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  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    No, they are all about rewarding effort instead of handing out gear on a silver platter. The fact that you even want to buy your gear shows that further...
    What effort? complete 10 quests every day? Are you nuts? Their so easy... it's almost no effort. I'm done them in like 30 minutes and I'm back to org afk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #422
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    It's impossible to really know how popular or unpopular dailies actually are by reading forums.

    Take this thread. We're up to something like 410+ posts in this thread and nearly 70 of them are from one person. And there was voluminous posting in other threads on the same topic by a very few people, many of them the same as in this one.

    It's not to call anyone out that I bring this up because I enjoy a good conversation or argument as much as anyone. But with that said, the same 100 people posting constantly about how much they hate dailies (or any other topic) is not the same thing as everyone hating dailies.

    As has been pointed out to the extent that it really doesn't need to be said again, dailies are optional but provide nice perks if you're persistent. No one is forced to do them and believing that you are is letting the game play you instead of vice versa.
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

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  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Your hard effort will always only keep you up to date, if you stop putting in effort, you will stop being rewarded, and left behind. It's a lot like when companies sell products, you can buy a new game at the release day when it's more expensive, or you can wait five years and buy it a lot cheaper. The reason people actually buy it at release day is because playing it when it's new is a reward of itself.
    Hard effort are you kidding me? Have you ever actually had ajob? Look their gonna nerf this shoot sooner rather than later hopefully and when they do people will bitch because their effort that they put into getting this stuff has been robbed. Their uniqueness because they could use the virtual sweat of their brow to do quests every day will be meaningless because every joe shmuck will have that same shit. It happened in ttbc with the heroic keys. It's been happening every expansion as far back as I can tell. Blzzard made this game progressively better and better for a broader segment of the population.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    No because some days Pizza is less tasty then the other options. Dailies are ever less tasty currently. I mean it's a bad analogy because if Pizza paid me out in the real work equivalent of rep (street cred?) I would probably always eat pizza.

    Actually yes it is. The general point was that WoW became a much more progressive game over time by introducing things like gear currencly, like being more friendly for solo play, like looking for dungeon and looking for raid. It was moving away steadily from the purist mmo games until some dude decided to make dungeons hard and regressed the game and well we all know how that worked out.

    Cataclysm was maybe a bit to rewarding but this system is to unrewarding. Dungeons suck balls in Mists and people are already leaving them and not doing them. I'm not sure why you think dailies take more effort then dungeons. I mean they really don't at all. Their probably easier and I can do them myself and not really on 4 other people. What they require is patience and dedication. Which is poor design.
    People aren't doing heroic dungeons? Alright that's why the queue is unchanged, if anything shorter. Not rewarding enough? Ok, so what other than getting you a full new set of gear making you fully prepared for raids do you want? I mean heroics give more than that ,but let's just focus on the gear for now. What exactly do you think heroics are? They are a stepping stone into raiding, NOTHING ELSE.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Noselacri View Post
    I feel like I'm facing a future of perpetual daily quest grinds. Yeah, you can opt not to do it, but everything is dependent on the damned things. It's bad enough getting to revered/exalted with a bunch of them when dailies are the only way to gain rep, it'll take weeks and weeks, but it seems I'll have to keep doing them forever if I want fortune charms.

    Who will ever want to be a raider without getting the most out of it? To most players, raiding without their weekly quota of charms is out of the question. It certainly would taint the incentive for me, knowing I'm missing out on probably several raid drops per month just because I'm not grinding freakin' dailies. I expect most guilds will require that their members keep topped up on charms -- why bring a member who isn't getting the most out of the raid if you could bring someone who gets the extra upgrades and thus improves progression? You wouldn't bring someone who doesn't enchant his gear.

    The problem is that these dailies are terrible. It's not only a grind, it's an exercise in frustration to try and do the same quest as fifty other players. It's a mob-tagging, ninja-clicking competition. I don't know how I'd be able to do that forever with no end in sight, every day, just so I don't miss out on gear upgrades from an entirely unrelated part of the game.

    I think we'll need alternative ways to get these charms. (bolded/underlined because nobody seemed to comprehend that part and selectively read that I want charms for free without doing anything) They should be obtainable with VP and/or CP. I don't feel like I should have to do 45 dailies a week every week for the rest of the time I play WoW. It's just as reasonable to expect people to do dungeons or PvP -- those activities are certainly no less related to the act of raiding, and I expect most players would be a little more enthusiastic about those things than dailies. Whatever the case, I feel like alternatives will be necessary. I certainly will not be doing 45 dailies every week - and more if I want to raid with alts as well - forever. The "for as long as I play WoW" part might just get cut very short if that's how it has to be.
    Remember what basically everybody complained about during Cata ?

    "I just fly laps in OG/SW until my queue pops.", "I never get to go out into the world.", "I just stare at the walls in OG/SW all day"., "There is no incentive to go out into the world."

    Blizzard's ways to get people out into the world are a) Exploration and b) Dailies (and because every kind of exploration can be cheesed/rushed with guides, only the latter will keep people out in the world for longer).

    The charms are the additional incentive neccessarily to make the dailies relevant at all (after you hit certain reputation benchmarks) and thus are essential to get to that goal, as was removing getting reputation from tabards.

    With better and better gear, it will be much, much faster to just do 5-mans + raids + LFR + the occasional scenario to hit your weekly valor cap.

    So Blizz had to add this exclusive incentive to dailies, otherwise their plan to get people out in the world will fail within a few weeks.

    And remember: You need 45 dailies PER WEEK to get your lucky charms, thats less than 7 (!) dailies a day.

    With any kind of DPS specc, you will get this done in 20 minutes a day, tops, rather 10-15 minutes, and this is with current blue gear with some purple dots - it will get faster and faster the more you get used to the dailies and the better gear you have.

    And really, 20 min. a day is too much for you ? Even though you can just do some more dailies and save the lesser charms for weeks when you don't have enough time ?
    Last edited by TequilaFlavor; 2012-10-10 at 07:48 AM.

  6. #426
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noselacri View Post
    The expansion has been out for two weeks. Assuming at least two days to get to 90 (which is optimistic), you've had at most 12 days to do daily quests. At 2 charms per quest and 6 coins (540 charms) plus 516 loose charms, you claim to have obtained roughly 525 daily quests worth of charms. That's over 40 daily quests per day. There's only a total of 48 daily quests in MoP, many of which require various reputation levels to unlock, so you didn't even have 40 daily quests available from the start. That's a best-case scenario. I don't need to express my skepticism any further.
    Your math is a bit off. You get 3 charms per turn-in, so that guy have turned in his quest only 2 times, resulting in far less charms spent. 6 coins are 180 lesser charms, not 540.
    I have turned-in elder charms 3 times and I have 3 stacks of 180 charms in my bank. Where does that put me? Oh, right, 3x90+x180=810 charms. I got level 90 on 25th. Two weeks passed. That's roughly 58 charms/day. Or ~30 quests. Does it still sound unrealistic to you?

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's impossible to really know how popular or unpopular dailies actually are by reading forums.

    Take this thread. We're up to something like 410+ posts in this thread and nearly 70 of them are from one person. And there was voluminous posting in other threads on the same topic by a very few people, many of them the same as in this one.

    It's not to call anyone out that I bring this up because I enjoy a good conversation or argument as much as anyone. But with that said, the same 100 people posting constantly about how much they hate dailies (or any other topic) is not the same thing as everyone hating dailies.

    As has been pointed out to the extent that it really doesn't need to be said again, dailies are optional but provide nice perks if you're persistent. No one is forced to do them and believing that you are is letting the game play you instead of vice versa.
    Except that, RIGHT NOW, if you don't want vp to be a completely wasted currency (ie, wasted effort) you must do dailies.

    Remove the rep req for valor items and I'd have no complaints in that regard. Other than I am disappointed by the general lack of ingenuinity and tedium of this latest round of daily quests.
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  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by bajskorv View Post
    You're one of those who want all the gear without putting time and effort into it, I see.
    I'd rather put in more effort doing something enjoyable instead of shitty dailies. Quests suck. Give me my tabards.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    People aren't doing heroic dungeons? Alright that's why the queue is unchanged, if anything shorter. Not rewarding enough? Ok, so what other than getting you a full new set of gear making you fully prepared for raids do you want? I mean heroics give more than that ,but let's just focus on the gear for now. What exactly do you think heroics are? They are a stepping stone into raiding, NOTHING ELSE.
    yea of course people have stopped. Theirs no value in them anymore since the rewards are so poor. In fact people not only just stop queing they stop running the entire dungeon. Hell they also ninja everything in sight. JP gear has never been a stepping stone to raiding, you don't even need it now to raid. Same for heroic gear I can raid in blues and greens and have been able to since Karazhan. JP gear was about rewarding people who've ran dungeons X amount of times but have gotten the shaft because RNG is bullshit. Now the argument is what X should be.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Hard effort are you kidding me? Have you ever actually had ajob? Look their gonna nerf this shoot sooner rather than later hopefully and when they do people will bitch because their effort that they put into getting this stuff has been robbed. Their uniqueness because they could use the virtual sweat of their brow to do quests every day will be meaningless because every joe shmuck will have that same shit. It happened in ttbc with the heroic keys. It's been happening every expansion as far back as I can tell. Blzzard made this game progressively better and better for a broader segment of the population.
    Yes I have had a job, and it wasn't nearly as hard as people whine it out to be. Different jobs have different difficulty though, I'm well aware, no need to remind me. Just saying "ever had a job?" doesn't make any sense because like everything else, there are different kinds of it, some are easy, some are hard.

    They are going to nerf it over time, like they always have, because that's what they do. When gear becomes less relevant to the current time-frame, and new gear is about to be released, they will nerf effort ti takes to get the outdated gear.

    And ok, you say it doesn't require any effort to get revered, to get all the VP for the VP gear? Then what the hell are you whining about? Go and get it!

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 09:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    yea of course people have stopped. Theirs no value in them anymore since the rewards are so poor. In fact people not only just stop queing they stop running the entire dungeon. Hell they also ninja everything in sight. JP gear has never been a stepping stone to raiding, you don't even need it now to raid. Same for heroic gear I can raid in blues and greens and have been able to since Karazhan. JP gear was about rewarding people who've ran dungeons X amount of times but have gotten the shaft because RNG is bullshit. Now the argument is what X should be.
    If HC gear isn't rewarding enough for you to get it then I don't even know what you want... Tell me, please enlighten me what the hell you expect from the stepping stone that heroics is. Raid gear? You get that in raids. You want another set of gear between HC's and raiding, and let JP give HC gear and HC give... what? Epic 470 gear?

  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by TequilaFlavor View Post
    Remember what basically everybody complained about during Cata ?

    "I just fly laps in OG/SW until my queue pops.", "I never get to go out into the world.", "I just stare at the walls in OG/SW all day"., "There is no incentive to go out into the world."


    And really, 20 min. a day is too much for you ? Even though you can just do some more dailies and save the lesser charms for weeks when you don't have enough time ?
    The funny part is you can say both in the same thread and not recognize the problem. Dailies will get you out of the world for 20 minutes a day. They won't keep you there and if your only spending two minutes then your just zerging the quest area and getting it done asap. For that part we had to have dungeon rewards nerfed to the ground.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegro View Post
    I'd rather put in more effort doing something enjoyable instead of shitty dailies. Quests suck. Give me my tabards.
    My sentiments. I wouldn't mind the dailies if they were fun and well designed. They're not, in my opinion. So I'd like the OPTION to use a tabard and kill two birds (dungeon gear and rep gains) with one stone.
    Quote Originally Posted by flick86 View Post
    It is not and never will be elitist to expect another player to know how to play his class and carry his own weight.
    #Blizzardplsdontdodis

  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Yes I have had a job, and it wasn't nearly as hard as people whine it out to be. Different jobs have different difficulty though, I'm well aware, no need to remind me. Just saying "ever had a job?" doesn't make any sense because like everything else, there are different kinds of it, some are easy, some are hard.

    They are going to nerf it over time, like they always have, because that's what they do. When gear becomes less relevant to the current time-frame, and new gear is about to be released, they will nerf effort ti takes to get the outdated gear.

    And ok, you say it doesn't require any effort to get revered, to get all the VP for the VP gear? Then what the hell are you whining about? Go and get it!

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 09:50 AM ----------


    If HC gear isn't rewarding enough for you to get it then I don't even know what you want... Tell me, please enlighten me what the hell you expect from the stepping stone that heroics is. Raid gear? You get that in raids. You want another set of gear between HC's and raiding, and let JP give HC gear and HC give... what? Epic 470 gear?
    I want JP gear equivelant to what I got in the dungeons. I want JP gear to combat rng by giving me a reward equal to what I got in the dungeon. Not giving me 458 shoulders so that I still have to go back and run the dungeon for the shoulders anyway. Or better gains on justice and vp inside the dungeon. Or rep tabards. ANYTHING to make the dungeon experience a tad bit more rewarding than it is now.

    Effort is different from tedium. Effort implies challenge. Tedium implies repetition. Currently effort in your case implies that I should stomach the tedium of dailies because well that's just the sweat of my virtual brow. The only thing MORE tedious than dailies is currently dungeons because they offer no challenge and still no rewards. Yes yes challenge modes I know I know. I'l get right on that skip. Doesn't fix heroics and doesn't fix character progression at all.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-10 at 07:54 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    The funny part is you can say both in the same thread and not recognize the problem. Dailies will get you out of the world for 20 minutes a day. They won't keep you there and if your only spending two minutes then your just zerging the quest area and getting it done asap. For that part we had to have dungeon rewards nerfed to the ground.
    They aren't nerfed to the ground, they are where they are supposed to be! >.<

    Man Cataclysm messed people up more than I thought... People like you seem so used to being spoon-fed gear for zero effort...

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 09:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    I want JP gear equivelant to what I got in the dungeons. I want JP gear to combat rng by giving me a reward equal to what I got in the dungeon. Not giving me 458 shoulders so that I still have to go back and run the dungeon for the shoulders anyway. Or better gains on justice and vp inside the dungeon. Or rep tabards. ANYTHING to make the dungeon experience a tad bit more rewarding than it is now.
    JP gear is 458, HC gear is 463. The difference is 5 item level, and you whine, really?...

  15. #435
    Dreadlord Shambulanced's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    They aren't nerfed to the ground, they are where they are supposed to be! >.<

    Man Cataclysm messed people up more than I thought... People like you seem so used to being spoon-fed gear for zero effort...

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 09:53 AM ----------


    JP gear is 458, HC gear is 463. The difference is 5 item level, and you whine, really?...
    It's the principle of it, in the ilvl debate.

    And I strongly disagree with your assertion that having gear be equivalent across the board (true options) is somehow being spoon-fed. And I've been here since vanilla, so no, Cata didn't "ruin" me. bC had it too, with emblems.

    Whether you run dungeons for thirty minutes or you've done dailies for thirty minutes, the same "effort" has been expended. It's what you find fun or not that matters. The extrinsic rewards for time invested should be the same,
    Quote Originally Posted by flick86 View Post
    It is not and never will be elitist to expect another player to know how to play his class and carry his own weight.
    #Blizzardplsdontdodis

  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    They aren't nerfed to the ground, they are where they are supposed to be! >.<

    Man Cataclysm messed people up more than I thought... People like you seem so used to being spoon-fed gear for zero effort...

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 09:53 AM ----------


    JP gear is 458, HC gear is 463. The difference is 5 item level, and you whine, really?...
    Right cataclysm messed people up. It was the same thing in Wrath to man. MoP is the outlier here. Hell it was the same system in IOQD. None of it was EVER tied to dailies or if it was the dailies were server wide and the event went on whether or not I participated in them. Even still think about how stupid that fucking argument is. Blizzard has been fostering and rewarding a play style that has made them MILLIONS. To turn around now and reverse the course of that decision and then say MAN CATA MESSED PEOPLE up is not only missing the point it's insane. Blizzard did this and is the only one responsible for it. YOU WERE ALL defending them as they did it so to turn around now and still defend them is a joke. I can't believe on THIS FORUM WHERE EVER PROGRESSIVE CHANGE THEY MADE WAS DEFENDED SO VOCIFEROUSLY I now have people defending the regressive changes they've made and I'm on the other side of the table. Madness.

    And yes unless it equivalent I will be back in dungeon fighting the RNG monster on and on and on.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-10 at 07:59 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    yea of course people have stopped. Theirs no value in them anymore since the rewards are so poor. In fact people not only just stop queing they stop running the entire dungeon. Hell they also ninja everything in sight. JP gear has never been a stepping stone to raiding, you don't even need it now to raid. Same for heroic gear I can raid in blues and greens and have been able to since Karazhan. JP gear was about rewarding people who've ran dungeons X amount of times but have gotten the shaft because RNG is bullshit. Now the argument is what X should be.
    Honestly, that JP argument will be considered null and void once the next raids come out. I mean the ones after Terrace and Heart of Fear. You KNOW the old VP gear will get turned into JP gear.

    Maybe the amount of JP you get from dungeons isn't that great, but other than that, I like the new style. You can run scenarios quickly to get the quest items from them. Use those to get into heroic dungeons, if you needed them to get in. The JP is used to fill in spots you can't fill with 463 gear. And, Blizzard will most likely make them used on profession mats later, too.

    I've seen people drop out of groups constantly in Cata heroics, too. There are always going to be people who get annoyed when their stuff doesn't drop and they ragequit. I had someone ragequit in a SCENARIO, for christ's sake. There's some nutty people out there.

    I like that it takes a bit longer to get geared up this time around, because I know it's going to change when the next set of raids comes out. Then it'll be purples right at 90 again.
    Once you go troll, you never reroll. -heard on cynicalbrit.com. Epic.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Noselacri View Post
    I feel like I'm facing a future of perpetual daily quest grinds. Yeah, you can opt not to do it, but everything is dependent on the damned things. It's bad enough getting to revered/exalted with a bunch of them when dailies are the only way to gain rep, it'll take weeks and weeks, but it seems I'll have to keep doing them forever if I want fortune charms.

    Who will ever want to be a raider without getting the most out of it? To most players, raiding without their weekly quota of charms is out of the question. It certainly would taint the incentive for me, knowing I'm missing out on probably several raid drops per month just because I'm not grinding freakin' dailies. I expect most guilds will require that their members keep topped up on charms -- why bring a member who isn't getting the most out of the raid if you could bring someone who gets the extra upgrades and thus improves progression? You wouldn't bring someone who doesn't enchant his gear.

    The problem is that these dailies are terrible. It's not only a grind, it's an exercise in frustration to try and do the same quest as fifty other players. It's a mob-tagging, ninja-clicking competition. I don't know how I'd be able to do that forever with no end in sight, every day, just so I don't miss out on gear upgrades from an entirely unrelated part of the game.

    I think we'll need alternative ways to get these charms. (bolded/underlined because nobody seemed to comprehend that part and selectively read that I want charms for free without doing anything) They should be obtainable with VP and/or CP. I don't feel like I should have to do 45 dailies a week every week for the rest of the time I play WoW. It's just as reasonable to expect people to do dungeons or PvP -- those activities are certainly no less related to the act of raiding, and I expect most players would be a little more enthusiastic about those things than dailies. Whatever the case, I feel like alternatives will be necessary. I certainly will not be doing 45 dailies every week - and more if I want to raid with alts as well - forever. The "for as long as I play WoW" part might just get cut very short if that's how it has to be.
    Welcome to Ogre dailies in TBC. That shit was hideous, YET, it made for interesting experiences. Made you play the game better, learn macros, get interested in new people, and cooperate a bit.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    The funny part is you can say both in the same thread and not recognize the problem. Dailies will get you out of the world for 20 minutes a day. They won't keep you there and if your only spending two minutes then your just zerging the quest area and getting it done asap. For that part we had to have dungeon rewards nerfed to the ground.
    Getting everybody (well, at last a good bunch of people) out in the world for 20 + minutes a day (some people will do more dailies for one reason or another) is still better than not getting them out in the world at all - at least in my book.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Shambulanced View Post
    It's the principle of it, in the ilvl debate.

    And I strongly disagree with your assertion that having gear be equivalent across the board (true options) is somehow being spoon-fed. And I've been here since vanilla, so no, Cata didn't "ruin" me. bC had it too, with emblems.

    Whether you run dungeons for thirty minutes or you've done dailies for thirty minutes, the same "effort" has been expended. It's what you find fun or not that matters. The extrinsic rewards for time invested should be the same,
    Heroics give you a chance for loot, JP gear is guaranteed, a reward for your efforts of at least trying. RNG should be slightly more rewarding than guaranteed rewards, because they are RNG, but all in all it's 5 item lvl difference and I see both gear as the same... Both will do fine for raiding in both normal and LFR mode.

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