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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shambulanced View Post
    It's the principle of it, in the ilvl debate.

    And I strongly disagree with your assertion that having gear be equivalent across the board (true options) is somehow being spoon-fed. And I've been here since vanilla, so no, Cata didn't "ruin" me. bC had it too, with emblems.

    Whether you run dungeons for thirty minutes or you've done dailies for thirty minutes, the same "effort" has been expended. It's what you find fun or not that matters. The extrinsic rewards for time invested should be the same,
    Indeed as have I and over the years I've watched the game morph and change into something far more accessible and progressive than it was. Hell even in mists they still did much of that like the talent system. The daily/rep/valor change however sticks out like a sore fucking thumb.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Right cataclysm messed people up. It was the same thing in Wrath to man. MoP is the outlier here. Hell it was the same system in IOQD. None of it was EVER tied to dailies or if it was the dailies were server wide and the event went on whether or not I participated in them.

    And yes unless it equivelant I will be back in dungeon fighting the RNG monster on and on and on. Please let's stay constructive here.
    458 is easily enough to enter raids, you don't need a full set of 463 even if it's damn well easy enough to get as it is already. I'm at 466 and I don't even feel that I worked all that much for that, but then again you think 10 min of dailies is like a job so what do I know right?

  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by TequilaFlavor View Post
    Getting everybody (well, at last a good bunch of people) out in the world for 20 + minutes a day (some people will do more dailies for one reason or another) is still better than not getting them out in the world at all - at least in my book.
    Sure but I doubt they kicked dungeons and all this progression in the balls for that. I mean it may as well be instanced because for the most part the behaviour is just go finish daily quests. It's not like their stopping to take time and enjoy the world or anything.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 08:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    458 is easily enough to enter raids, you don't need a full set of 463 even if it's damn well easy enough to get as it is already. I'm at 466 and I don't even feel that I worked all that much for that, but then again you think 10 min of dailies is like a job so what do I know right?
    Yea when you feel compelled to do it everyday because of the reward it grants. I'm not sure what you know but I'm sure you'll tell me. The simple fact is that every other change to mists is really progressive and really helpful to players and in many cases is all about choice. This one sticks out like a sore thumb though. Furthermore I don't raid. I do however still like to gear up my toon and not beat my head against the RNG wall over and over again. That's what torchlight 2 is for.

    You'll have to forgive me though it's 4am here and that means dailies have reset on arthas. time to punch in the clock. Morning sam. Morning ralph.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-10 at 08:06 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #444
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    The argument with "no reward without effort" is invalid as long as effort is only defined through questing which means dpsing. I'm a healer I love healing, healing is the only thing I like to do. After leveling to 90 I was just relieved, that I could cancel my DPS spec and switch back to resto, only to find out, I will have to dps again if I want to be competitive.

    I'm not saying doing dungeons forever was the optimal way, but at least it was a possibility to get what I needed by doing what I like most. That's everything I have to say to the akward "choice" argument.
    Last edited by Madhoof; 2012-10-10 at 08:07 AM.
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  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    Welcome to Ogre dailies in TBC. That shit was hideous, YET, it made for interesting experiences. Made you play the game better, learn macros, get interested in new people, and cooperate a bit.
    You are the first person I've ever heard suggest that TBC was great because of Ogre dailies. I barely touched them.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Madhoof View Post
    The argument with "no reward without effort" is invalid as long as effort is only defined through questing which means dpsing. I'm a healer I love healing, healing is the only thing I like to do. After leveling to 90 I was just relieved, that I could cancel my DPS spec and switch back to resto, only to find out, I will have to dps again if I want to be competitive.
    You don't have to, though. You can run dungeons. Heroics will give you lvl 463 gear, and you'll be fine to enter LFR or normal raids. You don't have to touch dailys, the VP gear is only there for those times you don't get stuff. And the coins are just a bonus roll, there's no guarantee you get stuff from that other than some gold.
    Once you go troll, you never reroll. -heard on cynicalbrit.com. Epic.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Yea when you feel compelled to do it everyday because of the reward it grants. I'm not sure what you know but I'm sure you'll me. The simple fact is that every other change to mists is really progressive and really helpful to players and in many cases is all about choice. This one sticks out like a sore thumb though. Furthermore I don't raid. I do however still like to gear up my toon and not beat my head against the RNG wall over and over again. That's what torchlight 2 is for.
    If the gear you need doesn't drop, there's JP gear which is basically just as good. The system you praise so badly to buy gear is still there, even though you like to act as if it didn't. The big reason it sticks out so much is because LOADS of people wanted a reason to be out in the world and do stuff, not just sit in Orgrimmar waiting for queues to pop.

  8. #448
    I already have a job. I don't want another job which is even more mindless and tedious, namely daillies. There's a million other things I'd rather do. Some people like them. Fine. What I object to is that these are partially or wholly a threshold to gearing to raid levels, and raiding is the bit I log on for. There's no way I'm going to spend the next x days (even if I could log on all those days) grinding from honored to revered for GL rep. It's a game, remember, and it's supposed to be fun. This isn't.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Madhoof View Post
    The argument with "no reward without effort" is invalid as long as effort is only defined through questing which means dpsing. I'm a healer I love healing, healing is the only thing I like to do. After leveling to 90 I was just relieved, that I could cancel my DPS spec and switch back to resto, only to find out, I will have to dps again if I want to be competitive.

    I'm not saying doing dungeons forever was the optimal way, but at least it was a possibility to get what I needed by doing what I like most. That's everything I have to say to the akward "choice" argument.
    So find a friend to do the daily quests with and heal him. Best overall solution to that would otherwise be to indroduce companions like in SW:TOR, having either a DPS, tank, or healer role depending on what you prefer.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 10:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by erian View Post
    I already have a job. I don't want another job which is even more mindless and tedious, namely daillies. There's a million other things I'd rather do. Some people like them. Fine. What I object to is that these are partially or wholly a threshold to gearing to raid levels, and raiding is the bit I log on for. There's no way I'm going to spend the next x days (even if I could log on all those days) grinding from honored to revered for GL rep. It's a game, remember, and it's supposed to be fun. This isn't.
    So ignore the dailies and raid in heroic dungeon gear.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by erian View Post
    I already have a job. I don't want another job which is even more mindless and tedious, namely daillies. There's a million other things I'd rather do. Some people like them. Fine. What I object to is that these are partially or wholly a threshold to gearing to raid levels, and raiding is the bit I log on for. There's no way I'm going to spend the next x days (even if I could log on all those days) grinding from honored to revered for GL rep. It's a game, remember, and it's supposed to be fun. This isn't.
    Again, you don't HAVE to do this. Dailys are not a threshold for raiding, and saying so is just silly. Do dungeons. You'll get better stuff, and then you'll get into LFR and raiding.

    Honestly, people do tend to treat this just a little oddly. Folks, I support taking the VP stuff out of rep, but to say that you CAN'T do any raiding without that VP gear is just plain folly.
    Once you go troll, you never reroll. -heard on cynicalbrit.com. Epic.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Heroics give you a chance for loot, JP gear is guaranteed, a reward for your efforts of at least trying. RNG should be slightly more rewarding than guaranteed rewards, because they are RNG, but all in all it's 5 item lvl difference and I see both gear as the same... Both will do fine for raiding in both normal and LFR mode.

    Actually no you won't be getting in to heart of fear with any justice gear. It isn't a stepping stone it serves no real purpose except to get you into mogushan vaults a little faster(and guess what honor gear does that equally well but also has free PvP stats), but make no mistake about it you will need every piece of LFR and heroic gear in remaining slots to get into heart of fear.

    Soloable dailies give valor, rep, and charms. Yet group content gives you a tiny bit of valor and justice. If they are not going to give rep and charms then they need to jack up the valor and justice you get for doing them and make the justice gear actually work something to make them a comparable activity to dailies.

  12. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    If the gear you need doesn't drop, there's JP gear which is basically just as good. The system you praise so badly to buy gear is still there, even though you like to act as if it didn't. The big reason it sticks out so much is because LOADS of people wanted a reason to be out in the world and do stuff, not just sit in Orgrimmar waiting for queues to pop.
    Except that it's not just as good and again I'm compelled to continue doing the dungeon until I get it. The system to buy the gear is piss weak by comparison and for no good reason. It sticks out like a sore thumb because it a wholly regressive change. All of it is. Even the stupid change to daily dungeons where you now have to go back to doing 1 a day. It has nothing to do with people being out in the world although that may be why they have designed the system. I mean that's an extremely poor and uncreative way to go about it. dailies are piss poor at everything they do. They were never designed to have this much reward tied to them and they only do now because it's a prod to get people out into the world. Well that's shitty. It ruins my dungeon experience and it doesn't really accomplish what blizzard was after. People finish their dailies, ignore the world for the quest they need to do (they may as well be instanced at that point) and then had back to org.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 08:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Actually no you won't be getting in to heart of fear with any justice gear. It isn't a stepping stone it serves no real purpose except to get you into mogushan vaults a little faster(and guess what honor gear does that equally well but also has free PvP stats), but make no mistake about it you will need every piece of LFR and heroic gear in remaining slots to get into heart of fear.

    Soloable dailies give valor, rep, and charms. Yet group content gives you a tiny bit of valor and justice. If they are not going to give rep and charms then they need to jack up the valor and justice you get for doing them and make the justice gear actually work something to make them a comparable activity to dailies.
    Christ even hitting lfr level is a bitch now. JP gains are so fucking little in these dungeons. If you get lucky with a bunch of drops in the dungeons well congratulations. This is a complete 180 reversal on most decisions they've made in the history of warcraft and isn't in spirit with the "choice" that mists was supposed to offer us. People defending them... I don't know.. I just don't know..
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-10 at 08:14 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Actually no you won't be getting in to heart of fear with any justice gear. It isn't a stepping stone it serves no real purpose except to get you into mogushan vaults a little faster(and guess what honor gear does that equally well but also has free PvP stats), but make no mistake about it you will need every piece of LFR and heroic gear in remaining slots to get into heart of fear.

    Soloable dailies give valor, rep, and charms. Yet group content gives you a tiny bit of valor and justice. If they are not going to give rep and charms then they need to jack up the valor and justice you get for doing them and make the justice gear actually work something to make them a comparable activity to dailies.
    You enter heart of fear with raiding gear from vaults. >.<

    I never said JP gear would last you through all the raids, I said it would be enough to make you ready for raids, aka LFR and Mogu'shan vaults, which will then progress you further from there.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Actually no you won't be getting in to heart of fear with any justice gear. It isn't a stepping stone it serves no real purpose except to get you into mogushan vaults a little faster(and guess what honor gear does that equally well but also has free PvP stats), but make no mistake about it you will need every piece of LFR and heroic gear in remaining slots to get into heart of fear.

    Soloable dailies give valor, rep, and charms. Yet group content gives you a tiny bit of valor and justice. If they are not going to give rep and charms then they need to jack up the valor and justice you get for doing them and make the justice gear actually work something to make them a comparable activity to dailies.
    Well yeah, HoF and Terrace have higher ilvl requirements than MV. You're meant to go into MV before you go into the other two. And if I remember, due to questing purposes, one of those HAS to come before the other. It's about progression. Heroics > LFR or raiding > harder raids.
    Once you go troll, you never reroll. -heard on cynicalbrit.com. Epic.

  15. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    You enter heart of fear with raiding gear from vaults. >.<

    I never said JP gear would last you through all the raids, I said it would be enough to make you ready for raids, aka LFR and Mogu'shan vaults, which will then progress you further from there.
    Essentially back to tiered raiding. Boy I hope those guilds who get burnt out raiders don't mind going back to farm old content to gear their replacements back up. They can always farm their sub par JP gear I guess. The non raiders well they can go fuck themselves.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #456
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    I much preferred grinding dungeons for rep.

    It gave me something to do with my guildies and we all kind of geared up together. Now its ninja-tagging-of-awesomeness every man for himself.
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  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Except that it's not just as good and again I'm compelled to continue doing the dungeon until I get it. The system to buy the gear is piss weak by comparison and for no good reason. It sticks out like a sore thumb because it a wholly regressive change. All of it is. Even the stupid change to daily dungeons where you now have to go back to doing 1 a day. It has nothing to do with people being out in the world although that may be why they have designed the system. I mean that's an extremely poor and uncreative way to go about it. dailies are piss poor at everything they do. They were never designed to have this much reward tied to them and they only do now because it's a prod to get people out into the world. Well that's shitty. It ruins my dungeon experience and it doesn't really accomplish what blizzard was after. People finish their dailies, ignore the world for the quest they need to do (they may as well be instanced at that point) and then had back to org.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 08:13 AM ----------



    Christ even hitting lfr level is a bitch now. JP gains are so fucking little in these dungeons. If you get lucky with a bunch of drops in the dungeons well congratulations. This is a complete 180 reversal on most decisions they've made in the history of warcraft and isn't in spirit with the "choice" that mists was supposed to offer us. People defending them... I don't know.. I just don't know..
    If you feel that you must replace anything bellow 463, even though you have no intention of raiding later on, go for it... You have all the time in the world to get those items to drop since you don't need it for anything anyway.

    "If you get lucky with a bunch of drops in the dungeons well congratulations. "
    It's really not that lucky, since my entire guild got it with ease. Just keep on running the heroics you love so much.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Essentially back to tiered raiding. Boy I hope those guilds who get burnt out raiders don't mind going back to farm old content to gear their replacements back up.
    No, Atra, come on now, be fair. It's not like tiered raiding, it's like doing Firelands and using the Firelands gear to do Dragon Soul. Raid progression has been a staple of WoW for ages now. A raid comes out, then there's another raid that needs better gear, so you use the gear from the last raid.

    edit: Besides, as I said earlier, we know that Blizzard will eventually make the old VP gear available for JP, to make it easier to get into the next tier of raiding.
    Once you go troll, you never reroll. -heard on cynicalbrit.com. Epic.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Essentially back to tiered raiding. Boy I hope those guilds who get burnt out raiders don't mind going back to farm old content to gear their replacements back up. They can always farm their sub par JP gear I guess. The non raiders well they can go fuck themselves.
    Because the alternative of farming the same raid for months because people geared up so quickly that Blizzard couldn't keep up with the development of content is a much better system right? And don't come with "well they need to make more content faster!" It's not that simple nor something you want to rush if you want it of good quality!

  20. #460
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    If you feel that you must replace anything bellow 463, even though you have no intention of raiding later on, go for it... You have all the time in the world to get those items to drop since you don't need it for anything anyway.

    "If you get lucky with a bunch of drops in the dungeons well congratulations. "
    It's really not that lucky, since my entire guild got it with ease. Just keep on running the heroics you love so much.
    It's really that lucky. that's why it's called RNG. It's totally fucking random and you get it by luck. Especially with their shitty fucking loot tables. I'm running em alright. And being a good little boy and doing my dailies. All because a handful of people couldn't swallow the fucking fact that people who didn't raid somehow still had gear. ABSURD... HOW DARE THEY HAVE GEAR?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 08:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Because the alternative of farming the same raid for months because people geared up so quickly that Blizzard couldn't keep up with the development of content is a much better system right? And don't come with "well they need to make more content faster!" It's not that simple nor something you want to rush if you want it of good quality!
    Yes that system was better. Back stopping content this much isn't that different from 9 months without content. You have something to do but everything is a fucking wall. Trion and other companies manage to release patches at a record rate compared to Blizzard. Their is no good reason they can't. Other than well they're stretched to thin. SOME gating is necessary sure. This much not so much. I mean if they gave me ONE of the thigns I wanted for dungeons it wouldn't kill content that much. If they made 463 jp gear it wouldn't matter one bit for gating purposes. If they did every change I wanted yea then maybe it would be to much and to rewarding. Apparently that's a problem and Blizzard can't keep up with my fun. I mean that right their is insane. IF any other company couldn't feed it's customers demand it would go bankrupt. If Mcdondalds tmmrw said no more hamburgers you hungry masses or you only get half a hamburger each it would be madness. Granted creating this digital world is more complicated but are we honestly saying Blizzard can't do any better? Are we honestly saying they are totally helpless?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 08:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWerebison View Post
    No, Atra, come on now, be fair. It's not like tiered raiding, it's like doing Firelands and using the Firelands gear to do Dragon Soul. Raid progression has been a staple of WoW for ages now. A raid comes out, then there's another raid that needs better gear, so you use the gear from the last raid.

    edit: Besides, as I said earlier, we know that Blizzard will eventually make the old VP gear available for JP, to make it easier to get into the next tier of raiding.
    It kinda feels like vanilla in that sense dude. I'm sorry. I guess if I don't raid I'm not supposed to get gear anymore. That was gay in vanilla and it's bad now.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-10 at 08:25 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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