Thread: PvP Ele, no dmg

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  1. #161
    I have all the proof you need that elemental is a sub-par pvp spec:

    NO ONE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM!!!

  2. #162
    Elemental is so bad right now that I wouldn't be surprised to see posts by other classes poping on the official forums saying "come on Blizz, do something for these poor guys".
    It happened before, during T11.

  3. #163
    After reading the watercooler post today I just have one question.
    Is elemental really that good at offhealing? Cause I don't see it.
    We have one healing spell (healing surge) that costs a lot of mana, 1.5ish second cast that can be interupted, heals for like 30k on average which isn't that much. The only other heals we have are Healing stream totem which is barely noticeable and our tier 5 talents.

    I mean compared to rets with all their heals and druids (30% heal as a talent, Heal when they shift, etc..) I just feel like we aren't as good as everyone seems to think.

    I'm not saying we should be buffed, but I think our heals are at a good place right now and I'm worried they'll get nerfed making us bad at damage and heals. Thoughts?

  4. #164
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaqkmagick View Post
    After reading the watercooler post today I just have one question.
    Is elemental really that good at offhealing? Cause I don't see it.
    We have one healing spell (healing surge) that costs a lot of mana, 1.5ish second cast that can be interupted, heals for like 30k on average which isn't that much. The only other heals we have are Healing stream totem which is barely noticeable and our tier 5 talents.
    The Tier 5 talents aren't ignorable, and you're forgetting the effect that Elemental Focus has.

    It's not unusual for us to be able to pop off 2-3 quick heals and bring someone from 25% to full health, if you're paying attention to your abilities.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The Tier 5 talents aren't ignorable, and you're forgetting the effect that Elemental Focus has.

    It's not unusual for us to be able to pop off 2-3 quick heals and bring someone from 25% to full health, if you're paying attention to your abilities.
    I didn't intend to say that tier 5 was unnoticeable. But I just feel like they are on a long cooldown for healing abilities (i'll admit this is probably just me QQing). Yes I did forget about elemental focus. That is definitely a nice boost. I'd have to disagree with the quick heals. I know the example you gave is in reference to topping someone else up, but if I'm being focused there is no way I'm getting those heals off (even 1v1). I feel like this kind of ties into the "lack of defensive cooldown" discussion. I just find it incredibly hard to keep myself up once someone goes after me.

  6. #166
    Elemental wont see any light against melees, against casters it's actually decent if your cool downs are ready. The burst does hurt, but it's fairly easy to either break LoS or CC the shaman thus negating all his damage for the next 3-4 minutes, a time he wont survive.

    I feel reminded of the classic 5 minute mages, just not as strong. I mean you can fry an caster just fine during your burst phase and even drop an healer if said healer doesn't expect your burst or can't los.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by blaqkmagick View Post
    After reading the watercooler post today I just have one question.
    Is elemental really that good at offhealing? Cause I don't see it.
    We have one healing spell (healing surge) that costs a lot of mana, 1.5ish second cast that can be interupted, heals for like 30k on average which isn't that much. The only other heals we have are Healing stream totem which is barely noticeable and our tier 5 talents.

    I mean compared to rets with all their heals and druids (30% heal as a talent, Heal when they shift, etc..) I just feel like we aren't as good as everyone seems to think.

    I'm not saying we should be buffed, but I think our heals are at a good place right now and I'm worried they'll get nerfed making us bad at damage and heals. Thoughts?
    Yes, Elemental is good at off-healing. 2 elemental focus + healing surges are a lot of healing. The problem is you have to not be getting focused for you to off-heal effectively (which is never the case). Elemental isn't as good as other hybrids healing, but its still good.

    I'm not opposed to the hybrid healing nerfs, but hope they will compensate elemental with some better defensive abilities (not holding my breath on this though).

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The Tier 5 talents aren't ignorable, and you're forgetting the effect that Elemental Focus has.

    It's not unusual for us to be able to pop off 2-3 quick heals and bring someone from 25% to full health, if you're paying attention to your abilities.
    The only T5 talent worth anything is HTT (for PvP). Unless you take totemic projection, the T5 healing tree is worthless in competitive PvP. I think you overestimate HTT in higher rated arena/rbgs where people watch out for totems.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    The only T5 talent worth anything is HTT (for PvP). Unless you take totemic projection, the T5 healing tree is worthless in competitive PvP. I think you overestimate HTT in higher rated arena/rbgs where people watch out for totems.
    I heavily disagree. Ancestral Guidance is amazing in arena. It heals your entire group, not wasting ticks ever like HTT does, and you don't even need to stop DPS to use it, if you DO and then choose to spam heals with it then your healing output is immense.


  9. #169
    I just tested Earth Grab a bit today:

    the snare/root/what ever doesn't seem to share DR with anything, not even with its own root. The totem can only root a player once tho.

    If you use this macro:

    #showtooltip earthgrab totem
    /cast earthgrab totem
    /script DestroyTotem(2)

    Together with the talent Totemic Restoration, you basically have an AoE root on a 15 sec CD, that can snare for a full 5 sec every 15th sec (DR reset is 18s). That is pretty fucking strong together with a mage

    hf =)
    Last edited by Enaina; 2012-11-01 at 10:58 AM.

  10. #170
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    I heavily disagree. Ancestral Guidance is amazing in arena. It heals your entire group, not wasting ticks ever like HTT does, and you don't even need to stop DPS to use it, if you DO and then choose to spam heals with it then your healing output is immense.
    It depends on the circumstances. HTT will usually get a tick or three off before it gets stomped. If you're getting focused and locked down, though, you're not able to deal damage to benefit from AG. It really depends on what's happening in the fight; if you're not getting focused, you can do ridiculous healing with AG, but if you ARE getting focused, it's not very useful at all. Conductivity is completely useless, though, I think we can all agree.


    I do see a lot of people trying to make arguments again based on "if the other guy doesn't make any mistakes ever and is all up our shiznit, we get rocked". This is a bollocks argument for PvP. You're deliberately stacking the deck against yourself from the outset. PvP is about capitalizing on other people's mistakes. For instance; some people act like if you pop Ascendance, you get locked down immediately with CCs the other team was saving for that purpose. In practice, they might use it on other stuff, or be focusing your partner when you pop it, or a host of other things. In random BGs, I've snapped off an Ascendance and nuked down three people basically by myself in that duration, from 100%. Sure, this is them being bad, but we're back to "capitalizing on other people's mistakes", which is the way PvP works.

    I don't think Elemental's a great spec for 2s, for this reason; it's just too likely they'll focus you, and there's not enough going on. In 3s, 5s, or rated BGs, though, things get more chaotic, giving you more chance to capitalize on things, and less chance that you're the guy they focus down. You can't pick 2v2 Arena and act as if that's the entirety of PvP balance; that's kind of like picking 5-man dungeons as the sole arbiter of PvE performance.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    I heavily disagree. Ancestral Guidance is amazing in arena. It heals your entire group, not wasting ticks ever like HTT does, and you don't even need to stop DPS to use it, if you DO and then choose to spam heals with it then your healing output is immense.
    It's really only useful if you stop damage and (are allowed to) spam HS. Copying 40% of your damage against resiled targets isn't alot of healing outside of burst CDs (see thread title). And you have to work pretty hard to set up your burst CDs.

    I think it's a really good point Endus makes about 2s. Though I feel it's only slightly better in 3s.

  12. #172
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinsoul View Post
    I think it's a really good point Endus makes about 2s. Though I feel it's only slightly better in 3s.
    3s wouldn't be massively better, but I've done some WSG games that were absolutely silly, me and the flag carrier holding off 4-5 attackers trying to gank the flag, between Thunderstorm and burst. Did they bone that attack? Sure. That's the point I was making about capitalizing on mistakes, though; everyone does that, and making mistakes SHOULD get you punished.

    I just see a lot of PvP-based QQ about Ele and Enh, and a lot of it revolves around assuming perfect gameplay on the other guy and bad gameplay by us. And that's not a good way to compare anything. That doesn't mean Ele/Enh are perfect (Enh is okay, Ele needs some work IMO), but you need to analyze them realistically, not by stacking the deck against them. That's just bias, not a rational discussion.

  13. #173
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's the point I was making about capitalizing on mistakes, though; everyone does that, and making mistakes SHOULD get you punished.

    I just see a lot of PvP-based QQ about Ele (...), and a lot of it revolves around assuming perfect gameplay on the other guy and bad gameplay by us.
    Quite a lot of classes/specs have cc abilities that do not punish them when they make a mistake while still having a negative impact on the target, whereas elemental shamans their abilities result in a punishment if not used correctly.

    Tremor / purge are examples of abilities that will not be punished if used incorrectly (unless you tremor when you are not feared). Or at least the consequences are minimal.

    Capacitator totem/totemic projection, wind shear, thunderstorm, hex, are abilities that need to be used correctly or you get punished (as in the ability will do nothing and puts in on cd).

    If a mage polys into your grounding, he can poly again right away. If he misses your cast with cs he still blankets you. If a warrior charges you when ts is available he either charges you again or he heroic leaps to you. Shockwave is a braindead aoe stun where there is no punish for using it incorrectly. You could only argue about the timing, but the spell will always do something and has a consequence for the ele. I guess you get the point I'm trying to make w/p having to go over each spec/spell.

    Basically it doesn't matter for many classes if they play perfect or not vs ele, whereas the ele needs to play perfect to avoid it. On top of that nearly every class has some sort of immunity, which ele doesn't have. Therefore it may look like the other guy has to play perfect, but actually it's not.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I do see a lot of people trying to make arguments again based on "if the other guy doesn't make any mistakes ever and is all up our shiznit, we get rocked". This is a bollocks argument for PvP. You're deliberately stacking the deck against yourself from the outset. PvP is about capitalizing on other people's mistakes. For instance; some people act like if you pop Ascendance, you get locked down immediately with CCs the other team was saving for that purpose. In practice, they might use it on other stuff, or be focusing your partner when you pop it, or a host of other things. In random BGs, I've snapped off an Ascendance and nuked down three people basically by myself in that duration, from 100%. Sure, this is them being bad, but we're back to "capitalizing on other people's mistakes", which is the way PvP works.
    People don't make stupid mistakes like this in high rated PvP though. The deck is stacked against you whether you like it or not. Elemental's defensive tool-set is sub-par compared to others. If a team sits on an elemental shaman, not only do they keep up pressure but they also lock down the shamans damage. They effectively take a 3v3 situation and turn it into a 3v2 just by knowing this. It's not as easy to lock down other casters as it is elemental. I don't blame other people for doing this, hell I'd do it vs another elemental shaman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I don't think Elemental's a great spec for 2s, for this reason; it's just too likely they'll focus you, and there's not enough going on. In 3s, 5s, or rated BGs, though, things get more chaotic, giving you more chance to capitalize on things, and less chance that you're the guy they focus down. You can't pick 2v2 Arena and act as if that's the entirety of PvP balance; that's kind of like picking 5-man dungeons as the sole arbiter of PvE performance.
    2's are irrelevant. I don't know what gave you the idea that the game was balanced around 2's, but its wrong. PvP balance should be centered around 3v3. If blizzard came out as said: "well we just can't balance the game around 3v3 and are removing the rewards from it (like they did with 2's)", then 3's would be irrelevant as well. Until they do this, 3v3 will remain the focus of competitive PvP.

    I'm not saying I don't enjoy 2's, because I still play them (especially on alts), but the game hasn't been focused on 2's for a while now.

  15. #175
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Quite a lot of classes/specs have cc abilities that do not punish them when they make a mistake while still having a negative impact on the target, whereas elemental shamans their abilities result in a punishment if not used correctly.

    Tremor / purge are examples of abilities that will not be punished if used incorrectly (unless you tremor when you are not feared). Or at least the consequences are minimal.

    Capacitator totem/totemic projection, wind shear, thunderstorm, hex, are abilities that need to be used correctly or you get punished (as in the ability will do nothing and puts in on cd).
    Bollocks.

    Wind Shear is no different than any other interrupt, save that the CD and lockout are slightly shorter. In fact, since it's ranged AND has a lower cooldown, it's the least "punishing if you play badly" interrupt.

    Thunderstorm isn't any more "punishing" than any other knockback. It's affected by terrain, so you need to be aware of terrain. Screwing up and knocking them into a wall is YOUR fault for screwing up, not the ability's fault.

    Hex has a CD, but so do a lot of other CCs. Capacitor Totem has a CD and a charge, most long AoE stuns like Capacitor have restrictions as well that you're ignoring.

    The idea that our toolkit is appreciably worse than others' is just absolute bollocks.

    If a mage polys into your grounding, he can poly again right away. If he misses your cast with cs he still blankets you. If a warrior charges you when ts is available he either charges you again or he heroic leaps to you. Shockwave is a braindead aoe stun where there is no punish for using it incorrectly. You could only argue about the timing, but the spell will always do something and has a consequence for the ele. I guess you get the point I'm trying to make w/p having to go over each spec/spell.

    Basically it doesn't matter for many classes if they play perfect or not vs ele, whereas the ele needs to play perfect to avoid it.
    No, every single one of your examples involves a Shaman playing badly, and the other player having everything available at all times and using them in perfect performance to counter whatever we do. Everything you just went over is exactly the kind of malarkey I meant.

    Yes, a mage can Poly after you Ground the first. If you don't Wind Shear the cast. Or hit Thunderstorm if you're near melee range. So that's three casts he's tried and failed to get off. Why isn't he dead yet if he's just trying to spam Polymorph on you?

    Yes, a Warrior can Charge twice. You've also got multiple slows and roots. Once Avatar is fixed and it's no longer CC immunity, Warriors should be challenging but killable; right now it's that 20 seconds of "lol no way to stop me" that makes Warriors insane, it's not the Charges, which can and should be kited.

    On top of that nearly every class has some sort of immunity, which ele doesn't have.
    The pulsing fear/charm break of Tremor Totem fits that bill somewhat. As do the movement reduction advantages a glyphed Ghost Wolf brings. While we need a bit more in this regard, particularly with Ascendance, the issue isn't that we don't have anti-CC abilities, it's that the ones we do have aren't quite enough.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 01:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    People don't make stupid mistakes like this in high rated PvP though.
    Plenty of the matches I've watched say otherwise. They don't make them as often, but people screw up. The margins might be more narrow in higher ratings, but your reactions to capitalize will also be faster, by the same token. EVERYONE hopes the other guy screws up and that you can take advantage. That's the whole point of PvP. That's what fake-casting is all about, to bait an interrupt.

    The deck is stacked against you whether you like it or not. Elemental's defensive tool-set is sub-par compared to others. If a team sits on an elemental shaman, not only do they keep up pressure but they also lock down the shamans damage. They effectively take a 3v3 situation and turn it into a 3v2 just by knowing this.
    1> I've been saying since the beta that I think Elemental needs a bit more defensive protections, and/or better sustained damage; in PvP we're too focused around Ascendance and Ascendance is too easily mitigated by CC/interrupts. So you're "correcting" me by suggesting something I've been saying myself.

    2> If the other team is sitting on you and locking you down, it's not a 3v2. They're expending effort keeping you locked down. At best, it's a 2.5:2 or something. The only way you could claim it's a 3v2 is if it takes literally no effort on the part of the enemy to lock you down, not even a GCD, and that you provide zero benefit to the team in any way at all, even by being a third target. Going completely overboard with hyperbole doesn't foster constructive discussion.

    2's are irrelevant. I don't know what gave you the idea that the game was balanced around 2's, but its wrong.
    I don't know what gave YOU the idea that I thought 2s were a pinnacle of balance. Did you even read the bit you quoted? Look at the last sentence, where I state that looking at 2s for PvP balance is like looking at 5-mans for PvE balance. Who checks numbers for 5-mans when asking about PvE balance? Nobody. Because they're irrelevant.

    I think half the problem here is you just want to disagree with me, rather than actually disagreeing with what I've actually written. Because that's twice you've "corrected" me by basically repeating what I just said.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I just see a lot of PvP-based QQ about Ele and Enh, and a lot of it revolves around assuming perfect gameplay on the other guy and bad gameplay by us. And that's not a good way to compare anything. That doesn't mean Ele/Enh are perfect (Enh is okay, Ele needs some work IMO), but you need to analyze them realistically, not by stacking the deck against them. That's just bias, not a rational discussion.
    You are exaggerating "perfect play" by miles. Average =/ perfect play. Popping cooldowns and zerging an elemental shaman is not "perfect play". On the converse all your arguments have been bad play by opponents.

  17. #177
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    You are exaggerating "perfect play" by miles. Average =/ perfect play. Popping cooldowns and zerging an elemental shaman is not "perfect play". On the converse all your arguments have been bad play by opponents.
    Most specs can't just pop cooldowns and zerg. BM hunters and warriors can, but they're getting tuned back as a result.

    Yes, I've been pointing out that we can capitalize on the mistakes of others. No, that's not the entirety of my argument, and it would REALLY help if you started actually reading my posts completely rather than taking things out of context because you want to disagree with me publicly.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Plenty of the matches I've watched say otherwise. They don't make them as often, but people screw up. The margins might be more narrow in higher ratings, but your reactions to capitalize will also be faster, by the same token. EVERYONE hopes the other guy screws up and that you can take advantage. That's the whole point of PvP. That's what fake-casting is all about, to bait an interrupt.
    Yes everyone makes mistakes, even gladiators. But high rated player don't make mistakes like letting an elemental shaman free case in ascendance, like you use as an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    1> I've been saying since the beta that I think Elemental needs a bit more defensive protections, and/or better sustained damage; in PvP we're too focused around Ascendance and Ascendance is too easily mitigated by CC/interrupts. So you're "correcting" me by suggesting something I've been saying myself.

    2> If the other team is sitting on you and locking you down, it's not a 3v2. They're expending effort keeping you locked down. At best, it's a 2.5:2 or something. The only way you could claim it's a 3v2 is if it takes literally no effort on the part of the enemy to lock you down, not even a GCD, and that you provide zero benefit to the team in any way at all, even by being a third target. Going completely overboard with hyperbole doesn't foster constructive discussion.
    1) I'm not "correcting" anything. It doesn't change anything I quoted. I was arguing about your "deck being stacked against us" argument. The deck is stacked against us, and even you agree so not sure why your quoting me.

    2) They don't have to expend any more effort to lock you down than just DPSing you. Take a shadow priest or lock for example, they can still put out descent damage while being focused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I don't know what gave YOU the idea that I thought 2s were a pinnacle of balance. Did you even read the bit you quoted? Look at the last sentence, where I state that looking at 2s for PvP balance is like looking at 5-mans for PvE balance. Who checks numbers for 5-mans when asking about PvE balance? Nobody. Because they're irrelevant.

    I think half the problem here is you just want to disagree with me, rather than actually disagreeing with what I've actually written. Because that's twice you've "corrected" me by basically repeating what I just said.
    You brought up 2's. You brought it up as an invalid argument (that nobody was even arguing). It doesn't matter if elemental (or any other spec) is bad at 2's, its irreverent. Your arguing that people are QQing about 2's when thats not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Most specs can't just pop cooldowns and zerg. BM hunters and warriors can, but they're getting tuned back as a result.
    Rogue, Ret, and feral sais hi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yes, I've been pointing out that we can capitalize on the mistakes of others. No, that's not the entirety of my argument, and it would REALLY help if you started actually reading my posts completely rather than taking things out of context because you want to disagree with me publicly.
    It would also help if you stopped taking quotes out of context. And while your at it stop taking random bg's as the source for elemental's viability. I'm done with the argument because I don't wanna get banned.
    Last edited by Blitond; 2012-11-01 at 06:07 PM.

  19. #179
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    Yes everyone makes mistakes, even gladiators. But high rated player don't make mistakes like letting an elemental shaman free case in ascendance, like you use as an example.
    That I used as an example of how we could be with a bit more CC protection, since I was stomping bads. I never claimed it works out that way in higher ratings. I was perfectly clear that it was in random BGs and they were letting me get away with it for no good reason.

    2) They don't have to expend any more effort to lock you down than just DPSing you. Take a shadow priest or lock for example, they can still put out descent damage while being focused.
    Double standard. Either you're locking someone down, in which case they can't case, and shadow priests and locks are in close to the same boat as Elemental Shaman are, or you're just burning them, in which case the Shaman can free-cast.

    I assumed by "lock you down", you mean rolling CCs and interrupts. You can lock down other casters the same way. I agree that Elemental is a bit too vulnerable to it, but a lock or priest getting locked down is pretty hosed as well. You seem to be arguing that other classes can just keep on pwning face and Elemental falls to pieces and can't do anything the moment anyone looks at them, and that's hyperbole. It isn't even close to that big a difference.

    You brought up 2's. You brought it up as an invalid argument (that nobody was even arguing). It doesn't matter if elemental (or any other spec) is bad at 2's, its irreverent. Your arguing that people are QQing about 2's when thats not the case.
    No, that's not what I said. Which brings us back to; why are you quoting me if you're not reading my posts?

    Me mentioning 2s as an aside, while discussing all the various types of ranked PvP, is not me bringing up something irrelevant. It's me touching on everything relevant. In the same way that no discussion of PvE as a whole should be focused entirely on raiding.

    Stop taking my comments completely out of context and pretending I said something other than what I actually wrote. I equated 2s to 5-man dungeons. Nobody really cares about the balance in either, but they're still relevant discussion material, which is why I mentioned them in passing.

  20. #180
    All i see is hopeless optimism from this guy Endus

    In random BGs, I've snapped off an Ascendance and nuked down three people basically by myself in that duration, from 100%. Sure, this is them being bad, but we're back to "capitalizing on other people's mistakes", which is the way PvP works.
    Pops Ascendance
    Kills Random guys in BG
    This is the way PvP Works

    What the hell LOL

    Bro u can spin tales all u want and write walls of meaningless text but it doesnt change the fact that Ele Shaman has the weakest defense, inferior tool kit and is the easiest to lock down in comparison to Mage / Lock / Spriest

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