So... I'll have to do these dailies *forever*?

[Chaozu]

This may come as a surprise to you but just because someone doesn't raid or raid regularly doesn't mean they don't want to grow their character. I have 5 alts. I would love to gear them all and watch them get powerful and strong as hell. That's not gonna happen this expansion and for no good reason as far as I can tell. So you can hang out in pandaria for 10 minutes each day and feel amazing about it?

I'm well aware there are people who want to progress their characters/alts even though they have no intention of raiding. The funny thing is though that progress requires effort, otherwise it's just free stuff. And the effort is out there, it's called heroics, but you thought it would take too much time to gear up that way... The average player is still not lvl 90 yet, has perhaps not even bought the expansion yet whatever reason. What I do know is that by the time they hit 90 and want to progress their character, they will have no problem doing so since everyone else are already geared and Blizzard will likely have made further steps to ease up the gearing process (as they always do, over time).

[Kittyvicious]

No, those people will actually not even try to gear up like that because they have nothing to gear up for. Those people are probably not even interested in raiding, have very limited time to play, and only log on to do whatever it is they think is fun. I think most of them level alts.

Complete misrepresentation of an entire player base. Thank you for speaking for millions of people with assumptions!

It is a farce to keep using the argument that casual players who don't want to actively raid shouldn't or don't want gear upgrades. The community, game design, and long history of this game has hammered home that epics are what matters. They look awesome, they make everything you want to do easier/more efficient and you are foolish to think otherwise.

It's a problem that you have to do dailies to spend valor. If valor is effectively worthless for people who aren't raiding and thus don't alrady have access to the epics, why is it even in the game and why does EVERYTHING you do reward it? I wish people would take this surprisingly good expansion for what it is, instead of letting their already negative expectations be launched to much too great heights while overlooking all the flaws.

[The Fiend]

Listen, I know you dont want to hear this but..WORK, it's what made the almighty BC good, shittons of attunement grinds and dailies, so start working. I sure as hell want it to be easier, but let's face it, what good is a game without any challenge?

You know what else made BC good? When Daily quest grinds were optional and I could get all my gear, and reps through running dungeons or handing in items. I don't like having my day summed up as "Do 20mins of daily quest, now no progression on your main!"

[Glorious Leader]

It would be useful... alas, I don't have any raid items to actually use, because, surprise surprise, I can only run them twice a week, so I have YET to reach the level that VP gets useful for me until I start gaining decent items from raids.

However, what about people gearing for raids? JP is mostly useless, most of the items bought are for slots easily taken by other items from heroics.

Hell I know for a fact most of the JP items are worse than drops from most heroic bosses for tanks. So we basically get a cross contamination for loot.

JP is mostly useless, Heroic loot is only worth to get into LFR and raids, VP is all tied to grinding reps, Raid gear is both easier to get and better than VP gear.

So Basically. JP and VP are useless for me. I am basically stuck in a loop where I either need to grind reps OR get random lucky drops from raids. There is zero smooth transition at all.

Yuup. The system was great how it was because it was smooth and had a decent pacing. If blizzard felt the pacing was to much then I don't know nerf the weekly valor cap or some shit. Instead they just kicked dungeon players in the balls so hard so they could get people out in the world for like brief 10 minute bursts. CHOICE...

[Noselacri]

Correct me if I am wrong ...
The charm is a reward for a task. The daily is a task. If you do not want the reward you do not have to do the task. The reward is a bonus not a necessity....

The reward is completely unrelated to the task. In fact, the reward is tailored for players who specifically dislike the task in question. It's not some optional bonus, it's a) required by many competitive raid guilds and b) an opportunity cost that makes it a matter of general expectation. Do you understand why people raid? Do you understand the motivations behind that activity? Well, it seems you don't.

There was also a time when mages had two viable specs: fire and frost. Oh, and all the raid content was immune to fire. Sure, your spec was "optional" -- you did have two specs. It's just that one was effectively out of the question. To raid without your three weekly second rolls for loot is basically out of the question for most players. The reason we raid is incompatible with the notion of just not doing something that effectively gives you 2-3 extra items per month.

It isn't any more optional than gems and enchants are optional - they're just an added bonus, after all - and this fortune charm scheme is akin to having item enchants available only via spending eight hours a week fishing. Sure, if you ask people who enjoy fishing, they'll say it's fine. Try to look at it objectively.

[Chaozu]

It would be useful... alas, I don't have any raid items to actually use, because, surprise surprise, I can only run them twice a week, so I have YET to reach the level that VP gets useful for me until I start gaining decent items from raids.

However, what about people gearing for raids? JP is mostly useless, most of the items bought are for slots easily taken by other items from heroics.

Hell I know for a fact most of the JP items are worse than drops from most heroic bosses for tanks. So we basically get a cross contamination for loot.

JP is mostly useless, Heroic loot is only worth to get into LFR and raids, VP is all tied to grinding reps, Raid gear is both easier to get and better than VP gear.

So Basically. JP and VP are useless for me. I am basically stuck in a loop where I either need to grind reps OR get random lucky drops from raids. There is zero smooth transition at all.

Of course JP is useless after you are HC geared! That's the point! JP is meant to help out while gearing up in HC's, you ran a dungeon but didn't get any loot? Here, a free piece of not quite as good, but almost as good gear of your choice!

When was JP ever used to get raiding gear? Or even in the slightest interesting points for those who already raided? O.o

And you will get VP in time so VP won't be useless for very long. I also know for a fact that you aren't even fully VP capped yet, unless you play on an american server and just farmed up 1k valor points on this very day. So you will be fine for a while longer.

[Glorious Leader]

I'm well aware there are people who want to progress their characters/alts even though they have no intention of raiding. The funny thing is though that progress requires effort, otherwise it's just free stuff. And the effort is out there, it's called heroics, but you thought it would take too much time to gear up that way... The average player is still not lvl 90 yet, has perhaps not even bought the expansion yet whatever reason. What I do know is that by the time they hit 90 and want to progress their character, they will have no problem doing so since everyone else are already geared and Blizzard will likely have made further steps to ease up the gearing process (as they always do, over time).

You are correct that the average player still isn't 90 yet and Blizzard should be extremely thankful for this. It gives them time to sort this mess out and figure out a way to fix this shit. We are simple arguing on the margins. If their is to much effort and it feels forced then people will view it as a barrier to access and with guys like the people in this forum telling them to bad they will simply leave. The problem is essentially that makes this game cataclysm 2.0. Any nerfs will cause a huge reactionary response from dumb people and since all this shit is tied to "effort" then nerfs will only make the players who put in the "effort" feel shitty about the "Effort" they put in in the first place. Effectively your telling people unsub now because it won't matter what you do they'll nerf it. Well I agree they'll nerf it but it will only be to their own detriment. This system should have never left beta like it was.

[Chaozu]

Yuup. The system was great how it was because it was smooth and had a decent pacing. If blizzard felt the pacing was to much then I don't know nerf the weekly valor cap or some shit. Instead they just kicked dungeon players in the balls so hard so they could get people out in the world for like brief 10 minute bursts. CHOICE...

Except you still don't need to be in the world at all to get raid ready... If it's about the coins then get over it, I think it's less than 10 % chance of getting bonus loot, and that is not mandatory. Yes you will get the feeling of possibly missing out, but really 10 minutes a day that you would otherwise have spent afk in Orgrimmar? Is that really so sodding terrible?

[Glorious Leader]

Of course JP is useless after you are HC geared! That's the point! JP is meant to help out while gearing up in HC's, you ran a dungeon but didn't get any loot? Here, a free piece of not quite as good, but almost as good gear of your choice!

When was JP ever used to get raiding gear? Or even in the slightest interesting points for those who already raided? O.o

And you will get VP in time so VP won't be useless for very long. I also know for a fact that you aren't even fully VP capped yet, unless you play on an american server and just farmed up 1k valor points on this very day. So you will be fine for a while longer.

Except that wasn't how it worked in cataclysm and wrath IIRC. It was never not quite as good it always (more or less) just as good. The number matched in other words. People look at 458 realize how shitty it is, recognize it for what it is another barrier to content, recognize their getting gipped compared to what happened in other expansions and leave. Seriously who in their right mind thinks it's good to farm content to buy gear LESS than the content you farmed? That way lies madness...

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 02:56 PM ----------

Except you still don't need to be in the world at all to get raid ready... If it's about the coins then get over it, I think it's less than 10 % chance of getting bonus loot, and that is not mandatory. Yes you will get the feeling of possibly missing out, but really 10 minutes a day that you would otherwise have spent afk in Orgrimmar? Is that really so sodding terrible?

Yea it is when you consider they killed the thing that I loved doing most for the past 4-5 years. Beefing my guy out in epics by running dungeons for jp and vp. Nothing to do with raid ready or not, I didn't even mention the raids in the posts you quoted. It doesn't have to be terrible mind you, they can keep the dailies in for rep I guess. Would just like it that the thing I had the most fun doing for the past 4-5 years got kicked in the balls for you to get 10 minutes of pandria time.

Ultimately my feeling about all of this is that dungeons should be for pve gearing EXCLUSIVELY. Meaning pve rewards like valor gear should come from dungeons not dailies. Dailies should have some other compelling reason to do them. I mean it's hard to think of one because dailies are really just that inflexible and rigid but that's what it is. I recognize some people like to do dailies and it does give you your 10 minutes of exercise so that's fine just put the reward back into the dungeon and make it roughly equivalent to what you get running dailies. Were not even talking about that actually Blizzard doesn' think theirs a problem at all.

I read another suggestion on the official forums today and I wonder what you guys think. Have scenarios grant rep.

[soulcrusher]

personally i think its a big step back in terms of design. look at new games like GW2, you play for fun not because you have to grind.

[Chaozu]

You are correct that the average player still isn't 90 yet and Blizzard should be extremely thankful for this. It gives them time to sort this mess out and figure out a way to fix this shit. We are simple arguing on the margins. If their is to much effort and it feels forced then people will view it as a barrier to access and with guys like the people in this forum telling them to bad they will simply leave. The problem is essentially that makes this game cataclysm 2.0. Any nerfs will cause a huge reactionary response from dumb people and since all this shit is tied to "effort" then nerfs will only make the players who put in the "effort" feel shitty about the "Effort" they put in in the first place. Effectively your telling people unsub now because it won't matter what you do they'll nerf it. Well I agree they'll nerf it but it will only be to their own detriment. This system should have never left beta like it was.

Yeah if you want me to I can easily tell people to unsub now if they have no idea that in 6 months their current gear will be totally outdated, that you have to stay updated, to stay updated... And whilst nerfs will come in time, and people will rage over it, that's not anything new. Blizzard has been nerfing content since vanilla, the biggest nerf I remember on raids was Black Temple when sunwell was released. I'm sure there was more that I have simply forgotten. However Blizzard is going to try to keep the sense of progressing through the expansion, unlike Wrath and Cata where you simply ignored all outdated raids, if you are freshly leveled in at the end of MoP you will have to go through all of the raiding content via LFR and new HC's in-between, instead of jumping the latest HC.

[laserguns]

"OMG I MISS WHEN BC HAD EPIC GRINDS AND DAILIES"
"OMG I HATE THAT PANDAREN HAS BORING GRINDS AND DAILIES"
..Why is it boring, aren't they both grinds and dailies including killing? MoP has better technology however, so what's wrong?
"WOW IS TOO EASY, MAKE IT HARD"
*cant get gear*
WOW IS TOO HARD MAKE IT EASY.

Listen, I know you dont want to hear this but..WORK, it's what made the almighty BC good, shittons of attunement grinds and dailies, so start working. I sure as hell want it to be easier, but let's face it, what good is a game without any challenge?

You didn't have to touch dailies in TBC. The main factions had no dailies and you got rep by doing normal or heroic dungeons. The Ogres, Skyguard, Netherwing etc gave only cosmetic and low iLvl loot so you could ignore those. Sunwell dailies are the only ones which had some semi-useful reward (nice trinkets for alchemists and new gem recipes).

The only daily I remember farming in TBC was those cute crocolisk pets from the fishing one..

[Noselacri]

but really 10 minutes a day that you would otherwise have spent afk in Orgrimmar? Is that really so sodding terrible?

You have to do 6,42 dailies per day to get your weekly quota of fortune charms. You can't do 6,42 dailies in ten minutes. On a crowded server, you often can't do it in 30 minutes. Hell, if you're on a high-pop server and trying to do the actually useful dailies, the ones where you actually need the rep... it can take a couple of hours every day. Even if you don't care about that and only need your fortune charms because you're a competitive raider, 45 daily quests is quite a lot of hours doing what is objectively one of the least loved activities in the game. If the reward was something related to dailies - say, a bonus to reputation gain - that'd be more acceptable.

I don't mind the rep grind. It's a bit long, but there's a goal that you can work towards and accomplish and be done with it. It's also a more reasonable concept -- you can do this task and eventually you get rewarded, but there are other ways to get similar/better rewards. It's not as if the reputation gets reset every content patch and the rewards replaced by new BiS items you can buy at the quartermaster. Pretty soon, the reputations will be optional. If you want to be a competitive raider, you will have to do your 45/week dailies forever.

[Chaozu]

Yea it is when you consider they killed the thing that I loved doing most for the past 4-5 years. Beefing my guy out in epics by running dungeons for jp and vp. Nothing to do with raid ready or not, I didn't even mention the raids in the posts you quoted. It doesn't have to be terrible mind you, they can keep the dailies in for rep I guess. Would just like it that the thing I had the most fun doing for the past 4-5 years got kicked in the balls for you to get 10 minutes of pandria time.

If you're not planning to raid then there is no reason to do dailies. And if it's about getting purple colored items instead of blue ones, you can either be color blind like me and not see any difference ^^, or you can try not care about it because the next set of HC's will likely drop purple loot.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 05:01 PM ----------

You have to do 6,42 dailies per day to get your weekly quota of fortune charms. You can't do 6,42 dailies in ten minutes. On a crowded server, you often can't do it in 30 minutes. 45 daily quests is quite a lot of hours doing what is objectively one of the least loved activities in the game. If the reward was something related to dailies - say, a bonus to reputation gain - that'd be more acceptable.

The reward is a slim chance of extra gear in a raid, it's a bonus reward that you have to put in very little time outside of raids to receive. I really don't see any problem...

[felhunter]

i think you raised a fair point that the charms should prehaps should come from another source also.

the point is, when should that happen and at which rate.
personally at this point in the expack i would say no too a different source for charms. but when the expansion continues i agree that there should be alternatives to do doing dailies. since i dont intend to do the ones i do atm for the rest of the expansion.
part of this problem of dailies becoming boring cause you already did them so often will be solved when a new patch hits and new dailies are added (like 5.1 will). however i can see it being an issue for people who dont wanna do dailies
how else should one earn charms then? well i suspose dungeon/scenario's and battlegrounds could award them. this however brings the question along with it: at which rate should these award charms? since unlike dailies you can litterly spam them.
this is an hard question too answer, and will leave one of the two options as favorable. personally i think dailies should be a better charm income then the other source. with it being a secondary source for people who dont wanna do dailies and therefore choose too have a slightly slower charm income.

[Gurbz]

Except that wasn't how it worked in cataclysm and wrath IIRC. It was never not quite as good it always (more or less) just as good. The number matched in other words. People look at 458 realize how shitty it is, recognize it for what it is another barrier to content, recognize their getting gipped compared to what happened in other expansions and leave. Seriously who in their right mind thinks it's good to farm content to buy gear LESS than the content you farmed? That way lies madness...

Which is why if you think about it like that you are wrong. I'm sorry but there is no other way to put it. You seem to still think that you are doing heroics to get JP to get gear. Understandable since that is how it worked for most of Wrath and all of Cata. But it was a terrible, boring system that handed out loot way too fast. I should not be able to hit level cap, then be able to go right into raiding without any problem within a few hours.

You are running dungeons to get loot. That drops from bosses in those dungeons. JPs are the consolation prize, not the point of running the dungeon. The JP are awarded so that you can get a few pieces that are intentionally not quite as good to hold you until you get an actual drop. They are not intended to be a primary source of gear. You still seem to think they are, which is why you continue to be wrong.

[Glorious Leader]

Yeah if you want me to I can easily tell people to unsub now if they have no idea that in 6 months their current gear will be totally outdated, that you have to stay updated, to stay updated... And whilst nerfs will come in time, and people will rage over it, that's not anything new. Blizzard has been nerfing content since vanilla, the biggest nerf I remember on raids was Black Temple when sunwell was released. I'm sure there was more that I have simply forgotten. However Blizzard is going to try to keep the sense of progressing through the expansion, unlike Wrath and Cata where you simply ignored all outdated raids, if you are freshly leveled in at the end of MoP you will have to go through all of the raiding content via LFR and new HC's in-between, instead of jumping the latest HC.

Yea but the community has never been this divisive. Cataclysm split the community. The nerfs that are coming in mists will further crack it. As we speak the same reactionaries are giving the same arguments for why nerfs shouldn't happen. YOU JUST WANT GEAR EASILY HANDED TO YOU. L2P. Any change will be immediately and viciously shit on. I guess Blizzard can afford to do this, it seems like no matter what they do people will defend them. Never the less expect sub loses. The sooner they fix this bullshit the better. This system should have never left beta the way it was.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 03:04 PM ----------

Which is why if you think about it like that you are wrong. I'm sorry but there is no other way to put it. You seem to still think that you are doing heroics to get JP to get gear. Understandable since that is how it worked for most of Wrath and all of Cata. But it was a terrible, boring system that handed out loot way too fast. I should not be able to hit level cap, then be able to go right into raiding without any problem within a few hours.

You are running dungeons to get loot. That drops from bosses in those dungeons. JPs are the consolation prize, not the point of running the dungeon. The JP are awarded so that you can get a few pieces that are intentionally not quite as good to hold you until you get an actual drop. They are not intended to be a primary source of gear. You still seem to think they are, which is why you continue to be wrong.

It wasn't terrible or boring at all. It was rewarding. Perhaps it was to rewarding sure but it didn't need to be gutted so badly. I mean do you think running dailies for rep is sooooooo much better? Like If I wanted a game where I was subject to nothing but RNG I'd go play diablo. WoW got successful because it moved AWAY from this model and made progressive changes to EASE the burden of RNG. Furthermore all of this is just a tad sneaky on Blizzards part. The systems you think were terrible were WILDLY popular and used by virtually everyone to some extent or another. Their gutting will not be a pleasant or well received affair. The current daily mechanic is alot like the NV buff in diablo 3. It's not amazing or particularly inspired or even good but they stick such an amazing reward behind it, people use it and then say hey look how good it is.

[KtN]

I don't see how elder charms are necessary in a raiding guild where there's either a decent loot council everyone agrees to or just need/greed loot rolling. I would hope that a decent guild wouldn't use the charms as a mechanic simply because it's incredibly divisive and basically makes in-guild raiding feel like a "nolifes win everything" kind of thing. The only time normies win rolls will be by the grace of those that have the luxury of playing all day every day. To me, these things are for LFR and the world bosses. There they'll see good use. However, if you're doing 10 or 25 man normals / HC raiding with your guild I don't see you doing either until you're done with your main and have time to do other shit. So you'll have to choose between charms or levelling an alt. That's an acceptable choice for blizzard to pose in my opinion.

As mentioned though, I've foregone on doing random heroics and instead have been doing all available dailies. I'm 2 weeks ahead and will be 3 weeks ahead by the end of the day. I don't think getting elder charms is all that hard considering tillers are right next to where you'll be making your buff food which may or may not include the anglers as well if you're doing fishing with that cooking. That'll net you plenty.

If you're just looking to turtle inside your guild doing nothing but log on, raid, log off - yeah, you might be worried. But you shouldn't be in a guild that allows for elder charm mechanics to be used on raid fights then. Not fair? Of course it isn't.

[Chaozu]

Yea but the community has never been this divisive. Cataclysm split the community. The nerfs that are coming in mists will further crack it. As we speak the same reactionaries are giving the same arguments for why nerfs shouldn't happen. YOU JUST WANT GEAR EASILY HANDED TO YOU. L2P. Any change will be immediately and viciously shit on. I guess Blizzard can afford to do this, it seems like no matter what they do people will defend them. Never the less expect sub loses. The sooner they fix this bullshit the better. This system should have never left beta the way it was.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 03:04 PM ----------



It wasn't terrible or boring at all. It was rewarding. To rewarding sure but it didn't need to be gutted so badly. I mean do you think running dailies for rep is sooooooo much better? Like If I wanted a game where I subject to nothing but RNG I'd go play diablo. WoW got sucessful because it moved AWAY from this model and made progressive changes to EASE the burden of RNG.

I think they will get more subscribers from people glad to have something to do, a reason to log on, than the amount of people lost due to the barriers. Purely speculation on my side however.

[Masser]

dailys are for people who want to do more quests after they finished all the quests in pandaria.