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  1. #141
    Brewmaster catbeef's Avatar
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    aren't the charms a BONUS loot roll?

    put more time/effort into the game and receive a bonus.. don't and don't.. sounds fair to me.
    cow goes moo

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    You obviously fail to see what I am talking about, Dailies are fine, I find they can be quite good when I am in a hurry.

    But when I sit down to play this game, I want to do something other than grind the same easy and boring heroics day in and day out after I have done all my dailies in 20 mins.

    Sometimes, I just want to go into the world and grind a few mobs, but the only use that us for is for motes of harmony, and that is next to no progression for myself at all, merely money gaining.

    I want something to break up the Do Dailies - heroic grind - pvp -craft for ten seconds to sell on the AH. Grinding mobs can help that so much, just putting on some music and sitting there AoEing mobs for half an hour.

    It breaks the boring monotamy of the terrible heroics and Dailies.
    How exactly is grinding heroics any different from grinding regular mobs? You're pulling everything to aoe it down anyways, and the people you play with are like bots since nobody says anything. The only thing you're missing is music I suppose.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Right, so let me get this straight. You want to PAY for a game that you need to grind for months, doing the same boring dulled down and easy content day in and day out, because you have a slim chance of dropping something thats already outdated?

    Jesus christ you're a moron. Even Vanilla Let you grind your way through reputations to get decent level gear.
    Really? What rep gear could you ever purchase in vanilla that was even remotely comparable to raid gear? The only reps in vanilla that actually sold gear were usually directly tied to raids (like craftable fire protection / nature protection from Dark Iron / Cenarian reps) which usually got far out-stripped by the equivilent tier raid stuff pretty fast.

    Purchaseable gear from rep vendors and with VP / JP didnt even really make it big till BC reputation gear and the Sunwell Isle vendors, and even then, the Exalted Rep gear from most BC factions was usually equivilent to or sub par to the BC Heroic Dungeon gear, let alone the Raid gear.

  4. #144
    Banned The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Haha, you do realize that grinding the game in hope for gear is exactly what raiding is right? You pretty much called every single raider, a moron, yourself included. Good job.

    Oh and also, are you saying you would rather pay for a game that plays itself, than do any of the work yourself? That... sounds like a really terrible system...
    Haha, nice strawman again, if only you had a brain.

    You see, grinding implies easy repetitive actions, killing mobs in AoE, doing the same heroic every 30 mins, doing the same dailies again and again. Thats VERY VERY repetitive. Raiding an actual raid? You do it once, maybe twice a week at the most, so it feels less dull and repetitive. Character progression is often more fluid in raids too, Unlike heroics, where I run 5 heroics just to get maybe one bit of gear, but maybe I loose the roll, so back to running 5 more to get that heroic back in rotation.

    In the end, I can end up seeing the same heroic 4 or 5 times a day if I am pushing hard, you don't see the same bosses in raids 4 or 5 times a day.

  5. #145
    you can do the normal raids with heroic 5man gear, you can get starter epics from professions and AH for cheap - the cloth gloves are now 4k on my server and they will be even cheaper when LFR comes out - you only really need to do the dailies to get access to some valor gear - and this would only be beneficial to someone who has either had bad luck in drops or isnt raiding and needed gear -

  6. #146
    Pit Lord MrHappy's Avatar
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    well you can either a) do dailies to get cool tabards/mounts/gear/other stuff while exploring cool art and finding hidden dailies for rep/tokens that will give you more loot when you do raid bosses or b) you can sit in org/shring of two moons and troll trade chat.

    If anything the rep grind that's long and not a face roll and pose a challenge is actually what people wanted. People wanted stuff to be rewarding and meaning full..there you go...go work for something and not QQ when you were used to stuff being spoon fed to you.
    www.cherishyourit.ca MCTS - Win 7, MCTS - AD, A+, Security+

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Haha, nice strawman again, if only you had a brain.

    You see, grinding implies easy repetitive actions, killing mobs in AoE, doing the same heroic every 30 mins, doing the same dailies again and again. Thats VERY VERY repetitive. Raiding an actual raid? You do it once, maybe twice a week at the most, so it feels less dull and repetitive. Character progression is often more fluid in raids too, Unlike heroics, where I run 5 heroics just to get maybe one bit of gear, but maybe I loose the roll, so back to running 5 more to get that heroic back in rotation.

    In the end, I can end up seeing the same heroic 4 or 5 times a day if I am pushing hard, you don't see the same bosses in raids 4 or 5 times a day.
    Nice ad hominem. I guess that's a more acceptable fallacy huh?
    This is absolutely the attitude and language that, in this community, needs to go sit in the corner for a while. If you can't stand the thought of there being multiple difficulty tiers of content -- into which we pour a lot of our development efforts -- to make raiding feasible for more than 2% of players, hit Heroic mode, turn on vent, and repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Really? What rep gear could you ever purchase in vanilla that was even remotely comparable to raid gear? The only reps in vanilla that actually sold gear were usually directly tied to raids (like craftable fire protection / nature protection from Dark Iron / Cenarian reps) which usually got far out-stripped by the equivilent tier raid stuff pretty fast.

    Purchaseable gear from rep vendors and with VP / JP didnt even really make it big till BC reputation gear and the Sunwell Isle vendors, and even then, the Exalted Rep gear from most BC factions was usually equivilent to or sub par to the BC Heroic Dungeon gear, let alone the Raid gear.
    Back when I started UBRS, Stratholme and Scholomance were the raids buddy, so in a way, all reps were tied to raids. Doesn't mean I couldn't grind them differently. What I am getting at is I don't really give a shit about the rewards, I want another way to get those reps up without the fucking terrible set of dailies.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    I'm fine with this design. Feels like good old vanilla. Grinding and stuff.
    Exalted feels something that you work for, not just get casually for running dungeons.
    I liked BC model where you had to run certain dungeons for certain reputations, but I feel like questing is the way to go. So I'm happy and hope this kind of gameplay stays.
    Actually most vanilla rep farms existed purely out of repeatable quests or mob grinding or there respectively dungeons/raids and not dailies not matter how people defend it but dailies is nothing more then content gating. I agree about the tabard tho that was to much but they could have at least included faction specific rep for dungeons at least. For example giving a small amount of shadow pan rep in shado pan monastery (make it heroic only or 250-500 rep a run or something on normal) nothing excessive but at least an alternative people can have a choice.

    Only klaxxi and the cloud serpents have an actual grind possibility atm seeing they do have access to a repeatable quest the rest does not. And the serpent one was actually one of the reps I found the most enjoyable because I could influence my own pace. I either had the choice to strictly do dailies one day or camp eggs when I was bored for some extra rep. Same with the tiller (buddy part) reps you can either do only the dailies or farm the soils to speed it up.
    Golden lotus is a little in between it majorly gated by dailies only if your extreme lucky (getting a key and getting even luckier having a box up) is a way to get a tiny amount of extra rep.

    Personally I would have been a happy camper if every faction had at least a decent repeatable quest this would have given a lot of people like myself at least the choice of doing the rep farm in our own pace instead of being rep blocked on a daily base.
    Or If blizz is actually so concerned about us blowing to reps and content to fast at least base the rep gain on a weekly cap (exclusion of any rep items you may find) and not a daily cap. It should not be that hard to implement a internal counter that checks how often you started the golden lotus chain or whatever faction quest you want to do within a weekly reset.

    That would give at least people that work or have a tight raiding calender way more flexibility then its now because then you be able to decide to leave the farm for the weekends or on your offdays.
    Last edited by Malackai; 2012-10-09 at 02:23 PM.

  10. #150
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Doesn't mean you have to remove every single aspect of RNG, it still serves as an important role to keep players busy. Otherwise raids would take X amount of runs and either feel like a really long boring grind where you can see the end of the road, but it's just so far away that it's not worth it, or it would be so short that you would grow tired of it within a month.

    Also there is still both JP gear for those who don't get HC drops, and VP to upgrade your raiding gear.
    That's not what I want out of warcraft though. If i was concerned that much about a loot finding game I'd go play torchlight 2. I do want the same (more or less) steady well paced dungeon gearing and character progression experience I've had for the past 4-5 years. Instead I got something that regresses the game for 10 minutes of you being the world.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #151
    Banned The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jn2002dk View Post
    Nice ad hominem. I guess that's a more acceptable fallacy huh?
    Do you even know what Ad hominem is? I didn't attack them personally I merely made a comment on how every line that person says is a strawman against others.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Haha, nice strawman again, if only you had a brain.

    You see, grinding implies easy repetitive actions, killing mobs in AoE, doing the same heroic every 30 mins, doing the same dailies again and again. Thats VERY VERY repetitive. Raiding an actual raid? You do it once, maybe twice a week at the most, so it feels less dull and repetitive. Character progression is often more fluid in raids too, Unlike heroics, where I run 5 heroics just to get maybe one bit of gear, but maybe I loose the roll, so back to running 5 more to get that heroic back in rotation.

    In the end, I can end up seeing the same heroic 4 or 5 times a day if I am pushing hard, you don't see the same bosses in raids 4 or 5 times a day.
    Yes you're completely right. Raids are not even in the slightest repetitive and every time I engage a boss it's like this complete new feeling, like I have never been there before! Especially not during ToC with 4 runs per week, normal/hc 10 man and normal/hc 25 man, I'm sure they must have had a real fresh feeling every time they stepped in there.

    Oh and it's not like a lot of people raid 3 times a week with raid finder on top of that, oh no.

    You really don't think people found Dragon Soul to be a grind after farming it for months? Man you must be living under a rock or something...

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Do you even know what Ad hominem is? I didn't attack them personally I merely made a comment on how every line that person says is a strawman against others.
    You dismissed his point with an insult, that's pretty much how it works skippy

    Shame the irony is lost on you but i got a good laugh from it so thank you
    This is absolutely the attitude and language that, in this community, needs to go sit in the corner for a while. If you can't stand the thought of there being multiple difficulty tiers of content -- into which we pour a lot of our development efforts -- to make raiding feasible for more than 2% of players, hit Heroic mode, turn on vent, and repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care

  14. #154
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Or think of the alternative, what if I need a cloak, and it ONLY Drops off the last boss. Only. I now have to trudge through an entire dungeon.. and then it doesn't drop. And the hilarious way heroics work is, I can't single that heroic out anymore.[COLOR="red"]
    Oh I agree it sucks bro. The loots tables could stand to be bigger. It's just bad design all around and I'm not sure by what measure they think it's rewarding enough. I'm not to worried about it though. At some point not only will people just continually leave dungeons they will simply just stop running them and ques will take forever.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Apellosine View Post
    So you have to do 45 dailies to get your week's quota? That's what 2 days worth of Golden Lotus + Klaxxi, maybe 90 mins total time spent per week? If you want the extra perks then put in the time for them. Don't expect everything to be handed on a silver platter.
    This is an amazing way to sum it up. Even if it was 120 mins per week. Thats not alot of time at all and if you have to complain about it I can only wonder how lazy you are in RL.

    Inb4 ZOMG I WORK 1235129835023975 HOURS A WEEK !!!!!

  16. #156
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post

    You really don't think people found Dragon Soul to be a grind after farming it for months? Man you must be living under a rock or something...
    Then they better not take 9 months to release a new raid. I'm sure even you think they can do a better job than that. That's ultimately what the crux of all of this is. Gating content so you can't have to much fun with it in any given day. It's almost as bad as if they just turned the game off after you played a couple of hours.

    Look I liked MoP right up until I hit 90. I hate thinking this is all some elaborate gating scheme to stretch the life out of content. But the rest of the stories just don't fly or have huge holes in them.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by FattyXP View Post
    But that isn't what it is, What about people like me that can't log in to do dailies every single day? I still want to raid my 2-3 days a week, but now I won't have enough 'extra rolls' to keep my gear competitive. If they added a system such as buying them for JP then it would give people that can't play every single day a chance to earn these items during the times when we can put a few hours into the game.

    It isn't fair that just because you can be on every single day, you get more loot from the same bosses.
    Your guild and you still gear up faster than without elder charms. Your guildmates will recieve more loot and thus you will recieve more loot because they can pass on loot. You are still holding back your guilds progress though. But if I understood it correctly you can use on elder charm a week? So 45 dailies in one week isn't that terrible. And so what if you don't make 45 dailies then you can just spread it out over two weeks or you can stack them when you have time off. They will also become less and less valuable in time when you start farming raids and at some point you will have downtime inbetween raids.

    Sometimes you just have to let some things go. If you don't have time then you don't have time.

    It is actually really fair that someone who spends more time in the game gets rewarded more.

  18. #158
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    It is actually really fair that someone who spends more time in the game gets rewarded more.
    Then expect wow to shrink and lose players once again. If your telling those people without time to just expect less because the game is no longer friendly to them I hope everyone of them leaves.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #159
    Pandaren Monk Tikaru's Avatar
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    Dailies are fine, I don't know what everyone is crying about.

    You can only turn in 90 charms a week anyways, right now I'm sitting on over 200 charms even AFTER turning in 90 this morning...

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post
    I have run hc's several times, really. I am at ilvl 455 now. it takes a while to get geared because it is based on luck, not skill nor effort but luck. The items have to drop and then you will have to win a roll.

    At this point I only can buy jp gear from Klaxxi and hands I already have from hc, so useless. other reps I don't have enough of yet to spend jp. So I am jp capped now, not being able to spend nor earn more. I can buy vp from Klaxxi but for that I don't have enough vp yet. Works out great, doesn't it?

    I need ilvl 360 (when lowered) to start lfr (it was 363), so I need every slot filled with a hc peace.
    I think it will take me some time.
    And in the highly touted "best expansion" of Burning Crusade, you geared almost entirely by luck. Justice Badges were 1 per heroic and it was what, 35 or more per item? You could only do 16 heroics a day at most, but they took longer than current ones. Hell, the best guilds in the world didn't tackle T5 until months after release.

    That was after you ran dungeons you no longer needed 1-2 dozen times for rep to buy a key to enter a heroic. You might not have access to all the heroics so that reduces your badges per day too.

    When did players shift to "we should be clearing raids within 4 weeks or sooner" mentality? That's not necessarily what I get from your post, but it's the impression I get from a lot of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Then they better not take 9 months to release a new raid. I'm sure even you think they can do a better job than that. That's ultimately what the crux of all of this is. Gating content so you can't have to much fun with it in any given day. It's almost as bad as if they just turned the game off after you played a couple of hours.

    Look I liked MoP right up until I hit 90. I hate thinking this is all some elaborate gating scheme to stretch the life out of content. But the rest of the stories just don't fly or have huge holes in them.
    I'll agree Dragon Soul was too long and we should be expecting more than 2 patches per expansion (Cata had 2...one was divided). However, gating content has been in place throughout WoW's life, particularly from TBC onward, in one form or another.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2012-10-09 at 02:31 PM.
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