly shorter. In fact, since it's ranged AND has a lower cooldown, it's the least "punishing if you play badly" interrupt.
Thunderstorm isn't any more "punishing" than any other knockback. It's affected by terrain, so you need to be aware of terrain. Screwing up and knocking them into a wall is YOUR fault for screwing up, not the ability's fault.
Hex has a CD, but so do a lot of other CCs. Capacitor Totem has a CD and a charge, most long AoE stuns like Capacitor have restrictions as well that you're ignoring.
The idea that our toolkit is appreciably worse than others' is just absolute bollocks.
No, every single one of your examples involves a Shaman playing badly, and the other player having everything available at all times and using them in perfect performance to counter whatever we do. Everything you just went over is exactly the kind of malarkey I meant.If a mage polys into your grounding, he can poly again right away. If he misses your cast with cs he still blankets you. If a warrior charges you when ts is available he either charges you again or he heroic leaps to you. Shockwave is a braindead aoe stun where there is no punish for using it incorrectly. You could only argue about the timing, but the spell will always do something and has a consequence for the ele. I guess you get the point I'm trying to make w/p having to go over each spec/spell.
Basically it doesn't matter for many classes if they play perfect or not vs ele, whereas the ele needs to play perfect to avoid it.
Yes, a mage can Poly after you Ground the first. If you don't Wind Shear the cast. Or hit Thunderstorm if you're near melee range. So that's three casts he's tried and failed to get off. Why isn't he dead yet if he's just trying to spam Polymorph on you?
Yes, a Warrior can Charge twice. You've also got multiple slows and roots. Once Avatar is fixed and it's no longer CC immunity, Warriors should be challenging but killable; right now it's that 20 seconds of "lol no way to stop me" that makes Warriors insane, it's not the Charges, which can and should be kited.
The pulsing fear/charm break of Tremor Totem fits that bill somewhat. As do the movement reduction advantages a glyphed Ghost Wolf brings. While we need a bit more in this regard, particularly with Ascendance, the issue isn't that we don't have anti-CC abilities, it's that the ones we do have aren't quite enough.On top of that nearly every class has some sort of immunity, which ele doesn't have.
---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 01:15 PM ----------
1> I've been saying since the beta that I think Elemental needs a bit more defensive protections, and/or better sustained damage; in PvP we're too focused around Ascendance and Ascendance is too easily mitigated by CC/interrupts. So you're "correcting" me by suggesting something I've been saying myself.The deck is stacked against you whether you like it or not. Elemental's defensive tool-set is sub-par compared to others. If a team sits on an elemental shaman, not only do they keep up pressure but they also lock down the shamans damage. They effectively take a 3v3 situation and turn it into a 3v2 just by knowing this.
2> If the other team is sitting on you and locking you down, it's not a 3v2. They're expending effort keeping you locked down. At best, it's a 2.5:2 or something. The only way you could claim it's a 3v2 is if it takes literally no effort on the part of the enemy to lock you down, not even a GCD, and that you provide zero benefit to the team in any way at all, even by being a third target. Going completely overboard with hyperbole doesn't foster constructive discussion.
I don't know what gave YOU the idea that I thought 2s were a pinnacle of balance. Did you even read the bit you quoted? Look at the last sentence, where I state that looking at 2s for PvP balance is like looking at 5-mans for PvE balance. Who checks numbers for 5-mans when asking about PvE balance? Nobody. Because they're irrelevant.2's are irrelevant. I don't know what gave you the idea that the game was balanced around 2's, but its wrong.
I think half the problem here is you just want to disagree with me, rather than actually disagreeing with what I've actually written. Because that's twice you've "corrected" me by basically repeating what I just said.
Yes, I've been pointing out that we can capitalize on the mistakes of others. No, that's not the entirety of my argument, and it would REALLY help if you started actually reading my posts completely rather than taking things out of context because you want to disagree with me publicly.
2) They don't have to expend any more effort to lock you down than just DPSing you. Take a shadow priest or lock for example, they can still put out descent damage while being focused.
Last edited by Blitond; 2012-11-01 at 06:07 PM.
Double standard. Either you're locking someone down, in which case they can't case, and shadow priests and locks are in close to the same boat as Elemental Shaman are, or you're just burning them, in which case the Shaman can free-cast.2) They don't have to expend any more effort to lock you down than just DPSing you. Take a shadow priest or lock for example, they can still put out descent damage while being focused.
I assumed by "lock you down", you mean rolling CCs and interrupts. You can lock down other casters the same way. I agree that Elemental is a bit too vulnerable to it, but a lock or priest getting locked down is pretty hosed as well. You seem to be arguing that other classes can just keep on pwning face and Elemental falls to pieces and can't do anything the moment anyone looks at them, and that's hyperbole. It isn't even close to that big a difference.
No, that's not what I said. Which brings us back to; why are you quoting me if you're not reading my posts?You brought up 2's. You brought it up as an invalid argument (that nobody was even arguing). It doesn't matter if elemental (or any other spec) is bad at 2's, its irreverent. Your arguing that people are QQing about 2's when thats not the case.
Me mentioning 2s as an aside, while discussing all the various types of ranked PvP, is not me bringing up something irrelevant. It's me touching on everything relevant. In the same way that no discussion of PvE as a whole should be focused entirely on raiding.
Stop taking my comments completely out of context and pretending I said something other than what I actually wrote. I equated 2s to 5-man dungeons. Nobody really cares about the balance in either, but they're still relevant discussion material, which is why I mentioned them in passing.
All i see is hopeless optimism from this guy Endus
Pops AscendanceIn random BGs, I've snapped off an Ascendance and nuked down three people basically by myself in that duration, from 100%. Sure, this is them being bad, but we're back to "capitalizing on other people's mistakes", which is the way PvP works.
Kills Random guys in BG
This is the way PvP Works
What the hell LOL
Bro u can spin tales all u want and write walls of meaningless text but it doesnt change the fact that Ele Shaman has the weakest defense, inferior tool kit and is the easiest to lock down in comparison to Mage / Lock / Spriest