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  1. #141
    The off trinkets I consider using if I'm not using my stam ones are:

    - Ghost Iron Dragonling - Crit, Exp, Haste cohwheels (I'm hit capped)
    - Coren's Cold Chromium Coaster
    - Searing Words
    - Relic of Xuen
    - Brawler's Statue
    - Flashing Steel Talisman - If I'm not hit capped
    - Windswept Pages

    In roughly that order. Keep in mind the pvp ones too, they do have pve stats. I won't list them all but my favourite is Dreadful Gladiator's Emblem of Cruelty

  2. #142
    Thanks, Tova. I actually just got done reading the last part of Arielle's FAQ, in which she covers trinkets for different purposes. (I'm always late to the party)

    I think the searing words is definitely one I'd be big on. It's a moot point, since brewfest is over, but one thing I recently found out, regarding Coren's Coaster, is that the chance to proc the extra AP is only 10%, once you land a crit. Perhaps this small proc chance is minimized by the 50% crit boost that guardians get (more critical hits=more chances to proc the AP buff), but for enhancement shamans, at least, it's not a highly recommended trinket.

    I'd also consider the shado-pan revered hawkmaster's talon, if/when you have the spare VP to pick it up.

  3. #143
    So much misinformation

    -The main appeal of Agi in Cata was the large amount of AP from it boosting savage defense. This is no longer the case. An agi trinket would give far less mitigation than, say, the mastery trink that procs for dodge from Elegon.

    -Hit and Exp are theoretically worse than crit but it's still desired for streamlined rage.

    -Stamina does not, repeat, DOES NOT affect healing for frenzied regen in any noticable way. It increases the MINIMUM amount of healing. This means that you are literally taking no damage and have no vengeance.

    So please, for the sake of new, learning bears, do your research on actual good bear sites such as theincbear and NOT icyveins. Icyveins gets half their information completely wrong or it's outdated.

  4. #144
    Settle down there.

    First, these are trinkets available before raid.

    Second, I don't think anyone said more stam means more FR healing...

    Third, "streamline" rage from hit/exp may be the case but we are working over long enough periods of time (ie 6-10 sec to get to 60 rage to use an ability) and due to Primal Fury crit generate (almost doubles) the amount of rage we generate per point. I could see if we were worry on a attack per attack basis I'd worry about each individual attack and there for hit/exp. Over say a whole fight I'd rather 2x rage then have 1/2 the rage. That's why we have enrage, berz and Inc to deal with the clustering nature of rng.

    Lastly when it comes to agi and mastery, you need over 2000 mastery to get 1% dam reduction but only about 1200 agi to get 1% dodge. Then add the crit you get from the agi you generate more RPS and that translate into more mitigation from SD (overall dodge) or more HPS from FR.

    Taker easy there.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-25 at 09:35 PM ----------

    Thought I would post this here too, I posted in another bear threat but there is more action here!

    Thought this would be the best place to post this, bear weapon enchants.

    So first look I didn't think Dancing Steel was going to be as good as Windsong so, to the drawing board.

    Windsong (2RPPM)

    Uptime: 40%
    - due to Real Procs Per Minute

    Rating: 1500

    Ave Stat Weight: 0.0243
    - (Crit+Haste+Mastery)/3

    Enchant Weight: 14.56
    - Uptime* Ave Weight * Value


    Dancing Steel (1PPM)
    Uptime: ?
    At least 20%

    Agi: 1650

    Stat Weight: 0.0292

    Ench Weight: >14.56
    - Uptime* Agi Weight * Value

    So with a static 20% uptime Dancing Steel is less than Windsong, the question is with PPM not RPPM what is the uptime.

    I just worked out the breaking point until we get more numbers on the actual up time for bears.

    Uptime Breaking Point > 30.23%
    - windsong weight / (1650agi * Agi Stat Weight)

    Let me know if you have any bear logs to see some actual uptimes on Dancing Steel.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by TheeTova View Post
    If you take a look at that spread sheet on my Stat Weight post, I even value haste over hit/exp. It works out to be more rage per second at the moment for me.
    Awesome spreadsheet, got me the normalized stat weights, fed it to ask mr robot for a easy reforge/regem strategy. Quite some change over my guesswork -_-

    Some questions tho:
    * Crit depression: I red on the intrawebs that bosses have a crit suppression going on, that lowers actual crits vs them by 3% for spells and 4.8% for melee, true or .. ?
    * Stats to be imputed in the green fields, are those the unbuffed human form ones ? or self buffed? or self buffed in bear form ? or unbuffed bear form? I just assumed unbuffed in human form .
    * SD charges limiting SD uptime, 3 charges, 6 sec duration, 9 sec recharge -> max uptime is 66.6%, hence SD can't go up more than tis for longer duration fights (think I red on the intrawebs that, if starting fight with 3 SD charges... after 40 something secs you are limited by the charge cooldowns to 66% uptime). FR doesn't have this limitation.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by TheeTova View Post
    Settle down there.

    First, these are trinkets available before raid.

    Second, I don't think anyone said more stam means more FR healing...

    Third, "streamline" rage from hit/exp may be the case but we are working over long enough periods of time (ie 6-10 sec to get to 60 rage to use an ability) and due to Primal Fury crit generate (almost doubles) the amount of rage we generate per point. I could see if we were worry on a attack per attack basis I'd worry about each individual attack and there for hit/exp. Over say a whole fight I'd rather 2x rage then have 1/2 the rage. That's why we have enrage, berz and Inc to deal with the clustering nature of rng.

    Lastly when it comes to agi and mastery, you need over 2000 mastery to get 1% dam reduction but only about 1200 agi to get 1% dodge. Then add the crit you get from the agi you generate more RPS and that translate into more mitigation from SD (overall dodge) or more HPS from FR.

    Taker easy there.[COLOR="red"]
    1. As long as you have iron protector talisman, the 2nd trink you can pick w/e you want imo.
    2. Yes, people did say that.
    3. 2000 mastery rating will mitigate more over a fight than 2000 dodge rating or even 2000 agility.
    Another problem with dodge is that in this expansion our base dodge chance is very low, so, while theoretically going from 12% dodge to 16% dodge is a large amount of avoidance, it still makes you very spiky.
    One of the main appeals with mastery is that it smooths out incoming damage so that while even if you take more damage in the end(as long as it's not a huge amount) you'll most likely be better off than if you went pure dodge.

    Getting any amount of hit/exp in the end is personal preference(I know I went full crit for Garajal because it's the largest dps stat) but you'll probably change your tune when your mangle gets parried/dodged 3 times in a row and you sit at 50 rage forever on Will and you get hit for over half your hp in 3 seconds.
    Last edited by Finbezwaz; 2012-10-26 at 01:26 PM.

  7. #147
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    to me theres something wrong with a bear tank if they value crit and haste over say dodge or mastery (armor) ;p doesnt seem right to me...
    im currently hit/exp capped and gemmed for crit, exp/crit and it does allow for SD to be kept on CDa lot if needed and nice fast FR.. still seems wrong tho as a tank.
    dodge is an abysmal stat to go for atm, same as mastery.. WEIRD I TELL YA...

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheeTova View Post
    Just a heads up Emane that I've found that it takes about 2000 mastery rating to get 1% damage reduction against 93s and only about 890 dodge rating to get 1% dodge. That's a huge difference and for me makes mastery A LOT worse that dodge. Though if you're dps more often than not I wouldn't want to lose that mastery.

    As for hit/exp, I hate! not having cap but it's just so much more rage overall for me to go crit and even haste over cap. What I tend to do to get through the frustration of early parries/dodges is maul if I do see lots of misses. Shhh, don't tell my healers!
    Thanks! I will most likely dps more thou, and only tank heroics. Where tbf, it makes little different. But will keep that in mind for raids if I ever gonna tank a raid.
    "If you are going to do something, including being an alcoholic, don't half-ass it. /Cheers." - Vezrah, 2012

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by emoelitistthreadderailer View Post
    to me theres something wrong with a bear tank if they value crit and haste over say dodge or mastery (armor) ;p doesnt seem right to me...
    im currently hit/exp capped and gemmed for crit, exp/crit and it does allow for SD to be kept on CDa lot if needed and nice fast FR.. still seems wrong tho as a tank.
    dodge is an abysmal stat to go for atm, same as mastery.. WEIRD I TELL YA...
    I personally am not sold on the whole Crit build. It doesn't make sense at all from a mathmatical standpoint. I'm with Gerzek in that Mastery and dodge provide more passive damage reduction while FR is more Reactive; after-the-fact; healing. If people want, I have an option set up in Rawr so that you can increase the amount of threat/Rage generation which in turn increases FR usage. It is currently set to full mitigation (0%) but if people feel the need for more rage, set it all the way to the right (100%). If people want to try that out I'm all ears for suggestions and feedback.

    I've also set up in the optimization menu the ability to say how much RPS you want. all of this is Live in the latest release of Rawr.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2012-10-26 at 02:29 PM.

  10. #150
    Couple quick things

    - The 66.6% uptime is only after the 42 sec mark of a fight. Starting with three charges lets us going 100% uptime for the first 42 seconds. After that is the 66.6%. Personally I never hit this because of things like tanks swaps, watching swing timers, boss casts or even just moving out of melee range for a mechanic.

    - I've done the math to show that we get more mitigation from crit then dodge. Again dodge only works for "dodgable" damage so this makes RPS more desirable because we have the option to use FR. Using your points on something that isn't that much of your incoming damage doesn't make sense when you get more and have the option for FR. I've even done the math when SD becomes better than FR depending on how much of your incoming damage is "dodgable"

    - I know this all seems weird, I agree, but we've got to min/max.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    If people want, I have an option set up in Rawr so that you can increase the amount of threat/Rage generation which in turn increases FR usage. It is currently set to full mitigation (0%) but if people feel the need for more rage, set it all the way to the right (100%).
    The problem with full phys mitigation (at least from my non-heroic progression pov) is there's rather few pure physical mitigation fights so far, the one that come to mind is Gara'jal the Spiritbinder, and maybe Will of the Emperor on some phases. Otherwise the fights have a rather significant component of incoming damage that can't be dodged.

    A ratio of 80% non-dodge-able to 20% dodgeable damage makes gearing/reforging for dodge a poor choice. That's how the 'max rage to fuel FR usage' build came about.

  12. #152
    Exactly, and it's not like you lose dodge. From my math I get more overall dodge from 1 crit than I do for 1 dodge.

  13. #153
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    maybe so. And probably what I really need to do is to update the boss handler with each of the fights, then after that re-order the module so that it better evaluates dots (bleeds), magic damage, and physical damage. Dots and Magic damage would push more FR usage. Finding an uptime between the two would push the amount of times used by FR and SD. And that is probably what I need to do. Unfortunetly, I've been extremely busy last month (started a new full-time job the day before MoP was released; and having so little time between that and raiding has pushed new Rawr dev to the sideline).

  14. #154
    Sorry too much math here I would like to ask what are the exact stats weight we need to input for AskMrRobot?? (the default PVE ones are wrong)

    Thanks!

  15. #155
    Tova, I indicated (as a function of a question) that more stamina = more FR healing. Apparently, I was (and am still not clear on) confusing minimum healing, with total healing. I still don't understand Gerzek's statement: -Stamina does not, repeat, DOES NOT affect healing for frenzied regen in any noticable way. It increases the MINIMUM amount of healing. This means that you are literally taking no damage and have no vengeance..

    How does healing damage done translate into taking no damage, and therefore no vengeance? Is frenzied regen somehow acting as a death knight's blood shield?

    Aside from that, Tova, one question that popped into my mind, while reading through some of your responses: You keep referring to FR healing as damage mitigation. Considering that FR healing is post-damage mitigation, whereas mastery and dodge provide pre-damage mitigation, have you derived some coefficient to apply to FR's mitigation? To clarify, I'm assuming the following:

    - Bear has 450k health. Boss hits bear for 500k damage, unmitigated.

    Mastery pre-damage mitigation: (Physical) attack is reduced by armor; bear lives.
    Dodge pre-damage mitigation: (Physical) attack is dodged, completely; bear lives.

    FR healing post-damage mitigation: WoW client applies 500k damage, before any healing can be done; bear dies.


    So, it seems to me, that you might be calculating FR healing done, as the same value of mitigation, as armor and dodge. Yes/no? I'm not sure if coefficient would be a mathematically correct term, but pre and post damage mitigation seem, to me, like they should have some sort of variation in their value.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    Tova, I indicated (as a function of a question) that more stamina = more FR healing. Apparently, I was (and am still not clear on) confusing minimum healing, with total healing. I still don't understand Gerzek's statement: -Stamina does not, repeat, DOES NOT affect healing for frenzied regen in any noticable way. It increases the MINIMUM amount of healing. This means that you are literally taking no damage and have no vengeance..

    How does healing damage done translate into taking no damage, and therefore no vengeance? Is frenzied regen somehow acting as a death knight's blood shield?

    Aside from that, Tova, one question that popped into my mind, while reading through some of your responses: You keep referring to FR healing as damage mitigation. Considering that FR healing is post-damage mitigation, whereas mastery and dodge provide pre-damage mitigation, have you derived some coefficient to apply to FR's mitigation? To clarify, I'm assuming the following:

    - Bear has 450k health. Boss hits bear for 500k damage, unmitigated.

    Mastery pre-damage mitigation: (Physical) attack is reduced by armor; bear lives.
    Dodge pre-damage mitigation: (Physical) attack is dodged, completely; bear lives.

    FR healing post-damage mitigation: WoW client applies 500k damage, before any healing can be done; bear dies.


    So, it seems to me, that you might be calculating FR healing done, as the same value of mitigation, as armor and dodge. Yes/no? I'm not sure if coefficient would be a mathematically correct term, but pre and post damage mitigation seem, to me, like they should have some sort of variation in their value.
    That 500K would not kill the tank it will still be be mitigated by w/e armor the bear has then FR would heal it up Problem with our mastery is it takes a double dip on diminishing returns (Level gap reduction and standard diminishing return from armor). Problem with Dodge and Mastery is they only reduce over all melee damage take by avoiding it or reducing it. But in this teir a majority of the dmg going out from bosses is Bleeds, DoT's, and spell dmg which mastery/dodge do nothing for.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    Tova, I indicated (as a function of a question) that more stamina = more FR healing. Apparently, I was (and am still not clear on) confusing minimum healing, with total healing. I still don't understand Gerzek's statement: -Stamina does not, repeat, DOES NOT affect healing for frenzied regen in any noticable way. It increases the MINIMUM amount of healing. This means that you are literally taking no damage and have no vengeance..

    How does healing damage done translate into taking no damage, and therefore no vengeance? Is frenzied regen somehow acting as a death knight's blood shield?

    Aside from that, Tova, one question that popped into my mind, while reading through some of your responses: You keep referring to FR healing as damage mitigation. Considering that FR healing is post-damage mitigation, whereas mastery and dodge provide pre-damage mitigation, have you derived some coefficient to apply to FR's mitigation? To clarify, I'm assuming the following:

    - Bear has 450k health. Boss hits bear for 500k damage, unmitigated.

    Mastery pre-damage mitigation: (Physical) attack is reduced by armor; bear lives.
    Dodge pre-damage mitigation: (Physical) attack is dodged, completely; bear lives.

    FR healing post-damage mitigation: WoW client applies 500k damage, before any healing can be done; bear dies.


    So, it seems to me, that you might be calculating FR healing done, as the same value of mitigation, as armor and dodge. Yes/no? I'm not sure if coefficient would be a mathematically correct term, but pre and post damage mitigation seem, to me, like they should have some sort of variation in their value.
    If an attack is dodgable, then yes more mast/dodge will increase chance of surviving. There are 2 issues with that logic though. 1st, not all attacks are physical. More importantly, no hit will kill you outright, they don't want tanks being 1-shot (with a few exceptions where your supposed to move or use a cooldown.) The whole point of mitigation is to reduce the load on your healers, to save their mana or help with HPS burst. FR healing does this, and does it for all damage, and since you won't be 1-shot and FR is off the GCD, it is almost as good as not taking the damage at all.

    "-- Frenzied Regeneration and Shield Barrier’s formulae have changed to:
    Frenzied Regeneration at 60 rage: max(2*(AP-Agi*2), Sta*2.5)
    Shield Barrier at 60 rage: max(2*(AP-Str*2), Sta*2.5)
    "
    This means that whatever is bigger, 2.5xSTA, or 2xattack power will be your heal. So when you have no vengence, that will probably be 2.5Sta, but really quickly becomes AP scaled.

    Tova, your saying Crit>dodge per point for effective dodge, but that only applies when you are below max SD uptime. After that your only getting FR mitigation and DPS, unless I am missing something.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by ajanu View Post
    Tova, your saying Crit>dodge per point for effective dodge, but that only applies when you are below max SD uptime. After that your only getting FR mitigation and DPS, unless I am missing something.
    Yup of course. Couple quick things about max uptime. There first the 42 sec rule. For the first 42 sec of a fight you can have 100% time with 10 RPS. After that the number is 66.6%. For me I never get to the point and am always aiming for that 10 RPS because of other mechanics where you don't need to refresh all the time in that first 42 sec so you then extend the time when you can theoretically can have 100% whenever you want.

    On top of that extra rage is always good, except where you get into the SD vs FR breaking point. What I tend to do is look at the dodge stat weight and adjust it to how much is dodgeable.

    Of course we can go into special case about say Spiritbind but I think everyone is smart here. We get the idea.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by hexaq View Post
    The problem with full phys mitigation (at least from my non-heroic progression pov) is there's rather few pure physical mitigation fights so far, the one that come to mind is Gara'jal the Spiritbinder, and maybe Will of the Emperor on some phases. Otherwise the fights have a rather significant component of incoming damage that can't be dodged.

    A ratio of 80% non-dodge-able to 20% dodgeable damage makes gearing/reforging for dodge a poor choice. That's how the 'max rage to fuel FR usage' build came about.
    Again while doing testing, with Rawr if you still wish to go with a full crit build set the Mitigation/Threat Option to 100%. Every single set I've tested with generates a near 7.5% Hit, 15% Exp, Full Blown Crit > Mastery > Haste = Dodge build. If you don't feel this is right, let me know.

  20. #160
    Again while doing testing, with Rawr if you still wish to go with a full crit build set the Mitigation/Threat Option to 100%. Every single set I've tested with generates a near 7.5% Hit, 15% Exp, Full Blown Crit > Mastery > Haste = Dodge build. If you don't feel this is right, let me know.
    To be fair, this varies wildly on the type of damage you're encountering. I'd probably keep Hit/Exp at the top always (because it's incredibly important, and easy to do), but after that things can change depending on your gear and the fight.

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