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  1. #21
    Err, right, I agree. I'm saying that without any math, "doing it wrong" isn't so obvious. I'm saying that the difference between wrong or right isn't a great deal. Put differently, I'm betting Sim-C will give us this answer without having to walk the first 6 seconds of combat manually. I don't consider it at all clear that starting with rupture's one extra pulse of energy is going to matter, especially when my method is more likely to save a combo point for a damaging finisher instead of a slice that will be refreshed for free (aka wasted). However, I'm not saying I'm right. I just figure we'll get that answer for free pretty soon like.

    Another possibility is mutilate to five then rupture, then slice at your opportunity. If rupture was good enough (instead of venomous wounds being the star player), then we'd give that a lot more consideration.

  2. #22
    A VM proc will save a global or more of waiting for energy. SnD does nothing for setting up your rotation. Additionally, going Rupture > SnD > Env leaves less room for your SnD to fall off before an Env and in most cases allows you to use a 5CP Env rather than a low CP one. Rupture is the way to go.

    Also, Rupture itself does not do very much damage. VW is the meat of Rupture. That's why everyone says just refresh it with what you have; no need to wait for 5CP. 5CP Rupture to start is going to make your opening very, very slow. The optimal opener I posted before is just a few globals and everything is rolling. Depending on VW and SF RNG, there will be almost no waiting time either.

  3. #23
    I'm aware rupture does little damage, as revealed in the post directly above yours!

    A VW proc is not a guarantee, so as I said, we'd have to look at the average case. Because I blow cooldowns at the start that create quite a lot of extra combo points, I never have an issue with a <5 CP envenom.

    I will point out- this is a MINOR tweak. My point was simply that, without MATH, it's not obvious. You are handwaving away lost autoattacks and deadly proc as if they aren't damage, opting instead for the rotation that "feels" better. Certainly you can see how you could be misled as to which was optimal- and certainly you can see how that difference is so small regardless that unless you are willing to do the math, just do whichever until Sim-C comes along!

    I'm not saying you are wrong, mind you. Your argument is pretty compelling.

  4. #24

    How to really deal dmg , u need to have an eye for everything !!!

    U wanna deal dmg ? i tell u how ! First of all heres my baby // new to this forum so u have to look her up , Name is Isley Rogue BloodElf from Destromath /// with this gear at feng e.g 65k dps Burst of nearly 100k dps.
    Start of with stealth ofc -> shadowstep -> Mutilate -> immediately slice and dice up -> mutilate --- wait before u instantly click the second mutilate and watch if blind side procs because every free dispatch boosts your dps and saves up energy :P. lets say in the worst situation it is 2 times mutilate = 4 energy and use rupture , get it up as fast as u can because u have a chance generating energy with " venemous wounds " --- if u are crit lucky it goes this way Mutilate crit 3 points / dispatch proc crit 2 points = 5 combopoints -> Rupture -- u know where im getting at ? After this , lets call it opening phase , immediately USE Vendetta -> Shadow Blades -> Vanish in that order and instantly mutilate him( free 3 combopoints thx to stealth ( vanish ) and shadow blades , if ur lucky and it crits u get 4 combopoints with 1 mutilate ). in the Shadow Blades " phase " get as many mutilates through as u can it is best if u have an addon like " needtoknow ( a must have addon ) " where u can display ur anticipation buff and how many stacks it has. so use envenom when u got like 5 combo points and 4 anticipation points or sth. because if u use envenom directly after getting 5 combopoints u could waste energy and so waste more shadow blade mutilates which cost u combopoints. After this deal its all the same mutilate to get 5+ combopoints and envenom ----- ONE BIG IMPORTANT POINT !!!! Like i said get the " needtoknow " addon because it is a good help to show u the buff u get after using envenom , if u can use envenom with 5 combopoints but still got the buff from envenom to apply poison faster then dont use envenom but instead wait for the buff to fade and then use it, because if u use it while having the buff u just overwrite it and loose precious DPS. And NEVER EVER let Rupture go away from the boss u have to keep it on the boss so u have to time when to use envenom and when to use rupture which variates in the raid encounters.
    I hope u could understand everything Í said sry im german ... so i didnt know how to exactly write it good luck to u mate
    Last edited by Isley26; 2012-10-09 at 11:07 PM.

  5. #25
    Do they speak carriage return in Germany?

    Also note that calling the rest of the thread "bullshit" and then echoing a bunch of stuff with no spacing, rationale, or math, is unfortunate.

  6. #26
    yea k sry for the " bullshit " but the guy doesnt want math he wants to deal dmg , i dont care about the math and im always dps no.1 :P

  7. #27
    Just a few helpful hints as well, moving away from rotation. You're a Rogue, you can stealth, stop being lazy and shadowstepping everywhere.

    Nothing costs energy when in stealth, so it helps to use tricks of the trade on the tank while still in stealth, you can practically walk up to the enemy next to the tank and hence why shadowstep isn't necessary, at least in a raid scenario, I'll explain why.

    As said, energy costs nothing in stealth. Use vanish to your advantage in this situation, when you need to get a mutilate off with low energy it could be the difference between a 2 point and a 5 point Rupture, everything counts.
    Now by taking Preparation as a talent choice instead of Shadowstep, you can now use Vanish, get a free Mutilate and then do it again using Prep. Extra DPS, at a cost of 0 energy.

    Second handy hint, if an enemy is about to die and there are other enemies around that need to be killed, I.e. Boss fights with adds, etc. If your Rupture is running low, just pour all your CPs into the largest Rupture you can, it gains the vast majority of your energy back when the enemy dies, and you can move to the next enemy with a fully loaded gun. Try to use you better judgement here though, if you're about half way through your energy or your SnD is about to fall, then use those CPs in an Env. It's completely situational.

    However to join the 'opening' argument, I find personal preference in going with Stealth > Mut (For CP gen, potential proc and poison app) > SnD (For increased chances of application of poison through quicker melee attacks) > Mut > Rupture (Because I don't need energy regen at the very beginning of a fight, much potential for wasted capped energy if used first)

  8. #28
    This is how I open on things.

    Garote
    SnD (No need to waste more than 1CP, since Envenom will refresh it to it's full 5CP duration.)
    Mutilate 2x
    Envenom.

    From that point on just stick a Rupture up your target when your Garote is about to drop off. Keep Rupture up, Envenom will keep SnD up, and use Dispatch procs right away. The moment your target goes below 35% health swap Mutilate for Dispatch in your rotation.

    As for cooldowns, use them wisely and try to line them up with other buffs/cooldowns that will make the cooldown much more effective.

    Also, you can use Vanish to get Garote up again so you can spend those 5 combo points for Rupture on an Envenom. I usually do this while under the effect of Vendetta and Shadow Blades.

    EDIT: I don't see how people think it is important to list Shadow Step. when opening up you can walk up to the boss before the fight starts so Shadow Step isn't a DPS increase and not important wether you use it or not. If you are in a fight with multiple targets you can use it to move from the first to the second for a DPS increase. For opening, however, it really doesn't matter.
    Last edited by Ziktus; 2012-10-10 at 04:51 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Overheard View Post
    Just a few helpful hints as well, moving away from rotation. You're a Rogue, you can stealth, stop being lazy and shadowstepping everywhere.

    Nothing costs energy when in stealth, so it helps to use tricks of the trade on the tank while still in stealth, you can practically walk up to the enemy next to the tank and hence why shadowstep isn't necessary, at least in a raid scenario, I'll explain why.

    As said, energy costs nothing in stealth. Use vanish to your advantage in this situation, when you need to get a mutilate off with low energy it could be the difference between a 2 point and a 5 point Rupture, everything counts.
    Now by taking Preparation as a talent choice instead of Shadowstep, you can now use Vanish, get a free Mutilate and then do it again using Prep. Extra DPS, at a cost of 0 energy.
    Any movement at all costs you auto-attacks and poison procs. If shadowstep MID-fight (not the opener) gets you 5 total more seconds per 5 minutes, it's almost certainly out-valued prep for DPS. 1 mut vs. 5 seconds of auto-attack? I won't refute the rest of the post (rupturing dead mobs is of course wonderful), and there may be some occasions where the (slight) DPS loss (for most fights) of picking prep over shadowstep means your second defensive CDs keep you ALIVE... but for the most part, shadowstep is the highest DPS ability we have in that tier.

  10. #30
    I'd like to know how he is instantly getting to the boss on the pull while prepotting without shs or wasting a lot of prepot time. You have to be out of agro range when you pot, you ideally want to pot as close to 0 on the countdown. That entire time running over to the boss from out of agro range is you doing 0 dps and wasting your prepot time. On a 0 movement fight, 10 seconds of FW is significant enough, but one free mutilate (maybe 2) versus less time doing 0 dps...

    Personally, I like rupture first because it gives me more energy to get the rest going faster and hopefully one of the first 2 mut's will proc blindside so I can 1cp (2 if crit) snd. If you snd after your free mut and RS procs you just wasted 25 energy. You also wasted at least 1 cp possibly 2 where as doing it second allows a decent chance of using a free dispatch to snd. Rupturing first gives you an RS proc and energy from VW meaning you can get both of those up and back to high enough energy to hit ven/sb/envenom faster to better coincide with your prepot.

  11. #31
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Open with Garotte, because you can't open with 5CP Rupture, and any energy return is better than none.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Overheard View Post
    Just a few helpful hints as well, moving away from rotation. You're a Rogue, you can stealth, stop being lazy and shadowstepping everywhere.
    This is lower dps, because you cannot prepot. If you aren't planning on prepotting this can be ok, but you risk an early pull. If you prepot, stealth, and then sprint or walk to the boss, I assure you you are throwing damage down the drain versus shadowstep.

    Nothing costs energy when in stealth, so it helps to use tricks of the trade on the tank while still in stealth, you can practically walk up to the enemy next to the tank and hence why shadowstep isn't necessary, at least in a raid scenario, I'll explain why.
    Because tricks lasts for so long, you should tricks the tank during the countdown. You should do it before you are stealthed, because you will have plenty of time, and you normally want to focus on potting, then stealthing, then attacking (usually with a shadowstep first). You can, of course, tricks at the last second, but there shouldn't be a reason to do that.

    During the fight, you should not vanish -> tricks -> open, because you reset your swing timer. Vanish -> open is fine, but waiting that global of no autoattacks to save the tricks energy seems very unlikely to be of benefit.


    As said, energy costs nothing in stealth. Use vanish to your advantage in this situation, when you need to get a mutilate off with low energy it could be the difference between a 2 point and a 5 point Rupture, everything counts.
    Generally I'm finding that vanish is used best during shadow blades for all specs, but especially for mutilate and sub, as the cooldown lines up each time. Your mileage may vary, and I'm sure fights will spell this out. Vanish is not the dps gain it used to be in the days of garrote proccing a second set of VWs.

    Now by taking Preparation as a talent choice instead of Shadowstep, you can now use Vanish, get a free Mutilate and then do it again using Prep. Extra DPS, at a cost of 0 energy.
    Prep will make you do less damage on most bosses. This is because your one additional vanish is fighting a great deal of uptime that shadowstep provides. It only takes a couple seconds of travel time eliminated to beat the trivial gain prep offers, and not much more than that to beat the moderate gain prep offers to sub. Of the five bosses I have fought in this tier, I only don't take shadowstep on the dog boss. Shadowstep is a clear damage gain on Feng, saving me several seconds of travel time during P1 and P2, and is also helpful on the troll, as I go into the shadowrealm sometimes. Spirit Kings sometimes requires walking away from a boss, and shadowstep eliminates the return trip, and it's pretty obviously superior on Elegon.

    Second handy hint, if an enemy is about to die and there are other enemies around that need to be killed, I.e. Boss fights with adds, etc. If your Rupture is running low, just pour all your CPs into the largest Rupture you can, it gains the vast majority of your energy back when the enemy dies, and you can move to the next enemy with a fully loaded gun. Try to use you better judgement here though, if you're about half way through your energy or your SnD is about to fall, then use those CPs in an Env. It's completely situational.
    I'm not sure that this is correct. Have you compared this to redirecting your CPs to the new target?



    PvE rogues should be shadowstep specced unless a fight presents a very good argument for anything else.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 10:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Open with Garotte, because you can't open with 5CP Rupture, and any energy return is better than none.
    Incorrect. Garrote does trivial damage and makes less combo points. You should open with ambush or mutilate, and be sure to put up your rupture. Because Garrote ticks slower than rupture, using your opener still requires a rupture promptly, and a single WV proc isn't going to make up for the terribleness of garrote. If you rupture on the first global, you don't even lose that- if you open garrote you get your first possible tick at second three, and if I open mutilate and rupture immediately, my first possible tick is at second three.

    As mutilate, do not garrote unless you want to silence an enemy.

  13. #33
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    If you rupture on the first global, you don't even lose that- if you open garrote you get your first possible tick at second three, and if I open mutilate and rupture immediately, my first possible tick is at second three.
    Except that you have a short term buff to reapply ASAP and no combo points, and I have at least 3.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/4/4
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Glyphmaster Gunhaver

  14. #34
    No, you have that same issue. You will rapidly begin losing dps to garrote's long tick period, so your best bet is actually to rupture promptly as well. Additionally, a 2-3 point rupture is not an unreasonable length of time.

    Do. Not. Garrote.

  15. #35
    Should have been /thread a long time ago. Garrote is inferior. Mutilate is best. The evidence has been presented over and over and over. If you want to keep using Garrote, just know that you're using the worst possible opener.

  16. #36
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    If you want to keep using Garrote, just know that you're using the worst possible opener.
    Well. Nope.

    Cheap Shot on bosses is the worst possible opener.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/4/4
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Generally I'm finding that vanish is used best during shadow blades for all specs, but especially for mutilate and sub, as the cooldown lines up each time. Your mileage may vary, and I'm sure fights will spell this out. Vanish is not the dps gain it used to be in the days of garrote proccing a second set of VWs.
    I sort of see your point with that in that the free mut gives you an extra cp if you time them together. The value of your auto attacks though is vastly higher than normal while SB is up so resetting the swing is more costly. I would lean towards the cp being worth it, but I don't think it is inherently obvious enough that it doesn't need proper testing.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Well. Nope.

    Cheap Shot on bosses is the worst possible opener.
    If your target isn't immune, 2 CPs is probably worth more than Garrote's 1 CP and shit damage. That's how terrible Garrote is.

  19. #39
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    If your target isn't immune, 2 CPs is probably worth more than Garrote's 1 CP and shit damage. That's how terrible Garrote is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Cheap Shot on bosses is the worst possible opener.
    Also, fallacious argument posed by you there. Garotte also generates Energy (which you omitted), and it's clearly not used for the damage.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/4/4
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Glyphmaster Gunhaver

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Also, fallacious argument posed by you there. Garotte also generates Energy (which you omitted), and it's clearly not used for the damage.
    But you would get at most 1 tick of garrote off before the person that opens with a mut gets his rupture off. After that, the rupture is getting him way more energy than garrote is getting you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    If your target isn't immune, 2 CPs is probably worth more than Garrote's 1 CP and shit damage. That's how terrible Garrote is.
    Um, if your target isn't immune, cheap shot is the highest dps opener because there is no reason to not take the 10% increased damage while stunned talent (both the others are pretty much worthless on bosses, as is the stun one except in this case where we assume you can stun it).

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