Thanks Arielle, much appreciated.
Thanks Arielle, much appreciated.
Also I don't think you what my stance is, the first fight(Stone Guards) is optimal for full regen(exp/hit/crit) because so much damage is undodgable. There's not even a good reason to two-heal feng and stone guards as neither have particular pertinent soft or hard enrage timers.
In a perfect world where healers never make mistakes and dps never take extra damage that causes healer distraction(amethyst pools) stamina is the best but mastery, for example, assuming it's physical damage that is mitigated by armor, provides TTL, not as much as stamina but you also take far less damage overall.
Also please take into account that paragon and the other top guilds were practicing hard mode mechanics during the 1st week of normals and they were all geared for heroics and may or may not have been optimal for normals.
Point is, so far, Stone Guards is the only fight where stamina has remotely the same value as the alternate gearing strategy. Every other fight in Vaults does not feature a particularly large amount of unavoidable tank damage and therefore nearly all fights where you balance crit/mast.
Originally Posted by eschatological
I've been having quite a few conversations about Savage Defence vs Frenzied Regen. Well of course it depends so I've done some breakdown and even worked on finding your breaking point when Savage Defence becomes better based on gear and how much incoming is actually "dodgable".
Last edited by Longrod Vonhugendong; 2012-10-16 at 06:50 AM.
Well, a quick aside to a response to one of my previous posts, I think there was some confusion about my thoughts of stamina. Simply put, I think stamina plays a bigger role for druid than other tanks since our active mitigation is purely RNG, but that doesn't mean I think it's the highest priority on every fight. We only have 6 raid bosses (Sha/Galleon excluded), and while 6 bosses doesn't really give the full picture as to what's better more often, we do have encounters out of the 6 that are extreme polar opposites in terms of what a Guardian would want for survival and what abilities we'd want to use.
Be that as it may, we don't really have any "tank killer" mechanics in these 6 bosses in MsV. Alright, Garaj will kill us if we don't dispose of our add in a timely fashion, but that's completely avoidable. I'm talking about huge hits that we cannot necessarily avoid that should threaten our lives, or perhaps a sequence that we can avoid but RNG could kill us anyways. Everything thus far is "paper-cut damage," where it's the accumulation of smaller hits that threaten to kill us. Even Elegon's breath attack isn't one huge hit, but several smaller ticks. Beyond maybe a soft enrage, can you honestly point to a mechanic where you systematically use a major tanking CD to survive because you need to?
In this raiding environment, stamina plays a much lesser role, until those "paper-cuts" accumulate to the point where healer/tank response may not be fast enough or makes you susceptible to spike damage. The only real fight where this is heavily present is heroic Stone Guard (especially since our only guaranteed mitigation tool, i.e. mastery/armor, is basically useless), the other fights don't really threaten Guardian tanks to such an extent. However, I cannot stress enough that we're only 6 bosses into this raiding tier, with many more approaching us quickly that could change the way we want to gear.
I go with my dps gear mostly.
So my stats might be other but it works for heroics (not tanked any raids yet).
Agi/Stam (if I get a 2nd piece of gear I use that for tanking and therefor stacking stam on it).
I value dodge that low, because Mastery decrease the damage I take when I don't dodge, and while going the agi/crit/mastery route, I gain dodge and can keep SD up quite much, therfor devaluing dodge alot.
I had hoped that with monk tanks being in the game, that we could get some tanking leather (with dodge)... doesn't look like it.
"If you are going to do something, including being an alcoholic, don't half-ass it. /Cheers." - Vezrah, 2012
I reforged and gemmed away from mastery/stamina into hit/exp cap, then all crit. I have agi/crit shoulder and leg chants, but still rocking LW stam bracer (750 stam outweights 500 agi by a LOT).
Self-buffed: 500309 hp, 7.49% hit (i know missing 0.1% sucks), 7.59% exp, 35.93% crit in bear form, 84123 armour (59.04% reduction vs 93), 14.12 dodge passive.
Last stone guard fight, iirc I did around 15 million healing just on frenzied regen. Pretty insane.
I was using a lot of self-heals rather than some mauls for dps, as it was the first time we got the chains dog, and our healers were suffering a bit while people were learning.
Also, just throwing this out there: we had a 11% 'wipe' on Feng - all but me tanking, and a holy paladin were dead. The holy pala had 0% mana. We got him down to 4% just ourselves, through 3 more arcane vortex things, thanks to frenzied regen healing.
IMO the gearing is as follows: aim at least 460k hp unbuffed in bear form, then go hit/exp cap, then crit. Most people will have around 480k hp from gear alone. If your healers can't handle healing you with around 500k hp buffed, they are bad. If you gem/enchant stamina, you will be around 600k hp buffed which is far higher than needed for normal modes, and probably heroic modes too.
I always seemed to find that stat prio's early on tended to be rather skewed, then when people start to rock heroics stam always seemed to end up being a much more important stat. Dont know why its gone that way, but i have always felt safer with a larger Healthpool, maybe because its an actual visual check of where i am at in the fight. Its seems getting a hit cap and exp cap might be the way to go to at least get decent FR heals, then stamina after that.
As for hit/exp, I hate! not having cap but it's just so much more rage overall for me to go crit and even haste over cap. What I tend to do to get through the frustration of early parries/dodges is maul if I do see lots of misses. Shhh, don't tell my healers!
What i have been doing is Reforge Hit/Exp-Dodge cap>Crit>Mastery>=Dodge>Haste
Enc wise Stam/mastery
I haven't been having any trouble at all.
I too like my stam! Tanking is managable what ever you're doing atm I find. I've just been tremendously disappointed with mastery after I did the math : (
Couple notes, if you like exp to dodge cap, you get the same return all the way to parry cap. The other big thing is with having Primal Fury (15 rage more on mangle and auto attack crits) AND bear form giving 50% crit (and haste) rating from gear makes 1 crit rating very valuable.
For crit lovers like myself we go with:
Last edited by valiorik; 2012-10-18 at 04:05 PM.
Smooth Sun's Radiance (320 Crit) - 13.81
Deadly Vermilion Onyx (80 Agi/160Crit) - 9.31
Crafty Vermilion Onyx (160 Exp/160 Crit) - 9.83
Deadly Vermilion Onyx (80 Agi/160Crit) - 9.31
Perfect Delicate Pandarian Garnet (160 Agi) - 4.81
Regal Alexandrite (160 Crit/120 Stam) - 6.91
Guardian's Imperial Amethyst (160 Exp/ 120 Stam) - 2.92
Shifting Imperial Amethyst (80 Agi/120 Stam) - 2.40
The post is at theetova.blogspot.ca/2012/10/guardian-stat-weights.html for those who would like to see.
Last edited by TheeTova; 2012-10-18 at 05:36 PM.
Yeah, blue is just relative to each other based on the off stats. Personally I weight stam highest but it is subjective. I talk about it at bit in my stat weights post at
"The Stam Discussions
I've not include calculations for stam for the simple fact that it has always been subjective and and variant from druid to druid. My personal option is I love being fat, it works well with my great healers with high throughput and my personal play style. I personally weigh stam higher than agi and now crit but this is something I'm even rethinking with the current raid content."