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  1. #41
    Reforging right now only make guardiantanks worse instead of pointless compare to others tanks in 25man. but to be worse i would say hit/expertise/crit and then /pray you dodge attacks when you got SD up.

  2. #42
    Stamina is guaranteed survivability.
    Mastery is guaranteed mitigation.
    Agility is a jack of all trades master of none.
    Dodge is a CHANCE to avoid damage which then falls back on Stamina and Mastery.
    Crit is a CHANCE to heal with LotP and generate rage.

    This is my point of view and current stat priority.

    I would also point out, and question because I do not know, but does not more AP = harder hts and thus more Rage generation?

    As long as we are RNG based, STAMINA is king.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejablue View Post
    Stamina is guaranteed survivability.
    Mastery is guaranteed mitigation.
    Agility is a jack of all trades master of none.
    Dodge is a CHANCE to avoid damage which then falls back on Stamina and Mastery.
    Crit is a CHANCE to heal with LotP and generate rage.

    This is my point of view and current stat priority.

    I would also point out, and question because I do not know, but does not more AP = harder hts and thus more Rage generation?

    As long as we are RNG based, STAMINA is king.
    Hitting harder does not mean more rage. Unless, of course, that harder hit is a crit. You can hit for 5 damage (white or yellow damage) and it will generate the same amount of rage as a hit for 500k.

  4. #44

    Awesome results!

    So our 10 man normal was tonight and I had some awesome results. I ended up reforging/geming Hit/exp (cap) > Crit > mastery > dodge > sta > agi > haste and it worked amazing.

    On Stone guard I self healed a little over 7.9Mil, thank god because our druid healer died when the boss was around 40%. We managed to down it with a disc priest and shaman healer still up. Overall way better then last week when I was mastery heavy with reforges.

    Feng posed a problem for us last week and this week was the same, for awhile. We decided to try and two heal the fight and we made our disc priest go shadow. I stayed gemed and reforged the same as the first boss. Self healing on this was around 5mil, which I feel was pretty good overall.

    Anyways so far I am liking the rage generating build that is Hit/exp/crit heavy.

    Next week will probably be differnt from what I read, but we will see. The self healing from FR seemed almost to powerful in comparison with SD. But I am only 3 bosses deep.

    You can armory me at US-Bloodscalp, character name is Griz.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griz66 View Post
    So our 10 man normal was tonight and I had some awesome results. I ended up reforging/geming Hit/exp (cap) > Crit > mastery > dodge > sta > agi > haste and it worked amazing.

    On Stone guard I self healed a little over 7.9Mil, thank god because our druid healer died when the boss was around 40%. We managed to down it with a disc priest and shaman healer still up. Overall way better then last week when I was mastery heavy with reforges.

    Feng posed a problem for us last week and this week was the same, for awhile. We decided to try and two heal the fight and we made our disc priest go shadow. I stayed gemed and reforged the same as the first boss. Self healing on this was around 5mil, which I feel was pretty good overall.

    Anyways so far I am liking the rage generating build that is Hit/exp/crit heavy.

    Next week will probably be differnt from what I read, but we will see. The self healing from FR seemed almost to powerful in comparison with SD. But I am only 3 bosses deep.

    You can armory me at US-Bloodscalp, character name is Griz.
    Same experience for me. Tanking Elegon 10man was made simple without the glyph'd FD and some reliable rage gen from being hit/exp capped. I'm slowly moving away from Stam & Mastery and I dont see myself looking back.

  6. #46
    I'm quite happy with:

    Stamina (until 500k health ish)
    Hit/Exp (both to 7.5%)
    Crit (As much as I can get my hands on)
    Mastery (Reforged only when an item already has crit on it)







    Everything else

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejablue View Post
    Stamina is guaranteed survivability.
    Mastery is guaranteed mitigation.
    Agility is a jack of all trades master of none.
    Dodge is a CHANCE to avoid damage which then falls back on Stamina and Mastery.
    Crit is a CHANCE to heal with LotP and generate rage.

    This is my point of view and current stat priority.

    I would also point out, and question because I do not know, but does not more AP = harder hts and thus more Rage generation?

    As long as we are RNG based, STAMINA is king.
    Just to point out, Mastery is only physical mitigation, which is why people are talking about going full FR. While it is not random, the amount of physical damage you take varies a lot, and a fight with high magic damage makes mastery less useful. While dodge and crit are both RNG, crit mitigation(through SD or FR) is less random. You may never dodge a big attack, only a small one, reducing the amount of mitigation. If you crit, no matter how big or small, you get the same rage, making the mitigation more reliable.

    I know this is a step down from what most people are running, but I am only 89. I was chain running Direbrew, my FR was averaging 80K per use. That is huge on a 300k health pool.

  8. #48
    Regarding Sejta's reforging strategy, I have to wonder if his high priority on crit was mostly for rage gen, using FR to heal magic damage/other damage, and/or if it was to allow him to use the same gear, to swap to kitty spec, for fights they could solo tank?

    In other words, simply because the guy who has the world first heroic raid kill does it, then does that necessarily mean that it's the optimal strategy for everyone else, throughout the normal course of this tier?

  9. #49
    I've done quite a bit of the math if people are interested. theetova.blogspot.ca

    There's a Google doc's spreadsheet link in there you can copy and put in your stats to get your own stat weights but I list the approximates for current raiding bears.

  10. #50
    TheeTova, your maths is wrong.

    When you calculated agi per 1% crit and dodge you multiplied the total difference by the % difference (aka 897 and 0.71% for dodge) when you should've divided. This would actually give you 1263 agi per 1% dodge and completely change your entire sheet i'm afraid. I'd also suggest you ensure mastery is accurately represented because a 1% increase with mastery is the same as a 1% increase with haste, in as much as 1% does more as you accumulate more. (I'm unaware of the armor formula for diminishing returns, if there are any.)

  11. #51
    Though you're correct (I have updated the spread sheet) It doesn't change much.

    When it comes to mastery, I'm afraid it is poop. Right now around 82k armor we need about 3500 armor to get 1% dam reduction. In order to get that much armour we need over 4% mastery. That takes almost 2k rating. To get 1% dodge (which overall is the same as 1% less damage from armor) you only need 883 rating. You can see that 1 mastery rating is less that 50% of dodge. Hence mastery being significantly lower than dodge.
    Last edited by TheeTova; 2012-10-12 at 06:46 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by TheeTova View Post
    Though you're correct (I have updated the spread sheet) It doesn't change much.

    When it comes to mastery, I'm afraid it is poop. Right now around 82k armor we need about 3500 armor to get 1% dam reduction. In order to get that much armour we need over 4% mastery. That takes almost 2k rating. To get 1% dodge (which overall is the same as 1% less damage from armor) you only need 883 rating. You can see that 1 mastery rating is less that 50% of dodge. Hence mastery being significantly lower than dodge.
    Why are you reducing the GCD for haste? The GCD is a flat 1.5 seconds except for FFF.

    You're also still using bleed ticks to calculate Mangle procs, which is incorrect. That was changed a loooooooooong time ago to only proc off of Lacerate / Thrash / FFF that hit a target.

    Enrage is only 0.5 Rage / second.

    I'm also suspicious that you're not using the armor formula vs l93, only observations on the character window.

    You're also not calculating the amount of armor for a relative 1% damage reduction, instead using an absolute 1% damage reduction.

    Further, there's no mention anywhere of what kind of DTPS you're using.

  13. #53
    Thanks, adjusting for your suggestions. I have not been able to track down the formula for armour so I've just been using a linear approximations for around 82k armor.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    Regarding Sejta's reforging strategy, I have to wonder if his high priority on crit was mostly for rage gen, using FR to heal magic damage/other damage, and/or if it was to allow him to use the same gear, to swap to kitty spec, for fights they could solo tank?

    In other words, simply because the guy who has the world first heroic raid kill does it, then does that necessarily mean that it's the optimal strategy for everyone else, throughout the normal course of this tier?
    I can assure you going Exp/Hit capped and striving for as much Crit as humanly possible is the way to go. Within the first three bosses alone we manged to 2 heal the first and second boss. I feel this way because of two reasons #1, I dont think two healing would be very viable at all without the priorities mentioned in this thread. #2, I can assure you I had much more survivability now compared to being Mastery OR dodge heavy, I felt I had more survivability this week with two healers then I did last week with three. SD is worthless on the first boss and on the 2nd boss it feels damn near as worthless. FR is the way to go no questions asked, atleast for the first two bosses and it seems for alot of the ones I have to go. Granted I am still pretty early in this content.

    Also Sejta's DPS gear is reforged differntly, when I looked last at Sejta's feral gear he was COMPLETLY crit and haste for feral spec. I obviously cant speak for him I can just speak for what I have witnessed following his EU armory. One neat thing about kittys right now is Heart of the Wild. In some fights Wrath is the #1 damaging ability it far exceeds rip or rake or melee... Which is why I beleive he is going Haste > crit for his feral spec. Again this is all theory and in no way can i speak for him.
    Last edited by Griz66; 2012-10-12 at 08:01 PM.

  15. #55
    Every time someone uses Sejta as a model to gear after, I murder a kitten.

    The kitten murders have slumped recently since Cata passed but this thread is causing them to spike.
    Finh <Vodka>
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological
    if only WoW had come out when I was a teenager. Back then online gaming consisted of text-based MUDs....I could type "kill orc" faster than any of my competition, brosephs, and played a mean giantman cleric.

  16. #56
    o.O The #1 progressed feral in the world is -not- a good model to gear after? I mean sure, theorycraftwise he almost never does the "optimum" thing but it's working damned well for him so I'm assuming he knows something the theorycrafters don't. That, or actual raid experience trumps numbers every time.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerzek View Post
    Every time someone uses Sejta as a model to gear after, I murder a kitten.

    The kitten murders have slumped recently since Cata passed but this thread is causing them to spike.
    Maybe you did not read what I posted. We were able to two heal the first two bosses because of the self healing FR provided me. Im not saying I carried the raid, not at all but without going this spec this was not possible. That is one example of why following Sejta's spec makes since... In normal and in heroic content right now.

    This is not cata, we arnt following someone that has cleared all the heroics and constantly changes his gear each boss and reforges and regems... his gear was reforged like this on night one, doing normal 10 man. Its differnt than saying "OMG YOUR STAMINA STACKING IN NORMAL!??! U CANT BE LIKE SEJTA, HE IS DOING HEROICS, THATS WHY HE IS STAMINA STACKED!!! WRAWRA WRA THIS ISNT CATA" ... Which I heard in Cata all the time, even tho I stamina stacked some fights in heroic DS mainly because of impales and such, it would be one thing if we had a million variables but right now its simple... Druids need rage for FR and SD.. The Dodge and mastery you can attain by gear/gems/reforging are poop no matter how you slice it. Making SD and FR the abosolute best abilites we have. Without hit/exp caped and without the crit I am rocking I would never be able to attain the rage needed to keep these cooldowns active.

    Dont murder the kittens tho =/ Do some research and try it out, I bet you will find it works much better than the average guide out right now. I guess if its not broke dont fix it thats all I can say.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    o.O The #1 progressed feral in the world is -not- a good model to gear after?
    If you are pushing into hard mode content while still fairly undergeared, with healers that are similarly undergeared, all so that you can finish an encounter before anyone else in the world is able to do so, then yeah... Sejta is a good model. For everyone else, it's highly likely that some other strategies will prove more flexible or more resilient, even if they're not optimal for a particular boss.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by TheeTova View Post
    Thanks, adjusting for your suggestions. I have not been able to track down the formula for armour so I've just been using a linear approximations for around 82k armor.
    DamageReduction = TargetArmor / (TargetArmor + 4037.5*AttackerLevel – 317117.5)

    FWIW most of your coefficients are off too. But it was by such tiny amounts I didn't mention it.

    Every time someone uses Sejta as a model to gear after, I murder a kitten.

    The kitten murders have slumped recently since Cata passed but this thread is causing them to spike.
    As long as you understand why someone does something, and how it will affect you and your raid, then it's fine.

    But yes, it should never be used as the sole justification for doing anything.

  20. #60
    Unless your only plan is to farm content far below what you are capable of, then Sjeta's formula is still spot on.

    Let me put it this way (undiplomatically) - even though you are tackling the same boss a month after Sjeta killed it, and you have significantly higher gear and your healer has significantly higher gear too ... there's a reason it took you a month longer to get to the same spot, and it's because you guys are far worse players than him and his healer.

    We know that bad dps need gear to match the damage of a good dps. Imagine you're progressing on a boss ... what makes you think that your level of avoidance/mitigation/healing isn't very close to what Sjeta was experiencing a month ago?

    I mean sure, if *Sjeta* were doing the same content a month later, then he doesn't need that stamina (or whatever he's doing), but if it's your progression fight, it means you are at the same point he was while doing it. So why shouldn't you copy what he did?

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