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  1. #41
    I live in Quebec but was raised in France...

    I really don't know about the details so I'll keep it short but I'd like bigger content in secondary (in QC)... I'm baffled by how little my nephews (13 and 14 living here) and my gf (from here) know about general stuff (day to day science, practical biology, geography, history, general knowledge). All stuff that I was taught during secondary school in my native country.

    I mean it makes me laugh sometimes when they have no idea where a country they are at war with is. But inside it makes me a little sad.
    Last edited by rezoacken; 2012-10-09 at 08:58 PM.

  2. #42
    The Lightbringer Vizardlorde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Symphonic View Post
    Only hire teachers who teach because they enjoy passing on knowledge to kids, not for the money. (which is funny because teachers don't get much pay (unless you're teaching in Chicago))
    I know passing personal experiences as facts is a fallacy, but from my experience middle aged teachers suck at teaching, the only people who seemed to successfully pass knowledge onto their students were either very young or very old. Middle aged teachers seemed to have this memememememe thing going on where they would only talk about themselves and not teach anything. More than a handful said that the performance of their students didn't matter to them because it wouldn't affect their payment by much and it wouldn't affect their benefits at all.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    So basically you support a system that has been empirically shown to not work at all but want to increase costs drastically by ensuring school buses would have to collect students from ridiculously far flung places?

    Brilliant.
    No ... currently we (taxpayers) pay about 15k or 17k depending on public school per child.
    Some private schools charge less.
    School bus - at least for my kid, costs under 900 dollars per school year.

    So basically what I'm saying is that if I'd have a voucher for 15k, I'd be able to pay for my kid's private school + bus transportation + have have few K left over.

    I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say it doesn't work. It's cheaper, plus you can hire exactly the teachers you want, based on performance.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Creamy Flames View Post
    Since I think the big problem with schools boils down to what Ken Robinson has said what's wrong with it.
    Personally I think we need a school that doesn't just do theoretical teaching, but practical teaching. We all know that it's easier to learn by doing, and that reading coupled with actually doing what you're reading about, makes things both easier and more fun.
    i agree with this video very much.
    university inflation is happening as we speak
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    But do they have data showing how much fun players are having? Because surely that's what counts. You could have a game where only 1% of players can do the top raid but still everybody's having fun, and you could have a game where 100% of the players see everything but they're all bored and whining and quitting. Fun can't be quantified with straight-up data, and trying to use statistics to measure fun is a dangerous logical minefield.
    "The Perfect Raid Design Drawn by me .

  5. #45
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Make tertiary education free.

    Introduce an apprenticeship program for technical education.

    Increase teacher wages by 50%.

    Get rid of textbooks, introducing a kindle rental system.

    Provide rental laptops for all students.

    Among other things.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Make tertiary education free.

    Introduce an apprenticeship program for technical education.

    Increase teacher wages by 50%.

    Get rid of textbooks, introducing a kindle rental system.

    Provide rental laptops for all students.

    Among other things.
    So your solution is to throw money at the problem and hope it goes away. A solution that has proven to work in exactly zero examples i can think of.

    Increase teacher salaries by 50%? Do you have NO concept of what they do compared to how much they make? They work 180 days a year with fully state-subsidized benefits. Their compensation packages are already upwards of $75,000 a year in most jurisdictions.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Make tertiary education free.

    Introduce an apprenticeship program for technical education.

    Increase teacher wages by 50%.

    Get rid of textbooks, introducing a kindle rental system.

    Provide rental laptops for all students.

    Among other things.
    you do realise this all costs money (that we don't have ) right?
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    But do they have data showing how much fun players are having? Because surely that's what counts. You could have a game where only 1% of players can do the top raid but still everybody's having fun, and you could have a game where 100% of the players see everything but they're all bored and whining and quitting. Fun can't be quantified with straight-up data, and trying to use statistics to measure fun is a dangerous logical minefield.
    "The Perfect Raid Design Drawn by me .

  8. #48
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    you do realise this all costs money (that we don't have ) right?
    Tax revenue from an appropriately progressive tax system would cover these costs just fine.

    It's not like sovereign states can go bankrupt anyway.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    So your solution is to throw money at the problem and hope it goes away. A solution that has proven to work in exactly zero examples i can think of.
    I dunno, it works well where I'm from, not all of them apply but most of those things or close to it. Post-Secondary Education is subsidized, teachers generally make more (at least they do when last I compared it to my friend's wife in Florida when he was thinking of moving), many schools now have a rent-to-own laptop program for high school because they get massive educational discounts on the hardware, post-secondary students get a laptop as part of their tuition in most degrees, Gov't provides free or near-to free apprenticeship programs for skilled trades.

    I think that leaves off the kindles and the free aspects.

    This is all the while spending less of a % of GDP on Education (4.9% vs 5.4% in the US) higher High School graduation rate (79% vs 76%) and the highest proportion of university students in OECD nations.
    Last edited by Tradewind; 2012-10-09 at 09:41 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Tax revenue from an appropriately progressive tax system would cover these costs just fine.

    It's not like sovereign states can go bankrupt anyway.
    The system IS appropriately progressive. You're simply talking about raising taxes across the board at this point.

  11. #51
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    So your solution is to throw money at the problem and hope it goes away. A solution that has proven to work in exactly zero examples i can think of.

    Increase teacher salaries by 50%? Do you have NO concept of what they do compared to how much they make? They work 180 days a year with fully state-subsidized benefits. Their compensation packages are already upwards of $75,000 a year in most jurisdictions.
    Let me elaborate my points while I'm waiting for Sha of Anger to respawn.

    1) The reason why the US is failing so badly against countries like China and India is because we have not adjusted our output of intellectual capital to make up for the devaluation of our human capital. Making tertiary education free would assist in this by increasing the pool of college-trained individuals.

    2) College is not for everyone. In order to keep buying power up and keep the standard of living at an acceptable level, technical training programs would help those not cut out for four year schooling by helping them into jobs which by definition cannot be outsourced.

    3) The ideal teacher to student ratio is 1:16. In the United States, the federal average is 1:34. Increasing teacher wages would help to attract more individuals to the profession which benefits the students as well as making teaching more lucrative.

    4) Textbooks are not only environmentally unfriendly, but represent a massive drain on public schools and a huge cost on college students, in many cases outstripping their tuition fees. This is because they are both expensive to print and go out of date every time a new edition is published. Kindles are vastly cheaper and can be kept up to date for a minimal fee.

    5) This is a modern age, and computer skills are pretty much required in most professions. This helps to make our students more adept with computers as well as providing access to computers for even the poorest child.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 02:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    The system IS appropriately progressive. You're simply talking about raising taxes across the board at this point.
    Nope, just on the upper bracket. Income taxes were 90% at the highest bracket at one point.

    Also, you're ignoring the disgracefully low percentage of capital gains tax.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer Vizardlorde's Avatar
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    I think didactic's suggested apprenticeship program is a great Idea, at least Im sure it would work for me because my way of learning is different from most other people. I learn from watching other people and mimicking them while using their experience as if it were my own. Yup I am weird.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Let me elaborate my points while I'm waiting for Sha of Anger to respawn.

    1) The reason why the US is failing so badly against countries like China and India is because we have not adjusted our output of intellectual capital to make up for the devaluation of our human capital. Making tertiary education free would assist in this by increasing the pool of college-trained individuals.
    I'm not necessarily opposed to this as long as everyone (not just high school graduates) received it.

    2) College is not for everyone. In order to keep buying power up and keep the standard of living at an acceptable level, technical training programs would help those not cut out for four year schooling by helping them into jobs which by definition cannot be outsourced.
    Again, not opposed.

    3) The ideal teacher to student ratio is 1:16. In the United States, the federal average is 1:34. Increasing teacher wages would help to attract more individuals to the profession which benefits the students as well as making teaching more lucrative.
    This is what I have a problem with. Not just a problem, but a "What the fuck are you thinking?!" problem.

    Here's the median salary for a high school teacher.

    I cannot stress enough that these people receive median or above median salaries combined with fully subsidized benefits packages. Their real compensation is between $75,000 and $100,000 a year already. All this for working 180 days a year. Almost every other job works 260 days per year not counting vacation time. So they work 80 fewer days and get significantly better compensation. A 50% increase in their salary is a ludicrously stupid idea. It's such a stupid idea I can't believe I even have to explain why.

    Nope, just on the upper bracket. Income taxes were 90% at the highest bracket at one point.

    Also, you're ignoring the disgracefully low percentage of capital gains tax.
    I don't like the capital gains tax any more than you do. And if we raised the income taxes on the upper bracket to 90% (Which is stupid since no one actually paid it when it was implemented) then the system wouldn't be "appropriately" progressive. It would be so heavily weighted against the wealthy as to not be fair to them.

    Stick with a pareto distribution.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    This is what I have a problem with. Not just a problem, but a "What the fuck are you thinking?!" problem.

    Here's the median salary for a high school teacher.

    I cannot stress enough that these people receive median or above median salaries combined with fully subsidized benefits packages. Their real compensation is between $75,000 and $100,000 a year already. All this for working 180 days a year. Almost every other job works 260 days per year not counting vacation time. So they work 80 fewer days and get significantly better compensation. A 50% increase in their salary is a ludicrously stupid idea. It's such a stupid idea I can't believe I even have to explain why.
    Don't get too caught up, it says right in there that the median salary is derived from those with 15+ years of experience. I think starting salaries could do with a bump. To earn those higher levels you need to have a ton of experience.

  15. #55
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I'm not necessarily opposed to this as long as everyone (not just high school graduates) received it.
    Sorry, High School education is necessary for collegiate education.

    This is what I have a problem with. Not just a problem, but a "What the fuck are you thinking?!" problem.

    Here's the median salary for a high school teacher.

    I cannot stress enough that these people receive median or above median salaries combined with fully subsidized benefits packages. Their real compensation is between $75,000 and $100,000 a year already. All this for working 180 days a year. Almost every other job works 260 days per year not counting vacation time. So they work 80 fewer days and get significantly better compensation. A 50% increase in their salary is a ludicrously stupid idea. It's such a stupid idea I can't believe I even have to explain why.
    And yet the pool of teachers is shrinking. Perhaps you do not grasp just how difficult educating children is.

    I don't like the capital gains tax any more than you do. And if we raised the income taxes on the upper bracket to 90% (Which is stupid since no one actually paid it when it was implemented) then the system wouldn't be "appropriately" progressive. It would be so heavily weighted against the wealthy as to not be fair to them.
    I love the capital gains tax. I just don't like how low it is. Raise it.

    Oh really? Tell me what year the upper bracket was raised to 90%.

    Stick with a pareto distribution.
    Considering 90% of the wealth is held by 10% of the population, my proposal isn't outrageous by that standard.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Sorry, High School education is necessary for collegiate education.
    I was referring to adults looking for a career change.

    And yet the pool of teachers is shrinking. Perhaps you do not grasp just how difficult educating children is.
    The pool of teachers is shrinking? That comes as no surprise to me considering states around the country have been laying their overpaid asses off. Perhaps you don't understand how expensive lavish benefits packages are. Maybe we should ask Stockton, California if it's expensive.

    I love the capital gains tax. I just don't like how low it is. Raise it.

    Oh really? Tell me what year the upper bracket was raised to 90%.
    Like that info is hard to find

    Here's a fun exercise though. Why don't you look up what the bracket was at the top, then do inflation calculations to see how much you'd need to make today to pay such high taxes.


    Considering 90% of the wealth is held by 10% of the population, my proposal isn't outrageous by that standard.
    It's actually 80% of the wealth being held by 20% of the population. Oh, and we're not talking about wealth since taxation of wealth is horse shit. We're talking about income.
    Last edited by Laize; 2012-10-09 at 10:03 PM.

  17. #57
    Our school system is perfect. It is run by the government, just like our healthcare should be. The school system is working exactly as intended. Besides, who needs an education when the government will just take care of you?

    Seriously though, my kids will be home schooled or maybe private schooled. So I don't really care about the public school system.
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH8472 View Post
    In North Korea Dog eats man!

  18. #58
    You know what, this information is just too good not to share.

    In 1960 you'd have to earn over $1.5 million a year to pay 90% taxes and the bottom bracket (aka the poorest people) was 20%. Double what it is today.

    In contrast, the top tax bracket today is $250,000. That's who you seem to be advocating should pay 90% taxes.

  19. #59
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    You know what, this information is just too good not to share.

    In 1960 you'd have to earn over $1.5 million a year to pay 90% taxes and the bottom bracket (aka the poorest people) was 20%. Double what it is today.

    In contrast, the top tax bracket today is $250,000. That's who you seem to be advocating should pay 90% taxes.
    Only because you're taking my words with extreme literalism. Why the hell would I be advocating adjusting the amount a bracket pays without a bracket adjustment?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 03:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I was referring to adults looking for a career change.
    They should already have their high school diplomas or the GED.

    The pool of teachers is shrinking? That comes as no surprise to me considering states around the country have been laying their overpaid asses off. Perhaps you don't understand how expensive lavish benefits packages are. Maybe we should ask Stockton, California if it's expensive.
    And American anti-intellectualism rears its ugly head yet again.

    Teaching is not a do nothing job. It is quite difficult, point of fact, especially with such large class sizes. So while they may have 'benefits', the compensation which as was pointed out only applies to very experienced teachers is still not enough.

    Then again, Americans don't care about academics.

    Here's a fun exercise though. Why don't you look up what the bracket was at the top, then do inflation calculations to see how much you'd need to make today to pay such high taxes.

    It's actually 80% of the wealth being held by 20% of the population. Oh, and we're not talking about wealth since taxation of wealth is horse shit. We're talking about income.
    Entirely false. It is in fact 90% being held by 10%, the highest wealth disparity in any Western country.

    And "Income" does not include capital gains. Please stop quoting Fox Finance.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  20. #60
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
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    The education system(s) around the world don't teach creativity or intelligence. They teach people that they're only worth what trivial bullshit they can hold inside their head, and if they can't hold quite enough information that the teacher wants, they're a drooling retard.

    It disgusts me that children go into the education system, overcoming immense challenges, that we take for granted now, such as Walking, Talking & all the other near sub-conscious functions we perform, because as a small child we're determined to improve, you strive to better ourselves. We look to our elders or our peers and see what we can become, and reach for it.

    The education system beats that out of children. It teaches them to resent success, that you're only worth what your boss pays you and that it is acceptable to spend a mere 16 - 18 years in education in your early years, only for you to then spend the rest of your life confined to work, so you can then retire on a pathetic pension and pretend that what you did was a duty.

    It is bullshit. I've never believed it, I refuse to believe the education system is worth what it costs us in Tax, and my children will grow up knowing that intelligence is not the ability to recall information, but to create new opportunities and create success for yourself. If I wanted someone to recite me history or facts, I would get a computer, not another employee.

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