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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felshen View Post
    That's because reputations were made pointless in Cata. They really didn't offer anything good except for *maybe* a good blue item for your spec, and that quickly became outdated. You didn't even need to do dailies for them and for the most part they had little lore or impact on the game.

    Also always thought "Therazane" herself being a faction was odd, instead of something referencing the other elementals that affect the rep. The ramkahen only had two or so dailies, and honestly didn't feel important enough to be a rep faction, except they needed one for uldum (that zone was a letdown, but I digress). Dragonmaw were actually kinda cool, but again they didn't offer much, not even any vanity items. Earthen ring coulda been done better, also the rep vendor was in an obscure location. While it would have been nice to have some reason to go back to vashjir, it doesn't make sense that their only rep vendor would be under the ocean.
    Actually at first no they weren't. It wasn't until you got into raids they became useless but that will happen in Mists to. That system was PERFECT though. From a player standpoint absolutely. It made your regular activities double rewarding. It was a double stuffed Oreo. Or doing it with two chicks at the same time.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #362
    Dreadlord internetheroxD's Avatar
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    You missed the part where you wern't forced to be exalted, you dont 'have' to do anything if you dont want to.

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  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I didn't say either was more enjoyable, just that your efforts are met with more rewards in an overall take on the situation. Since you specifically asked, it is incredibly more favorable. All your resources are actually shared between characters and there is nothing that forces you into any one activity on your main. There are a variety of approaches to completing the same goals, instead of only one way to accomplish one goal.

    It's not perfect. Most people that are not satisfied with the MMO design as a whole echo that our time needs to be rewarded for an account as a whole. It shouldn't matter if you want to farm currency on your main to give to your alt. Crafting materials, achievements, currency, etc should be for your whole account. It's an outdated and elitist design that says you are required to invest x amount of time per character you want to experience or else you get nothing.

    The problem with Blizzard is that they concede these points while outright contradicting them at the same time. WoW lives in a continual paradox in the present where they are trying to concede just enough to keep people paying, while trying to convince you that you don't want it the way you are asking for it. Then we have the outspoken community which unknowingly seeks to reinforce this same terrible mentality.

    It's not about give it with no effort, or less effort...it's about give it with choices. Don't put valor on every activity in the game and then turn around and give only one way to 'earn' spending it. I've gone on about this in too many threads recently, so it doesn't really need a lot of explanation.

    They either need to make the game hardcore or open the whole door for choices. You can't just leave it ajar, only to close it as someone tries to get their foot in it. Either open or closed, nothing in between. People need to see that this is not for the benefit of EITHER side of their customer base. It is an attempt to capture each side *just* enough to keep making money.

    BINGO.HOW FUN!!! This expansion is a HUGE contradiction. I don't get how people let them get away with it. Christ if you read what they say it's like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. They won't give pvpers an honor weapon because in ghost crawlers own words then every pve guy would farm it, because *SHOCK* it would just be to rewarding. They'll put pve valor gear on vendors though and ignore their own directives. In fact I think they specifically ignored their own usual mind set because they knew if they didn't make running dailies rewarding enough nobody would do them. So they took the reward out of the dungeons and put it on the daily rep vendors. It's a sneaky change and it doesn't keep people out in the world Dailies can never do they. They are finite and end and then people just go back to org. It's such a massive 180. Everyone was defending them on the grounds that they made the game more casual and accessible and the handful of people who were mad about it all left along time ago. Now those people who defended them about being casual instead of being mad that Blizzard changed it's stance on them, now those people just changed their stances instead to reflect whatever Blizzard thinks is a good idea. This community sometimes...

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 06:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by internetheroxD View Post
    You missed the part where you wern't forced to be exalted, you dont 'have' to do anything if you dont want to.
    *sigh* I feel that the community will be the biggest problem in steering this ship around this time. Maybe it always is. Yes I don't need to do anything in warcraft. I don't even need to log the fuck on. I can sit at screen and scratch my ass. However when the alternatives are far weaker then yes I feel forced to do dailies. That the misconception that's going on here I feel. It's not forced in the sense that someone has a gun to my head, it's forced in the sense that one path is far more rewarding and the only way to get the cheese at the end is to take that path. I mean technically even if someone had a gun to your head can it be said you don't have a choice? well no you can be a hero obviously and probably die but that alternative is worse so you don't have a choice. Guided or compelled is probably a better word but in a very real sense it is forced. Do you honestly think people would do dailies otherwise? I mean unless they felt they were forced to do it.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-10 at 06:19 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #364
    Dreadlord internetheroxD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    it's forced in the sense that one path is far more rewarding
    Sure thing, and nothing wrong to _earn_ your reward by doing the dailies.
    Its not fun to get stuff for free, more rewarding when you earn them yourself.

    Thank you Shyama <3
    Everything's amazing but nobody's happy
    -Louis CK

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Back when I started UBRS, Stratholme and Scholomance were the raids buddy, so in a way, all reps were tied to raids. Doesn't mean I couldn't grind them differently. What I am getting at is I don't really give a shit about the rewards, I want another way to get those reps up without the fucking terrible set of dailies.
    Except that this does not answer the question I asked at all (and also is trying to sidestep the question with semantics).

    In Vanilla, a raid was a 40 man dungeon. This was standard untill ZG / AQ introduced the 20 man sized raids. Regardless of what you semantically want to call it, Scholo / UBRS and Strath were never "raids". They were just dungeons with larger then normal caps on the number of party members you could take in.

    As to the question i asked, you still havent mentioned any Vanilla era Rep-Related gear people grinded for the purpose of getting the gear for the gear itself.

    Starting with TBC, and progressing from there, blizzard has slowly been moving towards having Reputation grinds be a viable source for "sub-raid" level gear to gear your character out if you are a person who is not capable of raiding for gear. In wrath and cata rep vendors usually sold Epic gear with Ilevel eqivilent to entry tier raid gear, usually enough to outfit a moderate number of slots on your character with "raid level" gear if you got exalted with all available factions.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 06:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    Uh, the Cenarion gear outside of AQ was pretty much necessary due to the resist on it. Thorium Brotherhood armor patterns for Fire Resist on Ragnaros, Frost Resist gear for Naxx. .... Classic was pretty much all rep. Hell a Timbermaw Hold had the best agility weapon enchant.
    Right, but again, you were not grinding rep for the gear because you wanted the gear. You were grinding rep for the gear because it was required to get past an artificial resist cockblock placed in raid progression. No one looked at the Cenarian Nature Resist gear and went "hey, those pants would be a great upgrade for my toon, im going to spend 2 weeks mindlessly slaughtering mobs in silithus so i can buy them". Where as at the start of Cata (for example), people could legitimately look at, say, the Caster Neck from Dragonmaw / Wildhammer rep and say "wow, that neck is potentially best in slot for my character until my guild gets to Heroic Valiona / Theralian, I have a reason to work on getting exalted with them".

    In vanilla, barring certain examples like trade skill patterns, there was NO gear (not vanity items, but Armor / Weapons, etc) that people ever ground rep for the purposes of getting those items solely for the item itself. Most of the rep grinds for gear was because the gear was needed for raiding, but not as an upgrade, instead as a gear check item (resist checks mostly).

    And no, I am not counting the 3 / 5 piece sets of epic gear you could get from Zandalari / Cenarian rep related to ZG / AQ either, sicne those essentially required raiding to get, and were basicly rep-gated raid gear.
    Last edited by Surfd; 2012-10-10 at 06:24 AM.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by internetheroxD View Post
    Sure thing, and nothing wrong to _earn_ your reward by doing the dailies.
    Its not fun to get stuff for free, more rewarding when you earn them yourself.
    It's not fun to do dailies. At all. It's also not fun to have your play time dictated to you. Lot's of things aren't fun. People insisting that I don't want to earn my loot because dailies suck balls and furthermore that this game is a fucking job get the fuck over it is not fun. Frankly though I'm not sure what your talking about. I earned every piece of gear I have going back to vanilla and all through Wotlk and Cataclysm.

    I mean "earning" gear in a game is such a funny concept. Maybe through the sweat of my virtual brow? Through pixelated intensive daily labor? I guess we've been on random memory welfare for the past couple years? It's so ludicrous.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-10 at 06:26 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    BINGO.HOW FUN!!! This expansion is a HUGE contradiction. I don't get how people let them get away with it. Christ if you read what they say it's like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. They won't give pvpers an honor weapon because in ghost crawlers own words then every pve guy would farm it, because *SHOCK* it would just be to rewarding. They'll put pve valor gear on vendors though and ignore their own directives. In fact I think they specifically ignored their own usual mind set because they knew if they didn't make running dailies rewarding enough nobody would do them. So they took the reward out of the dungeons and put it on the daily rep vendors. It's a sneaky change and it doesn't keep people out in the world Dailies can never do they. They are finite and end and then people just go back to org. It's such a massive 180. Everyone was defending them on the grounds that they made the game more casual and accessible and the handful of people who were mad about it all left along time ago. Now those people who defended them about being casual instead of being mad that Blizzard changed it's stance on them, now those people just changed their stances instead to reflect whatever Blizzard thinks is a good idea. This community sometimes...

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 06:15 AM ----------



    *sigh* I feel that the community will be the biggest problem in steering this ship around this time. Maybe it always is. Yes I don't need to do anything in warcraft. I don't even need to log the fuck on. I can sit at screen and scratch my ass. However when the alternatives are far weaker then yes I feel forced to do dailies. That the misconception that's going on here I feel. It's not forced in the sense that someone has a gun to my head, it's forced in the sense that one path is far more rewarding and the only way to get the cheese at the end is to take that path. Guided or compelled is probably a better word but in a very real sense it is forced. Do you honestly think people would do dailies otherwise? I mean unless they felt they were forced to do it.
    Basically people aren't forced into anything however if you have a limited amount of playtime you are compelled to do the most efficient things if you ever want to get into LFR etc...(and heart of fear is gonna be a tight squeeze for a lot of people at 470) So instead of playing how you want you end up playing how Blizzard thinks you should. This is going to eventually bite Blizzard in the ass as people get bored of doing these they didn't want to do in the first place, and those people start to get burned out on the game. Instead of providing relatively equal viable alternatives to play how you want there is a very well defined and optimal way to play that you can ignore but the price is not being able to do the other things you want to do.(like get into heart of fear)

    Honestly for the first time I am considering not gearing up my alts this time around, far too much of a pain in the ass. That means that I will likely get bored faster and cancel faster. I don't feel negative or upset about it, I just accept it for what it is, if Blizzard wants to keep people subbed then they can adjust rewards to not be so one sided, if they want people to burn out they can keep things as they are. It is their pay check and their choice. The only choice I can make is who gets my money.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Basically people aren't forced into anything however if you have a limited amount of playtime you are compelled to do the most efficient things if you ever want to get into LFR etc...(and heart of fear is gonna be a tight squeeze for a lot of people at 470) So instead of playing how you want you end up playing how Blizzard thinks you should. This is going to eventually bite Blizzard in the ass as people get bored of doing these they didn't want to do in the first place, and those people start to get burned out on the game. Instead of providing relatively equal viable alternatives to play how you want there is a very well defined and optimal way to play that you can ignore but the price is not being able to do the other things you want to do.(like get into heart of fear)

    Honestly for the first time I am considering not gearing up my alts this time around, far too much of a pain in the ass. That means that I will likely get bored faster and cancel faster. I don't feel negative or upset about it, I just accept it for what it is, if Blizzard wants to keep people subbed then they can adjust rewards to not be so one sided, if they want people to burn out they can keep things as they are. It is their pay check and their choice. The only choice I can make is who gets my money.
    Yuup. My alts will probably remain untouched this expansion. Which is kinda shitty I had plans to play on all of them. *shrug* it's stupid and they've put themselves in a stupid position. I feel they will eventually progressively nerf all this crap anyway and then all that "hard work" (LOLOLOLOLOLPOLOLOLO) people put in will be meaningless and they'll be just as upset. I mean I could just sub a month or two from now and save myself the headache. Like they just buried themselves by doing this. Blizzard just made it harder on themselves and the grief that will come their way because the virtual labor crowd will get mad if any changes are made. It invalidates their virtual sweat of the brow and they get mad. That's why rep grinding in cataclysm was great. It was painless and pain free so even if they nerfed it nobody cared. It honestly feels like cataclysm 2.0 again and I hate thinking that. Mists was fun right up until lvl 90. BUt as it stands now if Blizzard makes any progressive decisions the other side will rabble. In fact the few progressive decisions they have made have already garnered the ire of many. Who the fuck beta tested this game? It should have never left beta like this

    I honestly get the feeling they're bored of making this game. Their most creative solution to the problem of giving people something to do and getting people out in the world is daily quests. Think about how uncreative that is. How unoriginal and uninspired that decision is. Not only that it's a piss poor solution to either problem. It gives people something to do but not something particularly compelling that's why the valor reward HAD to be tied to it. On the other hand they've done some really inspired things this expansion. Talents and glyphs are great. I hope they throw alot more minor ones in. I love customizing the look of abilities. In fact they really ought to tie minor glyphs to rep an daily quest farming. Make it a cosmetic thing.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-10 at 06:38 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #369
    Bloodsail Admiral Narshe's Avatar
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    Almost 600 charms now. I have no issue doing dailies. Gold, charms, rep, armor, mounts. Whats not to like?

    http://joekey.deviantart.com Sig by Lilliputia! <3

  10. #370
    Dreadlord Shambulanced's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    . Instead of providing relatively equal viable alternatives to play how you want there is a very well defined and optimal way to play that you can ignore but the price is not being able to do the other things you want to do.(like get into heart of fear)

    Honestly for the first time I am considering not gearing up my alts this time around, far too much of a pain in the ass. That means that I will likely get bored faster and cancel faster. I don't feel negative or upset about it, I just accept it for what it is, if Blizzard wants to keep people subbed then they can adjust rewards to not be so one sided, if they want people to burn out they can keep things as they are. It is their pay check and their choice. The only choice I can make is who gets my money.
    This. One thousand times this.

    The problem right now is that by tying JP/vp gear to rep, AND by making JP gear inferior to dungeon drops, blizzard has essentially taken all the "choice" they promised us in MOP and thrown it out the window. Your vp is useless without dailies. Without dungeons, you earn vp at an absolute snail's pace, meaning you essentially need dungeons for the vp. They require each other. It's not a choice.

    And yeah, gearing Alts is such a horrific thought (I am finding gearing my main tedious enough...I now not only lose on gear to bad ferals but bad monks as well) that I haven't even tried to motivate myself to level one up.

    I love this game, but ugh. Doing all the I dailies is really, really tedious, and the majority of them are no fun whatsoever. The pathetic thing is some of the most fun dailies are in mostly raid-useless reps, like fighting the shark for the Anglers or poison bombing in Klaxxiland. (I say Klaxxi dailies are useless because beyond revered there are really no great rewards. You should be able to pick up 463 weapons easier from dungeons than grinding to exalted.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Narshe View Post
    Almost 600 charms now. I have no issue doing dailies. Gold, charms, rep, armor, mounts. Whats not to like?
    How obscenely repetitive and dull the majority of the quests are? I thought the Golden Lotus quests were bad, now I am doing Shado-pan and August Celestials and they are just awful, boring, obnoxious,

    You know what would be nice? Half the HP of the quest mobs. Every fight drags on if my CDs aren't up. If they're worried about gear making them irrelevant, what's the point of trying to balance against future gear? By the time we get that geared we'll be exalted and skipping the dailies anyway. Dumb. I don't like every quest to feel like a soloed scenario.
    Last edited by Shambulanced; 2012-10-10 at 06:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by flick86 View Post
    It is not and never will be elitist to expect another player to know how to play his class and carry his own weight.
    #Blizzardplsdontdodis

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Narshe View Post
    Almost 600 charms now. I have no issue doing dailies. Gold, charms, rep, armor, mounts. Whats not to like?
    Yes I imagine that if you like doing them, then you would not have any issues. And I actually enjoy them to some extent, but some of them have already started getting tedious and I'm still just working on my main. I think there is more of an issue for people who don't actually like quests and prefer to run dungeons and raids.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by bajskorv View Post
    You're one of those who want all the gear without putting time and effort into it, I see.
    If that time and effort consists of daily quests? HELL YES! I definitely don't want to put time and effort into something I don't find fun. Why would you? And why would you ridiculously act condescending towards someone that would rather spend their time having fun than not having fun?

  13. #373
    What is really going to suck is when the next tier of valor comes out, and they put it all on some new factions with new reputation grinds.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Shambulanced View Post
    Without dungeons, you earn vp at an absolute snail's pace, meaning you essentially need dungeons for the vp. They require each other. It's not a choice.
    Not true. Klaxxi + Golden Lotus + Tillers dailies 7 days a week for me gets me valor capped without running a single dungeon.

  15. #375
    Dreadlord Shambulanced's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    What is really going to suck is when the next tier of valor comes out, and they put it all on some new factions with new reputation grinds.
    I know, right? They said 5.1 will bring new dailies and factions. It's like they haven't been reading the massive amount of discontent on their own forums about these inane rep grinds.
    Quote Originally Posted by flick86 View Post
    It is not and never will be elitist to expect another player to know how to play his class and carry his own weight.
    #Blizzardplsdontdodis

  16. #376
    Life's a bitch and then you die. Not much different in WoW.

  17. #377
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shambulanced View Post
    . (I say Klaxxi dailies are useless because beyond revered there are really no great rewards. You should be able to pick up 463 weapons easier from dungeons than grinding to exalted.)

    Dude and the shitty part is you can get pretty far along with Klaxxi just by questing in the zones. It's by far the fastest one you can get a head start one. But I've already got a 463 weapon, i've got two so wtf? It's exalted though it makes no sense.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #378
    Dreadlord Shambulanced's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuminousAether View Post
    Not true. Klaxxi + Golden Lotus + Tillers dailies 7 days a week for me gets me valor capped without running a single dungeon.
    And that takes you a week of dailies. I can get valor capped in an afternoon of dungeoning. And while I run the dungeons, I'm rolling the dice on superior gear to the JP rep items.

    You'd be a fool not to do both dungeons and dailies. Which was my point-their "options" we're a complete line of bs.
    Last edited by Shambulanced; 2012-10-10 at 06:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by flick86 View Post
    It is not and never will be elitist to expect another player to know how to play his class and carry his own weight.
    #Blizzardplsdontdodis

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    What is really going to suck is when the next tier of valor comes out, and they put it all on some new factions with new reputation grinds.
    Don't see that happening. Given the changes we have already seen, I imagine that valor rewards will cease to be tied to reputations in a month or two. I believe these reputations are an experiment to see if players will tolerate a slower gear progression. Considering how easy it is to find dungeon groups now, how rapidly that whole process works, any other gear progression would progress at a typical pace and the content would be consumed at a rapid pace. There's a pretty consistent outcry against this method, however, and I'm fairly confident that Blizzard will acquiesce to the demands of their players. They usually do.

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuminousAether View Post
    Not true. Klaxxi + Golden Lotus + Tillers dailies 7 days a week for me gets me valor capped without running a single dungeon.
    Actually through ever method you gain dailies at a snails pace. Dungeons or dailies it doesn't matter. Dailies are probably the most efficient way but that just more reason people feel forced to do dailies. The VP gain from dunfgeons needs a buff so does the JP gain really.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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